Talk:Barbaro family: Difference between revisions
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Save venice (talk | contribs) leave the page alone- and the article is done. All that nonsense will always be left in the history section to refer to if needed |
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== Naming Branches == |
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See also [[Talk:Barbaro family/Archive1]] |
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Venetian culture has a long tradition of using family nicknames to define various branches of a particular patrician family. These nicknames were often based on the neighborhoods where they lived, fuedal holdings or titles, fields of interest as well as many other defining qualities. The Barbaro family also has nicknames that have become common usage within the art historical community: |
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Spelling variations include: Barbaro, Barbara, Barabari, Barbarino, Barbarella, Barbarelli, Barbarotti and many more. |
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The most famous branch who owned Palazzo Barbaro and Villa Maser is typically called ''San Vidal'', based on the name of their neighborhood in Venice. |
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This upper sentence on this talk page has some problems to it since names like "Barbara" etc. are derived from the name "Barbaro", but are not family names that have a direct relation to the aristocratic Barbaro family. There would not be someone of the aristocratic Barbaro family who would have the name "Barbara" etc. This point should be made clear. |
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==Defining the Venetian Line== |
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The article of the Barbaro family states that the male line of the Venetian branch died out. One would have to be careful about such a statement or should phrase it in a more approriate manner. First off, how is one defining "Venetian branch". The main Venetian branch is the "San Vidal" branch which has become extinct. However, if we are defining a Venetain branch of the family by the branches who have the title "Patrician of Venice", which would make them Venetian nobility, than this statement is not correct. For example, the "San Giorgio branch" is not Venetian because they lost the title "Patrician of Venice" and became solely Maltese nobility even though at one time they were of the same Venetain Barbaro family. There is another branch who were the Barons dell'Albergo that continue to exist and also have the title "Patrician of Venice" though they primarily held positions away from Venice and were aslo linked to the Austrian Habsburg House. I would not label this branch as Austrian- I would still coinsider them Venetian. Finally, there were very minor branches called "San Angelo" and "San Gregorio" who were not able to marry into their proper social class and were removed from nobility status all together. |
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If editing on the main article was opened up, I would phrase some of the wording on the article differently to be more specific and clear. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:65.54.155.57|65.54.155.57]] ([[User talk:65.54.155.57|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.54.155.57|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> |
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== Palazzi Barbaro == |
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When discussing Palazzi Barbaro, we can be talking about two different palaces for two different branches of the Barbaro family. The San Vidal branch, who owned the large Palazzo Barbaro on the Grand Canal in the San Vidal neighborhood, and the Albergo branch who owned Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Both branches palazzi are comprised of two joining palaces. Palazzi Barbaro-Dario is made up of a gothic structure and a unique marble clad structure that is often referred to being in the "Byzantine" style, though Ruskin still often referred to Dario as being Gothic style as well. Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal is made up of a gothic structure and a baroque structure. |
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Right now, this article states that the San Vidal branch built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro, but this needs clarification. The San Vidal branch bought first the Gothic palace designed by the Bon brothers from a previous noble family and then later decided to build a second baroque palace right next to it to house the family's ball rooom. Therefore, what the San Vidal branch did was by buy one gothic structure and built a baroque structure right next to the palace they already owned. |
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Hence, when we are saying Palazzo Barbaro, I am asuming that we are referring exclusively to the San Vidal palace, which is fine, and the Albergo palace would then be Palazzo Barbaro-Dario. Nonetheless, the article right now states that the San Vidals built the large Gothic Palazzo Barbaro which isn't completely correct. They bought Palazzo Barbaro, a gothic structure in the San Vidal neighborhood, and they built the Baroque palace right next to the gothic structure they already owned but did not build. I will go into the article and make this point clear. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.143.240.79|4.143.240.79]] ([[User talk:4.143.240.79|talk]]) 12:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Red Links == |
