Talk:Maltese people

British Colony?

The point stated here about the "British Colony" thing is incorrect from a legal and political perspective, and something that the Maltese always resisted. The Maltese, who died by their thousands fighting Napoleon's revolutionary French forces, never asked fro Malta to become a "British Colony" but their representatives asked from day one to be allowed to govern their own internal affairs under British MILITARY PROTECTION in exchange for the military use of the island. Never was any sort of British ingerence in internal affairs or power over them asked for by the Maltese, was asked, and the idea that the Maltese asked to be a British COLONY is pure historical and legal gibberish promoted by those ignorant of Maltese historical and servile anglophiles with little national dignity.

Throughout all the period of British abused governance, the Maltese always and consistently asked for greater civil and national rights, self-determination and respect for their Latin and Italian ethnic and cultural patrimony which the British sought to eradicate after the Italian nation was being juridically united in the mid-19th. century. This can be verified through the British-commissioned Keenan report for example, issued in the 1880s circa which asked for the elimination of the centuries-old established Italian language, and the gradual removal of Italian and Sicilian terms from the Maltese language to make it a pure classical Arabic dialect.

British Colonial history in Malta, or rather its overwhelmingly negative side has been sidelined for political correctness sake.

Muslim or Arabic influences are a gross exaggeration. One cannot cast aside the identity of the people. The Maltese, like it or not, have in general an aversion for such influences, and Maltese nationalists didn't trust the British precisely because the latter wanted to promote the Arabic/Muslim idea in Malta. Accounts of racist attitudes towards the Maltese from the British are documented. The Maltese prior to British cultural manipulation had an Italian culture and this is still attested by those studying deeply Maltese ethnography and history in general.

Unfortunately the greatest cultural misdeed of the British has been to dupe the Maltese, particular the most uneducated classes, that anything Italian is foreign. Up to this day, bar some exceptions, those stricken with anglophilia are mostly from the uneducated lower classes. The reason for this is not merely a question of education or of appreciation of one's own culture. It arises from sociological and materialistic aspects. The British in fact, sought to employ only those who favoured them and the cultural policy of Anglicisation and de-Italianisation. This was even enacted through regolamentary/legislative measures in relation to civil employment as an example.

Regarding Muslim influences, I would only like to remind that throughout history Malta has fought a siege in 1429 circa against a force of 18,000 Saracens led by Kaid Ridavan, and a greater one comprised of around 45,000 Turkish and Saracen allies forces in 1565. Malta has also been termed Cattolicissima by the Popes, plus in the 1911 (or so) Catholic Encyclopedia it is highlighted that Malta had the greatest number of Catholic priestly and religious vocation in the whole world.

Plus, on a more personal note, associating a Maltese to an Arab or a Muslim, like it or not, is greatly offensive to a Maltese. In fact, when one is ugly in Malta it is often said "you look like an Arab". I'm not expressing value judgements here, just stating a social fact.

Turning to an ethnic consideration, it is a fact that the greatest number of ethnic Maltese surname are of Siculo-Italian origings. The most common surname in Malta is in fact CAMILLERI. Other very common Maltese surnames of Italian origins are GRECH, SPITERI, ATTARD, DEBONO, BONELLO, VELLA, PORTELLI, et cetera. With other less common such as de Giorgio, de Gabriale, de Battista, de Marco, and many many others. Nowhere here I am saying that there are no historical Arabic and Islamic influences. But, saying Islamic influences is incorrect, since that is a religious influence which in Catholic Malta is inexistent. Arabic influence as an ethnic aspect, is definitely present, but it is minoritarian and has been given too much emphasis by manipulative British in their cultural policies, and not suprisingly by those who were under their sway, such as the Malta Labour Party (indicative is the fact that the party's official name is to this day in English) who was actually aided by the British and who even proposed integration with the UK. Of relevance is the fact that in the integration period, prominent nationalists were threatened with internment if they kept writing against integration or did not change their views. Dott. Giorgio Borg Olivier, the nationalist "father of Independent Malta" was even offered (an attempt to corrupt) a seat in the British parliament, a worthy residence in the UK and the best schooling for his kids payed by the UK government if he turned in favour of integration with the UK. He, God be praised, declined. This episode is according to Dott. Victor Ragonesi, a renowned Maltese nationalist, personal secretary to Dott. Giorgio Borg Olivier, and ever-present during the Independence negotiations.

And how convenient for the English is it to merely state that Malta became a British colony and then acquired independence. That is practically a history of 164 years kept silent. Why not mention the numerous promises never maintained, the ridiculous costitutional grants which were taken away at will by the British, the SETTE GIUGNO which till nowadays is still a national feast in Malta. For those that do not know what that is, it is a remembrance of when British troops shot dead a number of Maltese civilian protestors who were protesting against the numerous misdeeds of the British, including the raising of taxes which practically meant that the Maltese could barely by bread to eat! Why not mention the numerous political persecutions, the behind the scenes political manipulations which are documented et cetera.

