Talk:Cornish nationalism

history

I think some of the historical references should be put in, perhaps a section of these things? eg. I think Henry VIII? listed England and Cornwall as seperate realms in his commonwealth address... I read a fair few interesting little things like this in I either paytons history of cornwall or that quite old cornish language an liturature book...

131.111.8.99

actually this article seems very thin... theres a lot of interesting weird little points that should be here but aren't... Is there a reason for this? I have no local history books with me at the moment (at uni) so I can't be sure enough of the exact wording or whatever to put stuff up.

131.111.8.99

Apart from my preamble, I think it's almost entirely the words of User:Sjc. But in trying to make them into an article I night have distorted them. As Eric Morecambe once said "I'm playing the right notes - but not necessarily in the right order!". Andy G 00:54, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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This article reads like Cornish seperatist advocacy rather than a balanced encyclopedia article, I think someone should take a look at this wearing their NPOV spectacles G-Man 22:16, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think the article is more naive than baiasses. Cornish Independance is a strange idea for most people and, recognizing this, the author has explained the reasons for it. He/she points out that only the pro-independance factors are presented; presumably assuming that the anti-independace arguments are obvious. certainly for people not familiar with Cornwall and England the article would be strengthened by presenting the other side of the argument.

ping 22:28, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Regarding the current article, not the "non-encyclopedic rant", I still find serious inadequacies. Above all, Mebyon Kernow does not now advocate outright independence, if indeed they ever did. What they talk about is self-government and decentralization. The article ought to reflect this distinction: Either we should move the article to someplace like "Cornish regionalism" (or "Cornish nationalism" might also be acceptable), or we should put a link in this article to another about the movement for regional autonomy. (These are not the same thing, as anybody who's looked at for example the Irish Civil War can appreciate!) QuartierLatin1968 23:05, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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An Gof is listed as a "pressure group" here, but the main article for An Gof says it's a "terrorist organisation" - which is it?

Page organisation.

I, recently have been doing some organisation, have added wiki links, and converted the page into sections and bullet points. --Spe88 19:44, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Something needs to be added under the 'Others' heading about Cornish Solidarity, they are still an active group. However my knowledge of them is non existent. Fulub le Breton 22/01/05

Culture, Ethnicity and Identity

Can i suggest that discussion of the following be included on the main page for Cornwall under culture or a new heading such as identity.

• The inclusion of Cornish ethnicity on the census of 2001.
• School children in Cornwall now being able to record themselves as Cornish
• The Council of Europe (not the EU) recommending that the UK government recognise the Cornish for protection under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

They are not issues of Cornish Nationalism or Independence but in this authors opinion more issues of cultural identity and therefore apolitical. It is possible to envisage some one who is proud to record themselves as being of Cornish ethnicity yet at the same time a proud life long Conservative Unionist who has no time for Cornish Nationalism. Fulub le Breton 15/01/05

These sound like excellent ideas for inclusion, in my opinion, because Cornish identity is really the sine qua non of Cornish nationalism. If there is a growing recognition of Cornish ethnic identity, it follows that a greater space opens up for a Cornish nationalist project. (I do, however, recognize the anonymous contributor of 15/01/05's point – you're absolutely right, Cornish identity is necessary but not sufficient for Cornish nationalism.)

The movement for a Cornish Assembly, which gathered some 50 000 signatures and included support from a variety of political parties and civil society groups, should also be mentioned in the article, perhaps under "parties and groups". QuartierLatin1968 23:51, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Much ceredence is given to the "Mori Poll" which indicated that 55% of Cornish would like an Cornish assembly. However, checking through MORI's website reveals no trace of this poll, despite it giving similar polls for other areas of the UK. Could someone confirm how genuine this poll is?

The Stannary

Can i ask why some one is reverting my changes on this page? TGG and J Angarrack should not be under the 'Stannary' heading and you keep removing information on FUEN which the Stannary is closely linked to in Europe. Fulub le Breton25/1/05

Move to Cornish nationalism

I want to formally reiterate my request that this page be moved to Cornish nationalism or Cornish regionalism (or alternatively that the material on autonomist or cultural nationalist groups on this page be moved to a new page), because Cornish nationalists are by no means exclusively oriented towards independence from the UK. Even according to the Stannators, the Cornish Stannary Parliament has a veto over UK legislation – it isn't exempt from Westminster legislation the way that, say, the Italian Republic is. Insisting the term "independence" when the vast majority of nationalist groups envisage other possibilities ("self-government", regional autonomy, etc) just seems like setting up a straw man. QuartierLatin1968 23:51, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• I agrees with you and i think you should go ahead. Cornish Independence is inaccurate and simplistic and needs to be changed. However i would like to express concern about the suggested us of "Cornish Nationalism" as a title. This is also inadequate when describing such cross party groups as the Cornish Constitutional Convention. A line needs to be drawn also between groups who are active in Cornish cultural affairs and those who do have a nationalistic political agenda. Fulub le Breton 28/01/05

• • Regarding your second point, I don't think it should be a problem, because the word nationalism can be used in the sense of cultural as well as political nationalism. Besides, there is substantial overlap between cultural and political nationalisms – Henry Jenner, for example, was the founder of both the Old Cornwall Societies and the modern language revival movement, and he pressed for Cornwall to be recognized as a distinct Celtic nation. As to your first point – well, it's a question of semantics. For me, the way I understand the word 'nationalism', all that the Cornish Constitutional Convention proves is that there is an important nationalist presence among Cornish LibDems, Labour, etc. 'Regionalism' might do, but frankly that seems a bit of a weak term to use for the Stannators. QuartierLatin1968 18:13, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cornish ethnicity

I think there should be a separate debate on Cornish ethnicity, which is something slightly different, and a hell of a complicated thing!!! Does it exist, are the Cornish English, is it personal choice etc? I think you can be Cornish, and a non-nat.

