Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa Panhandlers Union: Difference between revisions

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Ottawa Panhandlers Union

Non notable union. Seems like an Industrial Workers of the World subgroup of little notability. Few real mentions in conventional news sources with one Ottawa Citizen op-ed piece. I consider the article to be a soapbox for something that a few anarchists think is a good idea. Halting traffic on Rideau Street and harassing shop owners does not confer notability -- Samir 08:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the second time a group of people with a political axe to grind have gone after the Panhandlers' Union article. The irony is that the Panhandlers' Union was just in the media -- again -- as a result of someone at Ottawa City Hall vandalizing the Panhandlers' Union article, as revealed by the Wikiscanner. I suspect that the person responsible for nominating this article for deletion may in fact not only be the same person who vandalized the article (on behalf of which politician I wouldn't hazard a guess) but also the same person who has been posting death threats on city streets about the union's current organizer (see: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3216/0000999ok3.jpg).

For those who may not be aware, the Panhandlers' Union in Ottawa has been featured in dozens, perhaps hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles, radio interviews, and television interviews. At least one article regarding the Panhandlers' Union was syndicated internationally and became the Canadian Press "strange story of the week."

I suspect that this AfD is part of an ongoing, organized attempt to attack the Panhandlers' Union and its organizers. SmashTheState 00:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course, it's a big conspiracy against people who beg for money in Ottawa. And the guy named "SmashTheState" clearly has no agenda here. Where are these news stories again? -- Samir 02:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP The burden of proof is on you to prove you aren't attacking this article because of your political views. Smashthestate does have strong views but he has barely contributed to this article. The only changes he has made are minor fact corrections. The real bias of Wikipedia is the class bias. Do you expect us to have 100 panhandlers come on and vote to keep this article? I am the main contributor to this article. I have just rewritten the article and added more references to the Panhandlers Union from various news outlets. I somehow doubt you'll be satisfied.--Apples99 05:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, no, the burden is on you to show that this is Notable. The sources are 3 in indy newspapers and one in some anarchy multi-lingual service. One's written by Jane Scharf. Seems like a local Ottawa phenomenon worthy of mention in Ottawa newspapers, but not worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. -- Samir 05:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I, personally, have given dozens of interviews to print media, television, and radio. Amazing as it may seem, not every media story is archived on the Intertubes. I can think of a half-dozen off the bat which ARE, but I resent very much being forced to spend hours of my time hunting through media archives for them for no better reason than preventing what amounts to a bad-faith campaign of harassment by someone who doesn't like the politics of the IWW or the Panhandlers' Union. SmashTheState 19:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - From what I've read and understood of the article, I am leaning towards "delete". But, before that can any supporters of this article explain to me with some degree of clarity what this thing is. I hardly can understand a word of the lead. Sarvagnya 05:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or massive rewrite. Right now this is a long rambling POV essay. Would like to add before anyone comes after me. Talk to me here about this not on my talk page. Ridernyc 06:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment All references in this article either lead to broken links, forums, or a website of questionable notability/neutrailty. Ridernyc 11:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP Re: Samir's comments in the larger discussion, the question is not and never has been of giving every shop of the IWW its own page. The question is of preserving a single page bearing on a group that has had national as well as local Canadian media coverage, and which has direct bearing on the bumpy ride (to put it nicely) of Ottawa's mayor - presumably a notable figure himself, no? This union shop has generated a great deal of discussion, as well as sympathy and hostility, in Ottawa and abroad. It has even provoked vandalism of its wiki page from someone within the mayor's office. If the union shop is of so little import, why is the city going after it? Here are some links to start with, there are others: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=615a7936-caaf-4613-b676-d5635bdb0790 http://www.hour.ca/news/news.aspx?iIDArticle=955 http://www.ottawaxpress.ca/news/brief.aspx?iIDArticle=2828 Feldsparo 16:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, number one that you cite is an op-ed piece by a local panhandler, and numbers 2 and 3 are pieces in tiny and very alternative media. This does not meet WP:N, nor is it accurate to say that there has been national and local Canadian media coverage based on these cites and the ones in the article. -- Samir 16:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is an op-ed piece printed in a major city newspaper, so one would think that it refers to a hot button issue in that city (otherwise why print it?). And the Ottawa Xpress, which is available on practically every street corner, boasts a large readership, and is Ottawa's major arts/culture newspaper, is neither "tiny" nor "very alternative" if honestly assessed. Feldsparo 00:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- How many times has someone come along and tried to delete this entry? Is this the third time? Fourth? I don't know about the rest of the planet, but in Ottawa this particular union is getting a lot of press. --Nik 20:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- This is news in Ottawa. 70.49.133.158 20:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Ottawa Resident[reply]

