Talk:Apartheid/Archive 4

Older discussions about apartheid has been moved to:

Talk:Apartheid/Israel
Talk:Apartheid/Archive1
Talk:Apartheid/Archive2
Talk:Apartheid/Archive3

Jewish settlement

I've removed "European Jews" as 18th century settlers of South Africa. No reason to give them special mention, any more than we distinguish between Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans when we mention the German settlement. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

--The Jews themselves view their settlement in S. Africa as distinct from the Dutch, English, etc. See Jewish Virtual Library

Located on the tip of the African continent, South Africa is famous for its diamond and gold mines. Cape Town, South Africa’s first city, was founded in 1652 by the Dutch to provide fresh produce and meats to the members of the Dutch East India Company, who were traveling between Europe and the Orient. In 1806, the colony switched hands and became part of the British Empire. Discoveries of gold and diamonds changed South Africa from an agricultural society to modern metropolis.

Jews have been a part of South Africa’s development from the very beginning. Portuguese Jewish cartographers and scientists contributed to Vasco Da Gama’s discovery of the Cape of Good Hope in 1497. A number of non-professing Jews were among the first settlers of Cape Town in 1652, despite restrictions against the immigration of non-Christians.

Religious freedom was granted by the Dutch colony in 1803 and guaranteed by the British in 1806. Among the first British settlers to come to Cape Town were 20 Jews. The first South African Jewish congregation was founded in 1841 in one of the homes of the new British settlers. Eight years later, the first synagogue, Tikvat Israel ("Hope of Israel" - referring to the Cape of Good Hope) was established in Cape Town and is still standing today.

Jews prospered during the apartheid era and were more educated than their white counterparts. More than 50 percent of the Jews were matriculated, compared to the average 23% in the total white population. Ten percent of the Jewish community had university degrees, compared to only 4% of the total white population. Jews were disproportionately represented in the commercial and financial sectors of society. The Jewish population peaked in the early 1970's reaching nearly 119,000 people. [1]

While Jews were present in the earliest settlement, their presence was not particularly significant in the early stages. They were tiny minorities for most of that time; they only really immigrated in significant numbers in the 20th century, and even then they never exceeded 3% of the European population of South Africa. One could also claim that Brazil and the United States were founded by Jews, based on tiny numbers of Jews (mostly marrano and Sephardi) that settled in those countries in the 17th and 18th centuries, but this would be a misleading view of their numbers, impact, and significance. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:02, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

The math is pretty clear. Even at their peak numbers -- 119,000 -- that represents around 2% of the European population of the time. They barely show up as a blip, demographically. So what if they were more educated etc.? Now, if the anon is trying to make a point that Jews were complicit in apartheid in South Africa, feel free to present evidence for that. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Jpgprdon: That's revisionist history. The Jews and Jewish employers were a part of the apartheid apparatus: "Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system.."

In fact, the one place Jews were particularly prominent was in the anti-apartheid movement (e.g. Helen Suzman, Joe Slovo, Ronnie Kasrils, Albie Sachs), so it would be much easier to make the opposite argument. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, there and the awesomely abusive diamond industry... --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Christians, in that case; they all converted to Anglicanism in the 30s. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Jayjg: There were many people of all races involved in anti-apartheid activities, not just the small group of Jews that you mentioned. This does not however diminish the fact that European Jews actively participated in the Apartheid regime as Whites, politically and economically, same as the "English", "Dutch", "Germans", etc. that are mentioned. Jayjg, one must be truthful and look at the issue from the perspective of the Blacks who considered the Jews as White, and a part of the Apartheid regime. Please do not continue deletions. 69.216.245.115