I guess that is enough info for now.

Merge

I agree that this entry should be moved to 'Malta'. Ravells 17:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

POV

I removed some non-neutral language, but I'm still not sure how neutral this article is. Looking through the article history, there seems to have been an attempt to remove references to Muslim influences. I don't know enough about Malta to judge, but it needs investigation. Cordless Larry 15:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

I do not understand why you are indicated that the article is non-neutral. Kindly cite Maltesedog 16:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey cmon. What about Maghrebis in the related people section? No need to deny it.--Burgas00 21:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Related Ethic groups

Okay, I'd like somebody to explain how exactly Maltese people are related to Arabs, apart from linguistically. Culturally? How? Genetically? How? One study that states that "more than half (50 %) of the Y chromosome lineages that are seen in today's Maltese population could have come in with the Phoenicians" proves absolutely nothing, I'm afraid. Marcus1234 11:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• The researchers are positive that over half of the Y-chromosomes of Maltese are of Levantine origin (i.e. not Arab), most likely Phoenicians considering it is known Phoenicians colonized and settled Malta for a very long period (and historically the only Levantine population to colonize the island). The areas outside of Canaan (Lebanon) with the most Phoenician input are areas where they are known to have most settled (i.e. Carthage (Tunisia) and Malta).

This study claims that English people have non-White blood. Other studies claim that British are pure Anglo-Saxon. Other studies claim that the British mostly originated from the Iberian peninsula. So my point is pretty evident: These DNA studies are far from accurate. I think we all agree that there are no accurate studies regarding the genetic composition of Maltese people at present (although we can assume from surnames; incidentally, Spanish [who you wrongly believe have nothing to do with Maltese people] surnames are quite common in Malta.

• That link is NOT a reliable source for anything and is total garbage compared to the soruce I used from National Geographic. NO studies claim that the people of Britain are "Iberian" in the modern context, only that they have descendants from Upper Paleolithic men who resided in an Iberian refuge (as wel las other regions) periodically during the last Ice Age. Look, I have never heard that Spanish surnames are as common in Malta as you claim and they have no record of settling Malta in significant numbers. A surname doesn't mean anything with regards to the composition of a population, especially when its only in a minority. The study I provided is a an accurate and reliable study and clearly shows a Maltese-Phoenician connectoin that supports historical information on Phoenician settlement. No other region outside of Lebanon (where most people acknolwedge they are descended from Phoenicians) has Phoenician Y-chromosome input as high as in Malta. Linguistically, Maltese is most similar to Tunisian Arabic and Tunisians also have significant ancestry from the Pheonicians. In terms of language, culture and ancestry, Maltese are definitely related to Lebanese and Tunisians. 69.157.107.88 11:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, culturally, please explain how Maltese people are related to Arabs, and provide a source if possible. Marcus1234 11:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• All you need to read is the history of Malta to answer that and what exactly the Arabs brought to Malta. They had a huge cultural and linguistic impact in Malta not seen in other regions like Sicily and Spain where the Arab occupation was even longer. In any case, even if you don't want to cite that Maltese are related to all Arabs, they are definitely related to Lebanese and Tunisians (both populations were only Arabized and have very little if any descent to Arabs) via common Phoenician ancestry. 69.157.107.88 11:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I think we shouldn't add the "related ethnic groups" because there isn't enough evidence that shows to whom we are related - I think it's all a subjective matter anyway. The Greek people article also does not include a related ethnic groups section, probably because there is a debate surrounding the issue. Marcus1234 11:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Greeks is a wholly different case considering they have a language isolate and a very distinct culture that has been continuous since ancient times. Maltese speak a language and have had cultural influence from other groups outside Malta, including Arabs. In terms of ancestry, we know from history and from genetic studies that maltese descend significantly from Phoenicians, so in termso fancestry, culture and language, they are very related to Lebanese and Tunisians and we know that they are also clearly related to Italians in terms of language, culture and ancestry. 69.157.107.88 11:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You only provided one source; a dubious study performed by some amateur. It proves nothing. If this study was of any significance, it would have been mentioned in the news, newspapers etc, but it wasn't. And you still failed to explain how the Maltese are culturally Arabs - what about our culture is Arabic? Relgion? Politics? Music? Cuisine? Dress code? Entertainment? The truth is none of these are influenced by Arabs. None. I have been to Arabic countries and I must say I always felt wholly out of place there. Marcus1234 12:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• That was a ridiculous comment. The source is by no means "dubious" or "amateur" and by claiming such you obviously didn't read the article whatsoever. I find it hysterical you claimed that if it was of any significance, it would be mentioned in the "news" or "newspapers". First of all, the article itself is from National Geographic, so it obviously was in the news, secondly, newspapers are nowhere considered as a reliable source when compared to an academic journal. The study I cited does prove quite a bit and is carried out by a respected geneticist from a respected University (Spencer Wells and Pierre Zalloua from the American University in Beirut), so how could you claim it is "amateur" ? LOL. I have provided a reliable source and links to Maltese hIstory to support what most people obviously recognize, while you only provided some garbage POV link to a newspaper article with no references and that has nothingto do with Maltese people. Also, by being related to Arabs does not mean Maltese are necessarily Arabs and there are many Lebanese who seak Arabic, but also don't even consider themselves Arabs because of their distinct non-Arab ancestry, especially amongst Lebanese christians. Tunisians and other North Africans were largely Arabized in language and culture but are of non-Arab origins, and are of predominantly Berber origins and retain Berber culture, even among Arabized Berbers. Maltese speak a Semitic language and are of very significant Phoenician descent which clearly links them to Lebanese and also to Tunisians. Considering the Maltese language is a Semitic language very similar to Tunisian Arabic, obviously there would also be Arab cultural influences as well. They are related to all Arabs in terms of language, but are specifically very closely related to Lebanese and Tunisians due to common Pheoenician ancestry and also share many cultural aspects with Tunisians. 69.157.107.88 12:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I would consider The National Geographic to be a reliable source of information. And what alias 69.157.107.88 is in some terms true, you can have Arabic ancestors but still have a very different cultures. I personally have Malay ancestors, but I feel out of place going to places where the Malay population is high. --Fishyghost 13:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The section is already there, but that study isn't enough to justify the inclusion of a "related ethnic groups" section, since, just like the Greek people article, there's a lot of controversy surrounding this issue. You can't just lump in the Maltese with the Arabs simply because there might be some genetic linkage according to one study, just like you can't lump in the Greeks with the Turks or Sicilians and Spaniards with Berbers. Therefore, it best not be included - it's not important or essential anyway. Marcus1234 16:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a link to appropriate resources and still keep the 'non-inclusion'. So that the viewer is given the information, but it isn't deemed important on a large scale as incorporating it onto the actual page. --Fishyghost 19:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The link and information is already there; the "Possible genetic links" section. Marcus1234 09:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Ha.. sorry, I wasn't looking. --Fishyghost 13:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Related groups