KEEP -- This article is invaluable to Ottawa activists. 99.224.75.237 00:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment if it is news in Ottawa provide links to references.Ridernyc 02:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - doesnt seem notable. Sarvagnya 02:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A few of the media organizations which have covered stories about the OPU: newspapers: Ottawa Citizen Metro News Ottawa X-Press City Journal. Radio: CFRA including an hour long interview on the Lowell Green Show which is syndicated nationally. The organizer Andrew Nellis is also mentioned in Lowell Green's book "How the Granola-Crunching, Tree-Hugging, Thug Huggers are Wrecking Our Country". The book was a bestseller in Canada. [1] Several interviews on CHUO. An interview on CBC Radio. Television: Interviews on CBC Television and Rogers Television. Smaller outlets: Dominion Newspaper. Not all of these are archived on the internet. That doesn't mean they didn't happen. I have included enough references to notable media articles that I believe it's quite clear that this is indeed a newsworth story. Yes, there are articles in smaller newspapers like The Dominion which cover the issue of homelessness and activism. Isn't that a fitting place for such a story? The corporate press has long ignored these issues. Asking us for articles from mainstream corporate press again shows your political bias and the political bias of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apples99 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There are 12 references for the article. 3 blogs, 2 invalid pages, 2 listserv e-mail, 1 image, a link to Shinerama (it's not even really necessary in the article), a self-published page and two articles by Jane Scharf. The Scharf links might be useful, but they seem to be opinion pieces, rather than trusty news sources. The CityJournal is something of merit, but the article would still have major verifiability issues due to lack of reliable sources. Nishkid64 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP -- How many KEEPs do I have to put here for you guys to understand. The reason that the corporate press is ignoring this is because of conservative right-wing influence on people who want to delete this article. I know for a fact that alternative Ottawa media like Metro and Ottawa X-Press have written at least 3 articles on it, and there is also one major article in Ottawa Citizen. Also like Apples says Andrew Nellis (even if he didn't talk about Ottawa Pandhandlers Union) was on CFRA and in Lowell Green's book. I know it doesn't meet your mainstream standards but this is clearly a major event that is shaking Ottawa even if the media isn't covering it. The reason it should be on Wikipedia is to fight the prejudices of the mainstream even if there has been little coverage! Pro Smith 07:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

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 *'''Comment''' A few of the media organizations which have covered stories about the OPU: newspapers: [[Ottawa Citizen]] [[Metro News]] [[Ottawa X-Press]] [[City Journal]]. Radio: [[CFRA]] including an hour long interview on the [[Lowell Green]] Show which is syndicated nationally. The organizer Andrew Nellis is also mentioned in Lowell Green's book "How the Granola-Crunching, Tree-Hugging, Thug Huggers are Wrecking Our Country". The book was a bestseller in Canada. [http://www.amazon.ca/Granola-Crunching-Tree-Hugging-Huggers-Wrecking-Country/dp/1894439309] Several interviews on [[CHUO]]. An interview on [[CBC Radio]]. Television: Interviews on [[CBC Television]] and [[Rogers Television]]. Smaller outlets: Dominion Newspaper. Not all of these are archived on the internet. That doesn't mean they didn't happen. I have included enough references to notable media articles that I believe it's quite clear that this is indeed a newsworth story. Yes, there are articles in smaller newspapers like The Dominion which cover the issue of homelessness and activism. Isn't that a fitting place for such a story? The corporate press has long ignored these issues. Asking us for articles from mainstream corporate press again shows your political bias and the political bias of Wikipedia.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Apples99|Apples99]] ([[User talk:Apples99|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Apples99|contribs]]) 04:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
 *'''Delete''' There are 12 references for the article. 3 blogs, 2 invalid pages, 2 listserv e-mail, 1 image, a link to Shinerama (it's not even really necessary in the article), a self-published page and two articles by [[Jane Scharf]]. The Scharf links might be useful, but they seem to be opinion pieces, rather than trusty news sources. The CityJournal is something of merit, but the article would still have major [[WP:V|verifiability]] issues due to lack of [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. <span style="background:#E0FFFF;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] ([[User talk:Nishkid64|talk]])</span> 04:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
-*<b>KEEP</b> -- How many <b>KEEP</b>s do I have to put here for you guys to understand. The reason that the corporate press is ignoring this is because of conservative right-wing influence on people who want to delete this article. I know for a fact that alternative Ottawa media like Metro and Ottawa X-Press have written at least 3 articles on it, and there is also one major article in Ottawa Citizen. Also like Apples says Andrew Nellis (even if he didn't talk about Ottawa Pandhandlers Union) was on CFRA and in Lowell Green's book. I know it doesn't meet your mainstream standards but this is clearly a major event that is shaking Ottawa even if the media isn't covering it. The reason it should be on Wikipedia is to fight the prejudices of the mainstream. Pro Smith 07:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
+<b>KEEP</b> -- How many <b>KEEP</b>s do I have to put here for you guys to understand. The reason that the corporate press is ignoring this is because of conservative right-wing influence on people who want to delete this article. I know for a fact that alternative Ottawa media like Metro and Ottawa X-Press have written at least 3 articles on it, and there is also one major article in Ottawa Citizen. Also like Apples says Andrew Nellis (even if he didn't talk about Ottawa Pandhandlers Union) was on CFRA and in Lowell Green's book. I know it doesn't meet your mainstream standards but this is clearly a major event that is shaking Ottawa even if the media isn't covering it. The reason it should be on Wikipedia is to fight the prejudices of the mainstream even if there has been little coverage! Pro Smith 07:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)