Why should we single out Jews for special mention when speaking of European immigrants anyway? To me that sounds rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jewish South Africans in perpetrating Apartheid, which is rather unnecessary considering the fact that they formed such a miniscule proportion of the White population. Also, I see nothing in Jayjg's comment that even looks remotely like minimising the role of other races in the Anti-Apartheid Movement. In contrast, all I see is a point (a valid one, might I add) that there were many prominent Jews in that movement. For instance, from the same source you got your quote from, comes the following: "An example of individual Jewish involvement in anti-apartheid movement is the arrest of 17 members of the African National Congress, in 1963, for anti-apartheid activities, all five whites arrested were Jewish." This is in contrast to your own comment, where you claim that they "were a part of the apartheid apparatus" (so was virtually anybody living in SA at the time, technically), while seemingly completely ignoring the fact that a decent portion of the community was involved in Anti-Apartheid activities. While it's true that as a whole, the Jewish community did not speak out against Apartheid (since when has the South African Jewish community, or any other ethnic community for that matter, had one voice on any issue?), in 1985 the South African Jewish Board of Deputies (without a doubt a very important organisation) passed a resolution rejecting Apartheid. So it's not quite true to insinuate that the community as a whole was quiet. Impi 18:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is singling out anybody. It's being more accurate and inclusive. It is the Jews themselves that saw themselves as distinct from the English, Dutch, Germans, etc. Would it be more accurate to say Lithuanian Jews? like the South African Jews do amongst themselves? In being inclusive and factual, it does not overemphasize anything, that is only your interpretation. 119,000 people is not "miniscule". It sounds like you are being anti-semitic in diminishing the accomplishments and contributions of Jewish people to South African history. S. Africa's Jewish community has always been one that Jewish people have taken pride in. There were many White people involved in anti-apartheid activities on a worldwide basis. The emigration of Jews out of South Africa is directly and statistically correlated to the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of. Let's not make a special exception here. History is history and "Jews" were involved in apartheid right alongside the "Dutch", "English", and "Germans".69.216.245.115

The sentence you quoted was from a website whose subject was, quite specifically, the history of Jews in South Africa, so the distinction of which you speak would obviously be valid on such a page. It is, however, not valid here. Regardless of the achievements of South Africa's Jewish population, which has occurred on a scale dwarfing their relatively small population size, the fact remains that as a percentage of the White population they are too statistically insignificant to be afforded such a prominent place in the article. After all, you might as well start to write a demographics article about South Africa then, breaking down in detail every type of immigrant group that established themselves in South Africa. I would suggest it would look rather farcical to have the article distinguish between Protestant and Catholic Germans, and do the same for the Dutch and the others. Quite simply, the opening paragraph for the section on Apartheid's history only lists the MAIN White immigrant groups to South Africa, for it is their descendants who naturally formed the majority of South Africa's White population. We don't mention the Irish, Italian, Belgian or Portuguese immigrants for this reason. Therefore there is no reason to specifically mention European Jews in that intro paragraph.

I also find it ironic that you accuse me of apparent anti-semitism, and yet you are the one who automatically assumes that those Jews who have emigrated from South Africa post-1994 have done so "because of the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of". On the contrary, there are numerous logical reasons for any South African Jew to leave South Africa, including a significantly increased violent crime rate. So I now have to question your motives, as your automatic assumption that Jewish emigration is motivated, at least in part, by racism, and your continued effort to attempt to list the South African Jews as major perpetrators of Apartheid, absence proper evidence to the contrary, do not seem to be the hallmarks of a neutral editor.

Oh, and please sign your posts from now on by typing ~~~~ at the end of your posts, as this helps readers distinguish between the comments of different editors as well as creating a time record so as to avoid confusion. Impi 20:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Your points are all quite valid. In addition, I might point out that South African Jews were not just "involved in anti-apartheid movement", but were prominent leaders of it, often at considerable personal risk to themselves. I'm also interested in understanding our anonymous editors claim that "from the perspective of the Blacks" Jews were considered "a part of the Apartheid regime." Does he have evidence of that? Is he speaking for South African blacks? Based on the long and varying history of edits by this editor on this subject, it all seems like an attempt to distort and even reverse the historical record. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I might also point out the large number of Whites worldwide that contributed to the "anti-apartheid" movement. Remember Bono? And what about the Blacks themselves? Gee. Jayjg: To me you sound rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jews in ending apartheid, but of having no part in it. We all know that is not.69.216.245.115

Sorry, what does your response have to do with my post? South African Jews were not just "involved in anti-apartheid movement", but were prominent leaders of it, often at considerable personal risk to themselves. Where is your evidence that "from the perspective of the Blacks" Jews were considered "a part of the Apartheid regime." Does you have evidence of that? Are you speaking for South African blacks? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I might point out that unlike yourself, Jayjg has made no specific edits to the page regarding Jews. All his comments have been on the discussion page only, and made in response to allegations by you. Impi 20:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Look, it is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth."