I can see why Greeks and Italians are included, but Spanish and Portuguese, just how ?

Maltese are related to Arabs in terms of culture, language and history and Maltese language is classified as Semitic.

They are particularly related to Lebanese and Tunisians, as I have show with some genetic evidence in the new "origins" section. Maltese descend primarily, or at least very significantly, from ancient Phoenician settlers, with other Neolithic, Italic, Greek and Arab elements. The Lebanese are almost entirely descended from the Phoenicians with minor Arab and Greek elements. The Tunisians are primarily Berber with some Phoenician (Carthaginian) and Arab admixture. Whether or not they are related to all Arab groups, in terms of language, culture and ancestry, Maltese are definitely related to Lebanese and Tunisians more than any other group, with the exeception of Italians. 69.157.107.88 11:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason why they were classed in the same league as Spaniards and Portuguese is because they, like the Greeks and Italians, are Southern Europeans. Now I agree that, clearly, this is not an accurate criteria to go by when piecing together ethnic correlations throughout that particular region. Iberians, arguably, share more in common ethnically with the French, Irish, Welsh and even Scottish than they do with Italians, Greeks and Maltese. However, if you take into account the dominance of the Roman Empire and the cultural impact that had throughout Southern Europe, it's understandable why they tend to be lumped together. This is the second aspect of ethnicity. This is typically how ethnicities are identified on sites like these. -Pubic Man

Proposition

Since you obviously take offence at being related to Arabs for some bizarre reason, how about I just exclude the Arab and Semitic classifications and use these groups that Maltese are most related to:

• Lebanese
• Tunisians

• Italians

69.157.107.88 12:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

79.1.191.206 04:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Not Arabic

While it is true that Maltese have a semitic language, historical some cultural influences from Arabs, Maltese people are by no means Arabic. For a Maltese person it is almost derogatory to be called Arabic, although there is respect towards the Arabic peoples. This comes from the times of the 1565 Siege when Ottoman Turks and Saracens attacked the islands. Mistakenly, they are recognised as Arabs, due to the common religion, Islam.

For example, the most common form of entertainment for the young generation is clubbing and raving. This is by no means Arabic, in fact in some Arabic countries it is considered a sin.