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Red Links on the Barbaro family article should remain to indicate where continued development needs to occur. If we are to seperate Palazzo Barbaro from Palazzo Barbaro-Dario, than the later deserves a red link to indicate where continued research needs to occur. Also, the two current heads of the existing branches of the Barbaro family are also noteworthy and deserve to remain as a red link. The information that was listed about them is what was included in the Giles source. I do not know any more about them than what listed there. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.142.117.219|4.142.117.219]] ([[User talk:4.142.117.219|talk]]) 19:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:If you look on the [[Talk:Barbaro family/Archive1|archived]] portion of this discussion page, you'll see that [[User:Starblind]] has commented: "In particular, editors should watch for mentions of 'Vitus Barbaro', on whom no reliable sources--or indeed any sources at all--have emerged. Sourcing on biographies of living persons is taken extremely seriously on Wikipedia, and claiming to have gotten a letter from some guy or called up a high school teacher is not a reliable source, and even if it's true (a doubtful scenario, let's face it), would constitute original research, which is also forbidden on Wikipedia." Unless you can come up with impeccable sources establishing this fellow's existence, and establishing that either of the two persons you added to the list (which is, after all, headed "Notable members"), are notable, the entries in question have no place in the article. [[User:Deor|Deor]] 20:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*The above statement is no longer relevant- there is most definetly a reliable source proving his existence- however there is still nothing that I know of that can say anything more about this individual's life. Bogus things may have been made up about him, but he is real[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 06:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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* I agree that a letter from a particular person or one person's first hand account would not be a very good source for an encylopedia article. I had the opportunity to go back to the previous talk statements and now see what you are talking about. I was basing my information on the Giles source that stated exactly what I wrote the second time. I can't tell you anything more about the heads than what I put there, but since there is verification as these people existing from a credible source, I think they should remain as red links. I would think that the information of the current heads are useful because that is a valuable source of information to learn how the family has developed- and in my opinion, it is worthy to remain as a red link, but what I would do is watch very closely what happens to those red links. If someone starts writing information about these individuals than make sure that it is sourced well. But for the record, these people listed as red links do exist, and should in my opinion remain. Wikipedia probably just had a childish Dracula/Transylvania prank played with this page, but what I have written is 100% accurate. I'm involved with the Save Venice orgnaization, and I'm also new to Wikipedia editing- I still need to create an account, but I made the first comments on this talk page, and when I saw that the article opend up, I thought that I would begin to improve a bit.I also improved upon the Palazzi Barbaro page as well with citations and made some minor adjustments to the Villa Barbaro page as well, but that one was pretty great as it was. If I have the chance to do more research with Palazzi Barbaro-Dario, I might open up an article on that as well- John Ruskin talked about Dario a great deal in his "Stones of Venice" and the Barbaro palazzo at the San Vio location is smaller than the San Vidal palace, but still very charming and very original- Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal just recently went through a complete exterior restoration. So for the record, those heads do exist- and I can put them back- but watch them closely and see what happens to them. Let's give it a shot. If it turns out to be problematic than they could still be removed. Thanks for keeping a close eye on vandalism. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.142.117.219|4.142.117.219]] ([[User talk:4.142.117.219|talk]]) 21:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I created an account under "save venice" and checked the source. I am 100% confident in both redlinks. Vitus Barbaro (1973-) is the 5th Princely Count from a line that was further established with Giambattista Barbaro who was titled via his father who first recieved the title in 1849. Vitus also holds the titles Patrician of Venice and Baron dell' Albergo and is the current head of the Albergo branch and only titled holder of that branch with future issue passing through him exclusively. For the other group, the head is Dr. Anthony Cremona Barbaro (1955-) who is titled as the 9th Marquis of San Giorgio, the branch may also use the title Count von Zimmerman for all members across the board. There is no biographical information listed for either of these individuals and only the San Giorgio branch is noted as being Maltese. The Albergo branch is regarded as being in relation to but not of the San Giorgio line. [[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 00:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I just went back in and also removed the 2nd redlink from the San Giorgio branch. I have no doubt what so ever that both Vitus and Antonio are real people, but I question their importance of being part of the "notable members" section, aside from the one known fact of the two being the current heads of the Albergo and San Giorgio branches. I would feel more comforable if there was first a blue link for the both of them to first establish their importance before they were added to a "notable members" section. Until more is known about either of them, I think it is best for them to remain out.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 00:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Palazzo Barbaro-Dario == |
