Talk:Pan Am Flight 103 conspiracy theories

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Is there still a case against Libya?

Now that Ulrich Lumpert has admitted lying about the Mebo timer fragment (the only piece of hard evidence linking Libya to the Lockerbie bombing), where does that leave the prosecution's case against the convicted Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi (who is still in Greenock prison) and the compensation paid by Libya ($2.16 billion) to the relatives of the 270 victims of Pan Am Flight 103?Phase4 21:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

You are kidding right? This one "lie" was a technicality concerning ONE piece of evidence (no one ever disputed the fact that MEBO did supply Libya with 20 MST-13 timers). There is a mountain of evidence linking the convicted person to the crime, not to even mention the mountains of circumstantial evidence, including:

• 1988 Bombing of UTA Flight 772 (3 months prior to Pan Am 103)
  • Libyans convicted in French court!!!
  • Also present was traces of pentrite (Semtex) and samsonite suitcase
  • Libya "accepted responsibility for the actions of its officials" in 2003, [1]
• 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing
  • 2 Weeks after class between American and Libyan vessels in Gulf of Sidra
  • Libyans convicted in German court
• Libya imported 700 tonnes of Semtex (use in UTA 772 and Pan Am 103) from 1975 to 1981

Oh no, let us all ignore facts, pattern of behavior (Libyan retaliation, blowing up of passenger jets, discotheques) and convictions in French, German and Scottish courts respectively and rather dream up fanciful alternative such as some bizarre conspiracy, which — as all conspiracy theories — never accounts for the evidence, patterns, previous convictions or even admissions of guilt only one or two perceived anomalies).

If this is not enough, let us at least stick to the Wikipedia rules regarding attribution and original research. --Deon Steyn 11:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Erwin Meister and Edwin Bollier admitted to the Scottish Court in the Netherlands that Mebo had supplied 20 MST-13 timers to Libya in 1985. But, I'm not sure where the "mountain of evidence" or those "mountains of circumstantial evidence" are located. And, to correct you, UTA Flight 772 came nine months after Pan Am Flight 103.

It is now for the Scottish Court of Criminal Appeal to decide whether Megrahi's conviction is to be overturned. If it decides there has been a miscarriage of justice and Megrahi is freed from jail, the question posed above (is there still a case against Libya?) will need to be answered by Britain and the United States.Phase4 13:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the original argument, the entire case doesn't rest on one piece of evidence. There is still the presence of a Libyan intelligence agent at an airport en route, his clothes and suitcase etc. etc. etc. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming: Libyans having been convicted in two other countries of two separate bombings (one almost identical to the Pan Am bombing), Libya having bought timers and tonnes of Semtex and Libya having accepted responsibility for this and the other bombings. Please explain to me which other party also bought timers and semtex and bombed two airlines and a discotheque over this 3 year period AND were convicted of (in three separate countries) and admitted to these incidents??? --Deon Steyn 07:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I merely posed the question (is there still a case against Libya?). You clearly think there is still a very strong case.

Because of the doubts raised in the SCCRC's 800-page report about Tony Gauci's identification evidence in respect of Megrahi, and now the admission of lying by Ulrich Lumpert about the timer fragment and the MST-13 timer, I think the case against Megrahi is seriously flawed – a view with which the Glasgow Herald and the Observer appear to agree.

As we know, the other accused Libyan, Fhimah, was acquitted of the Lockerbie bombing. If, as seems likely, Megrahi's conviction is about to be overturned, then Libya's 2002 letter to the UN accepting responsibility "for the actions of its officials" for Pan Am Flight 103 and UTA Flight 772 looks to have been a shrewd diplomatic move. To maintain the case against Libya, it seems to me that another prosecution will have to be mounted.Phase4 10:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Being responsible for something and being found guilty in a court of law are two different things, ask O.J. Simpson ;-) And I suspect all reasonably minded people or objective observers will — regardless of legal manoeuvring or technicalities — believe Libya to be behind this incident(s). The only other vaguely plausible alternative is Libyan agents acting independently of the state as part of some terrorist organization, but even this alternative is contradicted by the targets and timing of these incidents (after confrontation with US or France respectively), the tech involved (MEBO timers, Semtex) and the fact that the Libyan government refused to (in all three cases) hand over suspects. This leaves only one conclusion; that of well planned government supplied, staffed and sanctioned acts. I reiterate: various independent authorities (France, Germany, Scotland) investigated alternatives in the various cases and all came to the same investigative and legal conclusions. --Deon Steyn 11:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing newspaper scans

I see Deon Steyn that you have today removed the iDAG newspaper scans from the alternative theories article. This cannot be for copyright reasons because the Swedish journalist, Jan-Olof Bengtsson, gave permission for these iDAG articles to be used. Please explain why you removed them.Phase4 13:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the images, because they aren't in English and as I understand Wikipedia's guidelines, it is an ENGLISH language resource. I have no idea what those articles mean or say. If you can find some guidelines that states it is okay to include scans of unreadable foreign language newspapers you can restore them (only much smaller thumbnail size).--Deon Steyn 07:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

In principle, I can't see anything wrong with foreign newspaper articles in Wikipedia English language articles, but I take your point about the issue of size. As a compromise solution, I've linked the iDAG newspaper scans from the alternative theories article to the journalist Jan-Olof Bengtsson's biography where, I guess, they rightfully belong.Phase4 22:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Y Good. You might want to resize them in the Jan-Olof Bengtsson, the page payout looks a little messy... or perhaps use a gallery template (Help:Image#Gallery tag, category, table of images)? --Deon Steyn 07:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for these interesting suggestions. I've resized the images.Phase4 14:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Very biased

> Muammar al-Gaddafi's Libya has a long and well-documented history of support for international terrorism. An indisputable fact is that, during the 1970s and 1980s, Gaddafi supplied large quantities of Libyan weapons and explosives to the Provisional Irish Republican Army. <

These two sentences of the article are NOT logically connected! Supporting military means of gaining independence and unity to the entire Irish Islands is NOT terrorism if you refuse to recognise the UK. Many countries of the world recognize only Great Britain per se and legally consider the north-irish irish people exactly like the palestinians, that is a nation under continued foreign military occupation. These countries are fully within their rights to supply military means to the irish independence fighters. 81.0.68.145 22:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)