What bias are you trying to hide? South Africa had and contiues to have a "Jewish" community just like the "English", "Dutch", French" and "Germans". Why is this fact of history objectionable to you? There are thousands of sources that prove this true. Why do you object to this inclusion as outlined in the one sentence above?

Because you are trying to insert trivia for the purpose of promoting a POV; your edits and comments make this quite clear. And your proposed text is inaccurate trivia at that. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • That's your opinion Jayjg. Your edits and comments make it clear you promote a deletionist POV. I see from your user page that you have already been accused of bias before on Wikipedia.

It is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that.69.216.246.88 21:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I see you refused to reply to my statement. Quite simply, the intro lists the MAIN European immigrant groups that formed the White population of South Africa. Including the reference to European Jews is POV because it makes it seem that they had a disproportionate role in dominating the indigenous population. Including such a small group as the Jews in the intro would only make sense if one then included ALL white immigrant groups, such as the Italian, Irish, Polish, Portuguese etc. As you can see, it would quickly become unworkable, which is why, in the interests of accuracy and neutrality, we should only list the main groups, which are German, French, Dutch and English settlers. Doing otherwise would be the imposition of POV and inaccurate Impi 22:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Anon editor, you are being overbearing now. Trying to highlight Jews, a relative minority compared to the major settlers (highlighted by Impi and the other editors here), is simply presenting a skewed image. THAT is the reason why your edits are being reverted, not some evil deletionist strategy. Dewet 22:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Gentlemen: Overbearing is better applied to those who would delete and deny the existence and reference of the Jewish community in South African history. It is not anywhere near "unworkable" to include the European Jews, along with the Italian, Irish, Polish, and Portuguese, if you like, in the one sentence in the article. Please.

It is absolutely accurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. If you want to read something more into these words and simple facts, then that is your POV. 69.216.246.88

It's not "absolutely accurate" at all. It puts the "European Jews" immigration before that of the English, which is historically inaccurate. It also highlights a group which had no significant immigration in the 19th century, and only small amounts of immigration in the 20th century. And you still fail to answer any of the major objections raised to your POV insertions. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:56, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

• jayjg: Read the facts before you make inaccurate statements. European Jews immigrated to S. Africa in the 19th Century after diamonds were discovered. The Jews themselves wrote about it in their history of Jews in South Africa. Your deletions are unconvincing. Jews were an integral part of South Africa and its history.

Take your own advice. The groups you mentioned were trivial in comparison to the main immigrations, and your little list missed out all sorts of other important ethnic groups. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Non-Revisionist Jewish History

19th Century

The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields.

First Half of the 20th Century

During the Boer War, Jews served on both sides, although the arrival of English Jews helped out the British side. Some Boers harbored prejudices against the Jews, while others felt a kinship toward them. In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens, giving British authority legitimacy among Jews.

Following the mining boom, Jews became part of the rapid industrialization of South Africa. They became involved in food processing; clothing, textile and furniture manufacturing; insurance; hotel management; advertising and entertainment. Jews also established supermarkets, department stores and discount store chains.

See Jewish Virtual Library

Yes, small numbers of Jews emigrated to South Africa in the 20th century, along with all sorts of other Europeans. So what? Small numbers of Jews emigrated to to almost every country in the world in the 20th century. It has already been pointed out to you that this is a minor footnote in the history of South Africa; you have been trying to emphasize this trivia solely to push a POV. Please stop creating sockpuppets, and instead respect the consensus of the 9 editors (and counting) who have reverted you so far. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Protected due to the revert war. If this can be resolved, or the problematic parties removed from the situation, feel free to unprotect, but if I understand correctly blocking might not be adequate to deal with this one? --Michael Snow 20:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The editor in question is using dialup IPs, and has gone through at least 5 ip addresses and 5 sockpuppets as well. Blocking just forces him to re-boot. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Thank You Michael Snow, you indeed see the revert war that the Revert-Team members use to discourage input from others. How is an indivudual supposed to contribute to Wikipedia against a "gang"? Unfortunatly, jayjg and a few others abuse administration privileges by banning anyone immediately that their "gang" differs with. People will not submit to this intimidation by a biased group. jayjg ought to be banned for complete and utter bias, at least at a minimum from this article henceforth. Read the facts. There were many Jews along with the 1) English, 2) Dutch, 3) French, 4) Germans, and 5) other European settlers (that jayjg has no problems listing) that played an active role in the economic and political history of South Africa. To deny that Jews were active in politics and economics in the history of S. Africa is pure revision. Thank you Michael Snow, but unfortunately you froze the article with the Deletion and Revisionism in place.69.218.25.182 21:09, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The main immigrants were the Dutch and French, and later the English. I have no problem mentioning Europeans, because there were indeed small numbers of other Europeans. I don't see the point in mentioning the many sub-groups of Europeans, though, as that is trivia. I especially don't approve of mentioning only one particular sub-group of Europeans, purely for the purpose of POV-pushing. As for trying to "contribute" to Wikipedia against a "gang", when 9 separate editors revert your edits, it's time to start realizing that your "contribution" detracts from the article, rather than improving it. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, enough already. You don't "see the point", because you have a POV or a blind spot or something. The contributions of Jews to South Africa are numerous. Jews make up a minority/small percentage of every single country in which they dwell but Israel, but should we not acknowledge their contributions and presence in the histories of the USA? Britain? Canada?, Germany? etc? Jayjg, you are so POV it is laughable. On Wikipedia you want to push a POV that is Jewish-centric when you think it helps your bias, and you want to deny and revise on other occasions like this one.