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Previous redlink has now been turned into an article, if anyone knows how to add a picture to the page please do so. I do not know how to do that. The Monet picture is copy-right free Thanks[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 06:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Are possitive Monet was connected with the [[Palazzi Barbaro-Dario]] rather than the [[Palazzi Barbaro]] on the Grand Canal? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 16:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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You are correct that Monet was a guest at Palazzo Barbaro at San Vidal, but the painting I am talking about is specifically a picture of Palazzi Barbaro-Dario. Monet painted it while setting up his easel across the grand canal of Venice to capture Palazzi Barbar-Dario in its entirety. This particular painting is in the collection of the Art Institute of Chicago. There is even a poster that a web site is selling of it- let me see if I can add the website of that- and if you can add the picture of it to the page.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 17:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Show me the link and i will add it, though it is very easy - just save it to your computer then click on Uplpoad file and follow the instructions. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 17:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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We are in luck, the picture is on tour right now at the Tate! go to www.tate.org.uk; then search "Palazzo Dario 1908"; from there you will be able to get the painting which says "Palazzo Dario 1908 Art Institute of Chicago" You can enlarge the image and get a good shot of it. The red building on the left is Barbaro and the white with round oculi is Dario. See if you can add it to the page. Thanks[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 17:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I tried to add the Monet picture, but I don't know how to do it- if you can do that Giano, that would be great- if you are having a problem using the tate source, just google "Palazzo Dario 1908 Monet" and a ton of other sources will pop up with that image- The Art Institute of Chicago site and others. thanks[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 02:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::This one [http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://claude-monet.org/artbase/Monet/1908-1908/w1758/apc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.interagir.com/%3Fentree%3D145&h=734&w=600&sz=73&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=yL-77qQowvYWjM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPalazzo%2BDario%2BMonet%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG]? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 06:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC) is presumably the same as this foto here [http://rosswarner.com/2219.html] [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 06:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I have uploaded the image, edited the page, and changed its name to [[Palazzo Dario]] is this is the more common and correct name. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 08:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Yes that is the picture, and your revisions are fine, though when we use Palazzi-Barbaro-Dario we are making a better effort of including the two palazzi together- but that is clarified in the text- so it is OK. The last portion about it being unlucky is something that I removed- it is in the nature of superstition and a bit trivia like for a page that is meant to have an architectural subject matter. That point should be kept out- otherwise, it looks good Giano[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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When we are talking about "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario", it is a way of talking about TWO palaces that once belonged to one branch of the Barbaro family. One palace is just called Palazzo Barbaro and the other is called Palazzo Dario seperately. The page now as "Palazzo Dario" is just talking about one palace rather than two together as a single enity as it was often called when the Barbaro family owned both at the same time. Setting up a page as "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario" was a good way to talk about the other gothic palace as well, that is also very charming. Now, if we wanted to talk about that palace too, it is difficult on how to label it so it is not confussed with the one at San Vidal- Traditionally, people would say "Palazzo Barbaro-Dario". If you go to www.rosswarner.com and then go into Venice Tuscany and then "Up and down the grand canal" there is an excellent picture by the photographer that is labeled Palazzo Barbaro Palazzo Dario showing a good shot of both palaces.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 18:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Maybe you are correct, but the palazzi are not known by that name at all today, or even in the recent past, in fact not since the 18th century - if at all. If you want to write about that particular Palazzo Barbaro you can easily do so by calling the page [[:Palazzo Barbaro (Dorsoduro)]] [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 18:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Francesco Barbaro== |