Oh, and by the way, since when did Maltese settle in Brazil, especially with such an amount? Tsum60 09:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

THE LAST POSTER IS OBVIOUSLY FROM THE USA

the country of redneck idiots who use the word "mixed" improperly. Having had some Phoenicians ancestry does not mean being "mixed". Maltese people are not like "Mestizos" or "Mulattos", they are 100% white and caucasian as the rest of European people. Being white does not mean only nordic, pastry with Anglo-Saxon descent! -Chiara 01/05/2007

Re: THE LAST POSTER IS OBVIOUSLY FROM THE USA

Will you please specify who is "The Last Poster"? Tsum60 09:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

this article is very stupid

Maltese people didn' t EXIST. There is a Maltese language, not people. The 80% of maltese are sicilian origin, look at the surnames! Gerald Strickland was english origin. Enrico Mizzi, edward De Bono and Ruzar Briffa were italian origin!

CIA World Fact Book

States that the Maltese are the "descendants of ancient Carthaginians and Phoenicians, with strong elements of Italian and other Mediterranean stock". So, they are indeed Semitic, as the Phoenicians are Semitic and the Carthaginians are just the Phoenician colonizers of North Africa. In any case, they are indeed related to Arabs, Jews, and quite possibly Berbers if the Carthaginians themselves mixed with the Berbers.

Please don't be ridiculous. The CIA factbook is merely basing that "fact" on the country's history. Marcus1234 18:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a reputable source, and all you have is a bigoted opinion.

Are you serious? The CIA factbook is indeed a reputable source when it comes certain contemporary statistics, but nothing else. With regards to ethnicity, the CIA factbook merely looks at the country's history, and that's it. There is virtually no evidence that suggests that Maltese people are Semitic peoples - in fact, it is considered offensive to describe a Maltese person as semitic. And by the way: The Phoenicians and Carthaginians settled in Malta 3000 years ago.

Having said that, I'll not revert your edit since Semitic generally can also (and generally does) refer to a lingiustic group, and since Maltese people speak a Semitic tongue, the description is still perfectly appropriate. Marcus1234 07:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversy re Maltese origins

As evidenced by this talk page, there continues to be considerable controversy and uncertainty regarding the ethnic origins of the Maltese. The controversy itself is significant in its own right and, in my view, warrants a mention in the article. I've taken a stab at describing the sources of the controversy, which I would ask those of you who are interested in this issue to review and comment on. I have also added some information about a 2005 study by notable geneticists, which disputes the "Phoenician origins" theory. lamato^(talk) 05:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Genetics?

This part in the "genetics" is more to do with politics, and does not belong in that section.

By contrast, history books published during the Mintoff years following Independence began to question the earlier beliefs in a continuous, indigenous population of Christian Maltese and, in some cases, quietly promoted the theory of closer cultural and ethnic ties with North Africa. This new development was noted by Boissevain in 1991:

...the Labour government broke off relations with NATO and sought links with the Arab world. After 900 years of being linked to Europe, Malta began to look southward. Muslims, still remembered in folklore for savage pirate attacks, were redefined as blood brothers.

This latter development coincided with and reflected dramatic new (but short-lived) developments in Maltese foreign policy: Western media reported that Malta appeared to be turning its back on NATO, the United Kingdom, and Europe generally; Libya had loaned several million dollars to Malta to make up for the loss of rental income which followed the closure of British military bases in Malta; Malta and Libya had entered into a Friendship and Cooperation Treaty, in response to repeated overtures by Gaddafi for a closer, more formal union between the two countries; and, for a brief period, Arabic had become a compulsory subject in Maltese secondary schools.

I don't see what this has to do with who the Maltese are, all it says is Libya gave them some money. If people from Germany gave Malta some money, that wouldn't make the Matlese genetically German either. Same as if China gave Malta money, it wouldn't make the Maltese suddenly asian. Politics and genetics need to be seperated. - The Daddy 19:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that there is more politics than genetics in the segment quoted above. However, sweeping generalities about the ethnic origins of the Maltese can be dangerous, unless the reader is given an opportunity to explore the political motivation and the background for the statements that are cited. The point that I was trying to make with this segment (albeit in a clumsy manner) was that the prevailing arguments about the origins of the Maltese people have changed over time, and frankly, these changes have often been motivated by political expediency. The theory that Maltese and Arabs were "blood brothers" came as a surprise to many Maltese who lived through tumultuous times in the 1970s and 1980s in Malta. Malta is, and always has been, a melting-pot of societies and ethnic groups, from north, south, east and west. Political, religious and social leaders throughout Malta's history have exploited the resulting uncertainties regarding ethnic origin for a variety of reasons. I think this particular fact, in and of itself, is worth exploring in this article, but would welcome other viewpoints. lamato^(talk) 23:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)