The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. The Jews themselves saw their community as strong and distinct from the Europeans. Fact and History. That's the way it was. Reread history and I have provided you a Jewish source! So please stop the denial and revisionist history. See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html Jewish Virtual Library] again:

Apartheid Regime

With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities. 69.218.25.182 21:58, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the Jews were involved more than, say, the Chukchis, but that does not not necessarily wins them a place in an encyclopedia. Regarding the JVL quote: first, JVL concentrates on Jews because it is a Jewish Lib, and second, to refute conspiracy theorists and plain antisemites who insist on playing up "the Jewish hand" at every turn of the history, especially tragic ones. Your preoccupation with "the Jews" here tells more about yourself than about the subject. Sorry to note so, but you are not the first one and you are not in a good company. And of course, your motives are noble and moral, yeah right. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 23:17, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Humus sapiens: You do not have a crystal ball into the minds of others. Do you want me to give you my opinion of you? You have revealed yourself in the denier and revisionist camp. Your Talk page proves your huge preoccupation with the Jews, and it tells more about yourself than about your knowledge of S. African history. Your opinion is thus discredited for bias. Let's stick to the facts and history of S. Africa's economic and political history, which involves Jews every bit as much as the current list of: "Dutch, English, Germans, and French". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. Reread the links and highlighted facts above. Thank you. 69.209.236.191 19:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It's quite amusing that you would accuse others of being "in the denier and revisionist camp", of having a "huge preoccupation with the Jews", and state that their "opinion is thus discredited for bias". Thanks for the laugh. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

You again? Are you back from today's shuffleboard game? Thanks for all your laughs. Jayjg, whoever you are, you (and the "gang" that circumvents Wikipedia's 3R Rules) are the ones preoccupied with Jews and weaving Jewish distortion and revision into Wikipedia, as your Talk page and Wikipedia editing activities confirm. Are you going to deny this also? Denial of Jewish history in S. Africa, as outlined in the link provided, is just not factual and it will not fly, sorry.69.209.236.191 23:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Give it up already, anon. You are citing biased sources (the Jewish virtual museum, remember?), you have made your your bias towards the inclusion of Jews at the cost of obfuscating the article quite plain. Wikipedia operates on consensus, which you are not gaining, not through either your edit warring or your arguments. Insulting the users here certainly doesn't give you a moral high ground or make others more amenable. Think about that.