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Do we actually have a source that says that this person was "''Grand Prince for the Knighthood of the Order of the Dragon''"?? [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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That statement is correct, he was knighted as so on 1432 following the expansion of the order from 1431. However, there is no source currently listed from those now on the page that would indicate that. He was also a well known humanist. Let's change his description to humanist until the actual source can be cited.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 12:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Giovanni Battista Line == |
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The third branch of the family was removed by the justification that there is no source for them. This is not correct, and I will source it by Vittorio Spretti who completed a family history of the house. The third branch begins with Giovanni Battista who contiunued on with his son Giambattista that married a mediatized princessly line of the Campolongo and continued onwards. I will provide the source and page number for this when I return the section. Pleasse discuss matters on the talk page before removing relevant material.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 17:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:You claimed that the Sala dell'Albergo in the [[Chiesa_di_San_Rocco_di_Venezia|Scuola Grande di San Rocco]] was named for the Albergo branch of the Barbaro family. This is false and I don't see why we should believe anything else you say. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 18:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::I was edit conflicted - see below. -- [[User:!!|!!]] [[User talk:!!|??]] 19:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Battle of "Temsvar", and the Room of the "Albergo"== |
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Further to the continued reversions and reinstatements, what was the Barbaro's "crucial involvement" in the Battle of Temsvar [sic]? (Incidentally, with the usual attention to detail, I believe this is meant to be the [[Battle of Temesvár]], aka [[Timişoara]].) |
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And the "famous" Sala dell'Albergo is not in the [[Chiesa di San Rocco di Venezia]]. The Chiesa di San Rocco does indeed contain certain Tinorettos. But so does the adjacent [[Scuola Grande di San Rocco]], in its Sala dell'Albergo.[http://www.victorianweb.org/photos/venice/chron.html][http://www.scuolagrandesanrocco.it/inglese/index_ita.htm] |
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I particularly recommend [[:it:Scuola Grande di San Rocco]], [[:it:Chiesa di San Rocco (Venezia)]], and [[:de:Sala dell'Albergo]]. The small upstairs chamber (''albergo'') was where the officers of the ''scuola'' - the ''Banca'' and ''Zonta'' - would meet (see [[Scuole Grandi of Venice]]). -- [[User:!!|!!]] [[User talk:!!|??]] 19:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Well there was no involvement as the Albergo branch do not exist! [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 19:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*please do not remove material from the page before discussion, especially when it is sourced, and second, please sign in so I know who you are- it lacks all credibility when you don't. I can't tell if this is all coming from one person. Let's take this step by step becasue there is much. |
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*First, it is the Temesvar (which was nothing more than a typo), and the one branch of Barbaro family provided additional support in unison with Czar Nicolas to stop Hungary from getting Transylvania which Hungary was initially winning- it turned all things around for Austria, later Austria made a comprimise to form the Austro/Hungarian empire and dismatled the Grand Principality of Transylvania- but the name in the form of the title Princely Count was awared as appreciation to the branch and the title is documeneted in the source that referenced that point. |
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*Second, The blue link of the Chiese di San Rocco discussed the Sala dell'Albergo with the paintings of Tintoretto and the Scuola and Chiesa are part of the same confraternity. |
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*Finally, translating Sala dell'Albergo into "Room of the Hostle" is a literal translation of those words. It is not a room used as a hotel or hostle (an albergo in Italy is more like a small hostle than a large scale hotel), they just do that because there is no word in English that means a noble Albergo, and you are correct that the Sala was used for the Banca and Zonta (Funders and Overseers) of the confraternity, which in this case is the Barbaro Albergo. There was also another confraternity set up in Catanzaro called the Sarti confraternity. Check www.EVRS.com Sala dell'Albergo "building and history" section that talks about the sala as the meeting room for the Banca and Zonta. I will go back in and reference the article.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 19:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Everyone is signed in, as far as I am aware. |
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Please describe the nature of this additional military support. Did the Barbaros command a brigade, or a regiment? Or supply the weapons or munitions? Tag along with their family retainers? Put on a party afterwards? |
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You seem to be claiming that the Sala dell'Albergo is named after the Albergo branch of the Barbaro family. The other Scuole Grandi has similar rooms with the same name - did they also name them after the same family? What about their ''androne'' and ''salone''? Is there an Androne branch of the family, or a Salone branch? Or perhaps ''Banca'' and ''Zonta''? |
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Or perhaps the family took its name from the room (or a hostel!) rather than the other way around? Do you have a source to support your claim that the room was named after the family? -- [[User:!!|!!]] [[User talk:!!|??]] 21:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*First off, punctuation marks as someone's sign in is a bit confussing. |
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*OK, The Barbaro family also has a long association with the Imperial house, they were awarded the right to use the imperial eagle earlier on so there is a long history there- also Venice was under Austria at that time, so there is both political and military support in the Barbaro's allegience to Austria while other families may have supported other political entities. Austria looked to additional support from Russia and Venice to help stop Hungary from taking Transylvania. What is strange, is when Austria wins, they decide to give Transylvania to Hungry anyways, what is called the "Austrian Comprimise", so titling the Barbaro branch was in part a "Make Nice" move for the emperor after so many people supported him with sacrifice to keep Transylvania and then he gives it away as payment to Hungary so he could create his Austro-Hugarian Empire, so that is the story there. The BArbaro family never ruled Transylvania, they simply were awarded the title Gefurster Graf and the GP Transylvania name was slapped on it it to rember their sacrifice- but that's the story there. |
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*Also there seems to be some confussion in what an Albergo is. An Albergo is roughly a corporation that nobility started to do a number of things: make certain industries succeed, help the community by starting or supporting confraternities, etc. Alberghi(plural) also had their own governing structure to them as well and certain political powers- for example, the Barbaro family had baronial rights in southern Italy. |
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*The Albergo which the one Branch of the Barbaro family created helped support the confraternity in Venice and a meeting room for that Albergo was set up in the confraterity. "The Room for the Albergo"- it's in essence a boardroom for all the different members who were part of the Albergo to discuss business matters pertaining to the confraternity- that's all it is, but it is highly noted because of the beautiful paintings by Tintoretto that are in it to decorate it. |
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*When we call that particular branch the "Albergo" branch we do so because they simply were the ones that created an Albergo and then also had the title Barons dell'Albergo. In essence it is partially a nickname to distinguish that branch of the family, just like the San Giorgios are called that because they are the " Marquis of San Giogio", and the San Vidals are called such becasue that was the name of the neighborhood they were a part of. They are all just nicknames- so when someone at that time would say which Barbaro- they would say, "Oh, the one who has the Albergo" or "the one who lives at San Vidal." and the nicknames stuck over time. All Venetians have nicknames to differentiate branches. |
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*The Sala dell' Albergo is called such becasue it was used for the meeting room of the governing Albergo, and the one branch of the family is nicknamed Albergo becasue they organized their family branch into an Albergo- that's the story there, It is really no big deal[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 21:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::There are articles on [[!!]], [[!!!]], and [[??]], you know. [[!]] is not just a punctiation mark - it is also a letter in various languages, a mathematical operator, and used in various forms of notation. |
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::Anyway, unless you can provide a source to show otherwise, I suspect that the the Sala is named after the ''albergo'' of the [[Scuola Grande di San Rocco]], rather than the room being named after the family. You seem to be saying that the ''albergo'' of the Scuola Grande di San Rocco is the same as the branch of the family that organised itself into an ''albergo'' - is that right? What about the ''alberghi'' of the other Scuole Grandi? -- [[User:!!|!!]] [[User talk:!!|??]] 09:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:So you are claiming they had the title "Barons dell'Albergo". Why is it I cannot find any match on the internet for that tor any similar term? Or is it only mentioned in the ''Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana'' by Vittorio Spreti? [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 21:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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* There are a number of specific titular rights that all branches of the family had that don't show up readily. For example, the San Giorgio's are also "Signore Pietremela" which is a Lord of that place and they are also the Barons of Latrinico and the Albergo branch's title is also contained within "Nobile of Lombardy Veneto" which is a title that was used when Austria had control of Venice. Each branch will primarily use their main title. This is true even today, Prince Charles of England is also a Baron- but you rarely hear that said.