I suggest you come up with a new tactic if you wish to convince others of your opinion. One which isn't aggressive, and one which can be debated and fleshed out to gain a suitable standard for inclusion. Those are, unfortunately, the breaks, especially for articles on such a delicate topics as apartheid. Dewet 06:24, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Dewet: I have continually pointed to the facts, and I have been on the receiving side of the insults. "Thanks for all your laughs." The facts are above in bold. The inclusion of the Jewish community to the list of prominent ethnic groups in S. Africa's economic and political history is warranted and backed up by history. The inclusion under discussion involves one sentence in the whole article. This inclusion in no way skews the other facts or history or content of the article in a major way. Think about that. Let's start the debate already. Not one person, you included unfortunately, can provide any reasonable evidence that the Jewish community was not an integral part of S. Africa's economic and political landscape as the inclusion states. Raw numbers and statistical percentages never tell the correct and whole story, and that argument can be dismissed out of hand.69.209.236.191 15:02, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, to summarise: "Actual facts and figures, such as statistics, do not tell the story as I want it to be told, so we should ignore them. I believe in what I am doing, despite all arguments to the contrary, and anybody opposing me is just part of some POV-pushing gang, a revisionist and a denialist." - Yep, I think that's a close enough approximation. Anon, let me summarise our rebuttal for you: This is the article on Apartheid, not on South Africa. Therefore, any additions, or unwarranted attention given to any group, is inherently POV unless completely justified. The main European groups to move to South Africa were the Dutch, French, German and English, the descendants of these early colonists make up by far the majority of South Africa's white population. The number of European Jews that emigrated to South Africa are relatively small, and in fact are similar to the numbers of Italians, Portuguese, Irish and other groups who emigrated to SA. In order to make your inclusion fair, we would have to list each and every immigrant group that ever moved to SA in such numbers - a proposal that any logical person can see will be both unwieldy and unnecessary. In addition, I have to ask why you must separate European Jews into their own category. Were they not British, French, German, Italian etc? Judging by your proposals on this page, we had best start saying: "European Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics etc etc etc and the English followed in the 19th century." - Why can you not grasp how patently ridiculous this is? Impi 17:21, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Impi: you again? I was hoping for an unbiased, third-party contributor and not another one of your POV buddies. I can see this is going nowhere fast. You continue to avoid and evade the matter at hand: Kindly provide any reasonable evidence that the Jewish community was not an integral part of S. Africa's economic and political landscape as the inclusion states. Let's review the inclusion: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, Diaspora Jews and other European settlers followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth."

Why cannot you grasp that this is inclusive and accurate? S. Africa was settled by Dutch, Germans, French, English, other Europeans (Irish, Portuguese, Italians) and Diaspora Jews. Is this not a fact? What is your problem? It is not accurate to include Diaspora Jews in with the "Europeans" because history proves they were considered separate and distinct as an ethnic & religious group, it is confirmed by Jewish history and S. African history. Were there not different laws for "Europeans" and Jews in S. African history (answer: Yes), and then later the Jewish community was classified White during apartheid (answer: Yes)?

So: 1) They were seen as separate and distinct groups, so the inclusion is accurate and clear. 2) you cannot whitewash the activity and everyday complicity of the Jewish community during apartheid, right alongside the rest of the list of distinct groups. The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system. They were complicit in it.69.209.236.29 20:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What was the complicity of the Italian, Portugese, Irish, Scottish, etc. in apartheid? Was it greater or lesser than that of the Jews? How did their numbers compare? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's rather amusing to see you accusing other editors of being unbiased, Anon... Oh, and you forgot to sign your comments again. What's the matter? Afraid of being accountable for what you say?

The Jews fall easily under the "other European settlers" definition, just as the other groups do. They were European, and no different to any other European groups. By your logic, we should include other religious and ethnic groups too, for why should we differentiate between Jews, Catholics, Protestants etc?

Your only claim for the Jews being considered "separate and distinct" is a website that deals specifically with Jewish history. Of course that website is going to speak about Jews as separate and distinct, that's their chosen subject matter. Honestly, this is like taking a magazine article written about Rubens Barrichello and using it as proof that Rubens is separate from and distinct to the other F1 drivers...

In fact, for the entire history of South Africa as a country, Jews were subject to the SAME laws as other whites in South Africa. There were no separate laws for Jewish South Africans. Additionally, so what if they were classified as white? So were the Japanese immigrants - should we now add them to the awfully long list you seem to want to include?

This article is not the place to discuss the demographics of South Africa's population. That is all covered under the demographics section of the South Africa article, and it has NO place here.

The Jewish community was no more complicit than any other white group in South Africa, and in fact I'd say Jewish groups did the most of any of the small ethnic groups to try end Apartheid. For its size, the Jewish community produced an extraordinary number of anti-Aparthed groups and activists. Compare this, to say the Portuguese, Irish or Italian communities, who seldom if ever even expressed discomfort with the system.

Anon, your comments are sorely lacking in facts, and everything you have written on this page draws me to the conclusion that your sole motive is not historical accuracy but rather an attempt to pen the blame for a large part of Apartheid on the shoulders of the South African Jewish community, completely out of proportion to their actual involvement.