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 22:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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If you are really passionate about Venetian culture, you should get involved with the Save Venice Foundation. It is based in New York and there is another branch expanding in California. Save Venice has just completed restoring the palace at San Vidal and if you check out the Save Venice site there is a whole list of projects that are in need of restoration. The group is always looking for funding and support for those that are interested in preserving Venetian culture- you should check it out![[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 22:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::You could start at [[Save Venice Foundation]] to accompany [[Venice in Peril]]. (Reminds me of [[SAVE Britain's Heritage]], which I wrote yesterday. Is it connected with their offshoot, [[SAVE Europe's Heritage]]?) -- [[User:!!|!!]] ([[User talk:!!|??]] 09:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Don't tell me! I have guessed it - you are [[Bea Guthrie]]. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 22:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Couldn't say (lol), but I am interested to continue to address Venetian subjects on Wikipedia. A page that I would like to work on next is Palladio's Villa Pojana- that is a unique structure for Palladio and also went through a restoration not too long ago- well relative to the building's age- are you familiar with Pojana?[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Nope! [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 22:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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There is a page on Wikipedia about it right now, but it isn't very good and Pojana is probably the most curious example off all of Palladio's works- especially it's central passage way. If you are intersted, do a little research on that one and why don't you meet me over there next and we can tackle that one.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 22:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Yes, its here [[Villa Pojana]]. There are some pictures of it on Wikimedia Commons http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Villa_Pojana and the italian article here [[it:Villa Pojana]]. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 22:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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If you can put up pictures that would be great! I'm not good with that. I just pulled out some Pojana sources out to use. Why don't we move over to Pojana and fix that one up[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 22:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:I added the pictures. Feel free to rearrange them. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 23:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Save Venice the problem with the Albergo claim is I nor anyone can find any source that mentions a Barbaro family and the Albergo nickname together. Can you give an EXACT source or sources that states that there is a Barbaro branch called the Albergo and then people can go and check it. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 23:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*The source that I used on the Palazzo Barbaro page "Venetian Palaces" on p20 has a large discussion about family nicknames and has a large listing of many of them. Some are very funnny like one that is called the "ditch jumpers" which for a Venetian would be like saying you wear "floods" or "clam diggers". Sometimes branches even have more than one nickname too. The branch that we are referring to as the "Albergo" branch tends to be called "Barbaro dell'Albergo" and "Barbaro della Fornace" because they were the ones that had the Albergo and resided at Pallazo Barbaro-Dario. The other group is called "Barbaro di San Vidal" and "Barbaro di Maser" because they resided at the San Vidal Palace and they had Villa Barbaro. The dominant branch was always the San Vidals, but when Venice crashes, their line gets hit hard, while Albergo survives via their silk production in the south, but in the latter 19th century, the silk production industry also collapses. So many people who are genuine nobility often suffered a great deal and were forced to re-locate to other countries. In Venice, they called these unfortunate souls as "Barnabotti". You will find information about the Albergo line under "Barbaro and della Fornace". Those are the ones that had the Albergo. But using the Albergo nickname is more significant because this branch who were also the "Barons dell'Albergo" used Albergo often in the manner of a surname as part of a courtesy title- so some of these Barbaros of the Albergo branch are calling themselves "Albergo" rather than even "Barbaro" and this is why we still prefer Albergo as the main nickname. This also the case for the San Giorgios who even go so far as to use St. George as a surname-so it is rather complex. For clarity you can also add "della Fornace" as an Albergo nickname- but it's the same line[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 23:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:"''and this is why we still prefer Albergo as the main nickname''"...I assume by "''we''" you are saying that you are a member of the American Barbaro family and a claimant to be part of this Albergo branch? Again, I don't think we can include anything about an Albergo branch or a "Barbaro della Fornace" branch until we have checked the references that you have given. I have done a few quick searches for "Barbaro della Fornace" and can find no trace of that phrase. I think the problem is that you might be getting these nicknames from family knowledge and we can't really include that unless it has been discussed in a reputable source. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 12:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*By "we", I am referring to Save Venice and the community of Venetian historians. I am not of this family, infact, I am not even of Italian descent. If you do a search with "Barbaro" and "della Fornace" you should be brought to the Dario palace and location of where that branch resided. I can go into the text and try to clarify the use of nicknames, but this is just the way that Branch is talked about. They were the ones that had the silk Albergo and they were the ones who resided at Palazzo-Dario- at the "della Fornace" location. I will go in and explain more clearly. Also, moving over to Villa Pojana- which I started with that, can you move all the images to the right side of the page. I'm having trouble with that, Thanks, Gustav[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 14:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Right, the thing is we need to have written sources that mention the use of the Albergo and della Fornace nicknames, we can't just rely on your word. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 15:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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First, titular rights that include Albergo privliges via Nobile of Lomardary Veneto and that of the Venice and Malta are fully documented in Spretti source. |
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Second, the use of nicknames is fully outlined in "Venetian Palaces" by use of contrada etc.etc. Those words are directly take from that source by the author himself. When talking about the branch of people associated with the location at Maser, people will say they are "The Barbaro at San Vidal", "The Barbaro Palace at San Vidal", "The Barbaro at Maser". That is just the way anyone would talk about that line. If you are talking about the ones in Malta, one will say "The Barbaro who are the Marchese of San Giorgio" of the "Barbaro who are the Marquis of St. George". The other line is referred to as The Barbaro who have an Albergo" and the Barbaro who have their palace on Rio della Fornace". Thats all, and then it's just simplified "San Vidals", "San Giorgios", "Albergo", "della Fornace" etc. No one will care that much if one is using San Vidal or Maser of di Maser or Masero to address that line. It's all acceptable. Go to www.rosswarner.com which is a site of an architectural photographer and go into Venice : Up and down the grand canal. The Barbaro palace of that location is called Palazzo Barbaro on Rio della Fornace. If you feel unconfortable with these nicknames put in italics that I can work it out differently, but it is really not needed. But I will do it anyways- but it makes it far more difficult to establish clarity to each line- because it is simply the way everyone in the intellectal community talks about branch's of Venetian families.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 16:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:What you say may well be true but I can't find anywhere that actually says that these Barbaro branches had these nicknames. Unless it is written in a reputable source that the branches have these nicknames then I don't think we can include this information. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::I should just add I do not dispute the Maltese San Giorgio/St. George branch, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence of the use of the "San Vidal", "Albergo", "della Fornace" or "di Maser" nicknames. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 11:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:::[http://www.edwardstgeorge.com/biography/ Here is a real life member] of the Maltese Barbaro branch, Edward St. George, barrister, international businessman, racehorse owner and philanthropist. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/31/db3101.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/12/31/ixportal.html Here is his Telegraph obituary]. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 11:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Cadet branches == |
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"''The Princely Counts of the Grand Princes of Transylvania to the House of Habsburg-Lorraine''" does not mean as the article states they were elevated to a cadet branch of Royalty. '''If''' they were indeed given a princely tile it was most likely as "serene" highness not "royal". Secondly a cadet branch of any family, royal or otherwise, is a family related by blood and descent, usually from a junior son whose family have been given lesser titles than that of the main branch. No one can be made a cadet branch. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 06:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Where is the source that says a Barbaro was awarded this title? Is it in ''Enciclopedia Storico Nobiliari Italiana'' by Vittorio Spretti? I think we need someone to look at this book before we include any of these claims. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Maltese Barbaros== |
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OK, I don't doubt there is a family of Barbaros that settled in Malta and that they had the title Marchese di San Giorgio and later Count von Zimmerman through marriage. What seems less clear is that this Barbaro family is connected to the Venetian family. [http://www.maltagenealogy.com/libro%20d'Oro/sangiorgio.html This tree] traces only to a Pietro Barbaro of Naples who married Marietta Mancini at Valetta in 1631. If it is so certain that this family is connected to the Venetian family how is it that the "Libro d'Oro di Melita" does not show how Pietro Barbaro is related to them? [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 11:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Hi guys, I just wrote out a big explanation, but lost my info with an edit conflict, so I don't feel like doing it again, but look at the source you pulled up- It says it right there in the second big black listing "Venetian Patrician". That was the last to be so, and there after they were just Maltese. I am curious, why are you so fixated with this one family?[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 14:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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You also seem to be hung up on the whole GP Trans. part. You do understand that that is something Austrian and not Draculian. It is the way that they are fashioned, but there seem to be some issue about that, so I took it out, but every time I do this we loose more and more information. This is the last time I will be coming to this page for discussion. The article is acceptable now, and all info there is cited accordingly. I have also moved onto Palladio's Villa Foscari, if any of you have a picture to add please add it, and I hope we may meet up again on another article. Best wishes to you[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I see what is going on here, I had the chance to look at Gustav, Deor, and Giano's pages- and I see there was some problem with a the Fenwick high school page too. I am sorry guys, I thought you had a genuine interest in this topic. I think I will cool off with Wikipedia. If the red links remain, I may look into matters with those two and expand them accurately, but I just have to see how I feel- I no longer feel that I am enjoying myself any longer with this- and I especially don't feel that I am contributing to education- this is all too childish. Someone clearly saw Vitus's name and Transylvania and thought that he would be a good target to attack. Living out some Dracula fantasy I guess- G.P of Trans. has nothing to do with Dracula- it is Austrian. I suggest that all the Barbaro family talk pages and that of Fenwick high school too is gotten rid of or at least stored away, and a fresh talk page is begun.[[User:Save venice|Save venice]] 02:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Naming == |
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Venetian culture has a long tradition of using family nicknames to define various branches of a particular patrician family. These nicknames were often based on the neighborhoods where they lived, fuedal holdings or titles, fields of interest as well as many other defining qualities. The Barbaro family also has nicknames that have become common usage within the art historical community: |
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The branch who had an Albergo and lived in Palazzo Dario were often called ''Albergo'' as well as ''Fornace'' due to them owning an Albergo and being the ''Barons dell'Albergo'' and becuase of the location of the Canal della Fornace near their Palazzo. |
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The most famous branch who owned Palazzo Barbaro and Villa Maser is typically called San Vidal, based on the name of their neighborhood in Venice. |
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The third branch is typically called by the nickname ''San Giorgio'' because they were the Marquis of San Giorgio (anglicised as St. George). |
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The branch who had an Albergo and lived in Palazzo Dario were often called Albergo as well as Fornace due to them owning an Albergo and being the Barons dell'Albergo and becuase of the location of the Canal della Fornace near their Palazzo. |
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Both the Albergo and St. George branches have also used ther nicknames as surnames. Some legitimate Barbaro members used ''Albergo'' and ''St. George'' as their surname. |
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The third branch is typically called by the nickname San Giorgio because they were the Marquis of San Giorgio (anglicised as St. George). |
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Both the Albergo and St. George branches have also used ther nicknames as surnames. Some legitimate Barbaro members used Albergo and St. George as their surname.{{unsigned|Save venice}} |
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Revision as of 04:59, 6 October 2007
Naming Branches
Venetian culture has a long tradition of using family nicknames to define various branches of a particular patrician family. These nicknames were often based on the neighborhoods where they lived, fuedal holdings or titles, fields of interest as well as many other defining qualities. The Barbaro family also has nicknames that have become common usage within the art historical community:
The most famous branch who owned Palazzo Barbaro and Villa Maser is typically called San Vidal, based on the name of their neighborhood in Venice.
The branch who had an Albergo and lived in Palazzo Dario were often called Albergo as well as Fornace due to them owning an Albergo and being the Barons dell'Albergo and becuase of the location of the Canal della Fornace near their Palazzo.
The third branch is typically called by the nickname San Giorgio because they were the Marquis of San Giorgio (anglicised as St. George).
Both the Albergo and St. George branches have also used ther nicknames as surnames. Some legitimate Barbaro members used Albergo and St. George as their surname.