I'm sorry, but it's now clear that you're not an editor in good faith. Kindly stop wasting our time. Impi 20:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More lame POV responses from jayjg (who is heavily towards Jewish bias User:Jayjg/Edits) and Impi--Again. Yawn. How predictable. Let us never hear about a sublist of of "Jewish" Nobel Prize winners ever again. From now on they will all be Europeans or Americans, etc. Your deletions are obviously not in good faith and are obviously biased. 69.209.236.29 21:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Such tired ad hominems. Firstly Anon, you have been reverted by, amongst others, Weyes, Anilocra and SlimVirgin. In addition, your additions have been opposed on this page by, amongst others Dewet and myself. Are you now going to accuse us all of pro-Jewish bias? I would like to see you try. It's also very amusing, once again, to see you accusing me of bias. It's made my day, really.

Other than that, I have nothing more to say, except to refer you back to my above post. Impi 22:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Impi: you again? Yawn. jayjg is obsessed with jewish related issues on Wikipedia User:Jayjg/Edits. SlimVirgin has been accused of the same by others. It is not unusual to find them together operating as a team to avoid Wikipedia's 3 Revert rule. They are discredited. But back to the inclusion at hand......I have yet to have anyone explain why "europeans" and "diaspora jews" should be combined when it's clear that the communities were different and distinct. Let's not even get into the relationship between S. Africa and Israel and S. African Zionists. The "European" settlers and Jewish settlers were distinct groups and you know it.69.217.125.53 20:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Having a concentration of edits on one particular section of the 'pedia does not make you automatically biased, anon. In fact, I'd say that's what the majority of editors do here. After all, if an editor makes most of his edits to American fighter aircraft, because that is his area of expertise, does it now make the editor in question "biased" and unfit to edit any other articles to do with aircraft? Of course not.

Besides, your ad hominem attack completely ignored the other editors I mentioned. Are you going to accuse them of bias as well? Get real, it is YOU who is biased, anon, not everybody else.

You have yet to respond to any of the points raised in my previous post, so I have nothing more to say to you. If you're just going to respond by repeating the same old discredited lines, please stop wasting our time and go and harass somebody else. Impi 21:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ad hominem attacks, you should know. Impi you have provided no back-up for your deletion. None whatsoever. Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Please answer the question.

"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."

In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens.

Apartheid Regime

With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system69.217.125.53 19:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Haha, you have accused virtually every editor here of blatant Pro-Jewish bias, and in fact your last five or so comments regarding Jayjg and SlimVirgin have been nothing but ad hominem attacks. Yet now you complain that you're the victim of same? Get real, you haven't received half of what you've dished out. For the record, I have replied to your points in at least one post above, but you seem fond of ignoring such replies.

I also note you refer to the matter under discussion as "your deletion", implying that this is something I alone am pushing. This is incorrect. What is under discussion is an addition to a previously stable article that YOU and you alone have proposed, an addition which is opposed by at least five other editors. In short, consensus is not on your side, and your attempts to make it seem that we're the ones against consensus is laughable.

The only source you have quoted is the Jewish Virtual Library, a website dedicated to the history of Jews. As such, of course they speak of Jews as a distinct entity - that is their subject matter. This does not however mean that Jews at the time were distinct and separate. For example, there are a number of articles written about, say, Afrikaners in the Union Defence Force during World War II. These articles focus on Afrikaners, which may make it appear that they were a distinct and separate entity within the UDF, but such an impression is misleading as in the UDF itself there was no distinction made between English and Afrikaans South Africans. The same applies to the current situation: The Jewish Virtual Library speaks of Jews as a separate and distinct entity because the Jews of SA are their chosen subject matter in this article, but in South Africa at the time Jews were treated no differently under the law to any other White groups.

So what if the diamond and gold mines attracted many Jews? They attracted many, many more immigrants from other ethnic and religious backgrounds as well. This article will not mention them, becuase, as mentioned before, it is focusing on the history of South African Jews, not on the overall history of South Africa.

Your source also mentions that Jews were given equal legal status in 1910. Well, here's a history lesson for you: Prior to 1902, there were four separate countries within the region that would one day become South Africa. These were the British colonies of Natal and the Cape, and the independent Boer republics of the Transvaal and Orange Free State. Within the latter two states, only Boers were allowed to be citizens and thus have the rights of citizens (like voting). So ALL non-Boer Whites, whether they were Jewish or Irish or whatever, were discriminated against. Now, in 1910 the Union of South Africa was formed under an Afrikaner PM. This new state consisted of four provinces (Natal, Transvaal, the Cape, the Orange Free State), and enshrined equal rights under the law to ALL Whites. It was not as if it was suddenly decided that Jews had lesser rights and therefore needed to be made equal - the Jews always shared the same rights as non-Boer Whites and thus were elevated to full legal equality at the same time the Irish, Russian, English, American etc immigrants were.

Finally, we speak about the comment that: "as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system". My answer to this is: So what. Not a single ethnic or religious group in South Africa was unanimous in its condemnation of Apartheid, not even any of the Black South African groups (after all, Black South Africans joined the SADF and were deployed to the SWA-Angola border, and some Black leaders from all the groups collaborated with the Apartheid government to run the Homelands). So when you tell me that the Jewish community as a whole did not speak out against Apartheid, I ask with incredulity whether you actually consider that to be damning evidence...

In fact, considering its size, the South African Jewish community probably spoke out against Apartheid more than any other of the White groups in South Africa. For example, a large proportion of the White anti-Apartheid campaigners were Jewish (Helen Suzman, Ronnie Kasrils, Ruth First, Joe Slovo, Arthur Chaskalson and Harry Bloom are just a few that come to mind). In addition, the South African Jewish Board of Deputies issued a declaration condemning Apartheid in 1985, which is something none of the other minority White groups (such as the Portuguese and Italians) did.

Really, there's nothing more to debate here. You insist on using a source that focuses on one ethnic group as evidence for the wider history of SA, which is quite patently absurd, and furthermore you continue to modify the article in contravention of the consensus - which is clearly against you. Kindly expend your efforts elsewhere, as it is clear that your POV addition to this article is not accepted by the majority of editors involved. Impi 23:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Impi, I think you are still missing the point: Clarity. Here's the list in the article that you so "vehemently" object to:

  "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century."

That's it. So......in other words if the term "European settlers" stays in, then someone might not otherwise know that S. Africa had an important, thriving Jewish community also. To list the Jewish community alongside the other groups is being factual and inclusive, and it's adding clarity to the article. How can you not see that? You have to look at the statement/change itself. Since when is adding minor clarity (2 words) to an article a massive rewrite or throwing it off NPOV? It is not. It adds simple, concise and accurate clarity and you know it. Read the sentence again. I believe you are reading far too much into it. The Jewish community existed, separate and distinct from the Dutch, Germans, French, English and other Europeans. You know it. How is that so objectionable? It's being clear. A Jewish community did exist and does exist, separate and distinct, and that's all the 2 word Inclusion states.AmYisrael 00:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unprotecting

As there seems to be no ongoing meaningful discussion here, I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:34, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Until the deletionist can justify that action, the inclusion should remain in place as it is accurate. Deletionist: Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Thank you.

Anon (or is it AmYisrael now?), when you could have made a constructive effort to make a case for your changes, you instead chose to tire everyone out with your constant bickering. You don't have any standing with which you will convince me of your good intent now, and I'm sure that a number of the other editors here share my view. Dewet 21:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dewet: Likewise. I see that nobody can or will justify the deletion campaign other than based on ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to the facts, not ad hominem attacks. So again: Facts have been put forward to justify the Inclusion, no facts have been put forward to justify the Deletions.AmYisrael 21:45, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Perhaps none that satisfy you. However, the consensus here (and remember, consensus quite often means "everybody but you") is satisfied that your addition is improper. That's how it works here. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More ad hominem nonsense. Jpgordon stick to the facts and kindly stop personal attacks. The consensus is based on ad hominem illogic as there is no support put forth to support the Deletions, just personal attacks.

• There is no ad hominem whatsoever in my statement, nor anything that any reasonable mind could construe as a personal attack -- merely a reiteration of the consensus aspect of Wikipedia; it doesn't matter how strongly you hold your opinion, or even, for that matter, if your opinion is wrong or right. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jews as part of White Ruling Class in South Africa

According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:

"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority. Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30

AmYisrael 00:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• So write about that in an article on the history and demographics of South Africa. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Please reread the Inclusion that you so oppose. It is in the context of exactly what you state.AmYisrael 00:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)