But I have to say, I'm not keen on the slightly negative undertone the term "ethnicity" has acquired though.

I agree. A definition of what qualifies one to be an "ethnic" Cornish person is needed, otherwise the debate is meaningless.

Special Duchy powers

Most of these special Duchy of Cornwall things are not to unique to Cornwall, but also apply to the Duchy of Lancaster. The sherrifs etc are appointed by the Duke of Lancaster. I will have to check them one by one to make sure that all the powers have equivilants for Lancaster. The only big difference is that the Duke of Cornwall occasionally exists as a title held by someone other than the monarch (but not continually - for example the King was Duke of Cornwall between 1936 and 1956), whereas Duke of Lancaster is by custom not created in such a way. If the Queen were to create someone the Duke of Lancaster today, or if the Cornwall duchy were to revert to the crown because of death, there would be no difference. I'll do a bit more research and try to present this in a neutral way - but the article at the moment, with its ignorance of the Duchy of Lancaster, is not neutral. Morwen - Talk 14:11, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Morwen maybe you could contribute to the Constitutional status of Cornwall article as well. Does what you describe above apply to the Principality of Wales as well?

Also did you add the following to the Cornish nationalism page.

"The Local Government Act 1972 unambiguously declares Cornwall to be part of England" 

If so what was Cornwall before 1972? Was it created a County in 1888, if so what was it before 1888?

Bretagne 44

Cornwall has been a region of England since it was conquered by King Athelstan. The dukedom of Cornwall was first conferred on Edward the Black Prince by his father Edward III in 1343. "We will and firmly command for us and our heirs the said Duke may have and hold to him and the eldest sons of the said Dukes, of the same place hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England" (the appointment of) "the Sheriff of Cornwall"(and to have)"manors tc., and, "the stannaries of Cornwall". The text also stipulates "to remain to the same for ever...........in no wise separated........nor to any other or others."

I think the telling phrase there is "hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England"

Cornish people

This page has been chosen as the current UK Collaboration of the Fortnight. All welcome to join in . Secretlondon 17:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Register as a Cornish Wikipedian

At these two pages:

[1]

[2]

Bretagne 44 27/7/05.

Cornish nationalism pejorative?

Why is Cornish nationalism considered a pejorative term? It may be viewed as an inaccurate term, if supporters of self-government do not claim Cornwall to be a nation (although the article describes some subset as doing so), but I don't see how the claim is pejorative.

"Nationalist" is the bog standard insult used by the "unionist" Lab, Con and LabDems, eg referring to the "Scottish Nationalist Party" (sic) instead of the correct Scottish National Party. They try desperately to associate the SNP, Plaid Cymru and Menyon Kernow with the BNP and Nazism. In response to this recurring insult (see Nat Watch Blog) I note that supporters of Welsh independence have set up a new blog about "British nationalists" (ie Labour, Con, and LabDems): http://www.british-nats-watch.blogspot.com/ Supporters of Cornwall's current status as a county are "nationalists" too, not Cornish nationalists, but English nationalists or British nationalists. See, it is not so funny when the tables are turned the other way. Nationalist is a profoundly abused term - nearly everybody is a "nationalist", unless you support a single World Government, and I've never met anyone who does. Look up "civic nationalism" on Google.--Mais oui! 04:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Given that the N in BNP and the Na in Nazi both stand for National, with no 'ist' or 'ism', I'm not sure how misrepresenting the 'National' as 'Nationalist' in SNP could possibly be interpreted as an effort to create an analogy.

Anyway, as I see it, you're distinguishing between nationalism as the belief that culturally or ethnically distinct areas should be governed separately (and form a logical basis for the division of the world into states or states into autonomous areas), which you view as a reasonable use of the term nationalism, as opposed to nationalism as the belief that one's culture or ethnicity is superior to others? Perhaps we could make this distinction in the text -- it seems to me that by describing nationalism as ipso facto pejorative the text is in a sense attacking your position. Willhsmit 17:58, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

The official name of the Nazi party was "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei": the German National Socialist Labour Party. Mmmmmmm...... who's the "nationalists" now?--Mais oui! 18:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

That statement repeats, and confirms, exactly what I said in the first paragraph of the post you are responding to.

To focus this discussion, do you think that 'sometimes referred to as Cornish nationalism, a term which supporters dislike because they feel it unfairly conflates a desire for cultural autonomy with ethnocentrism or racism' might improve on the blanket condemnation of nationalism as pejorative?

Green party

Added the following:

The Cornish branch of the Green party also campaigns on a manifesto of devolution to Cornwall and Cornish minority issues. In the 2005 general election the Green party struck a partnership deal with Mebyon Kernow [3].

Should write about the Lib Dems and their Cornish nationalism lite really!?

Bretagne 44 13:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Feasibility

Serious question - do you guys actually think Cornwall could make it as an independent state? It's said in several places on the Wiki that it's one of the poorest regions of the UK, so how is cutting ties to England/Britain going to help?

This is a misinterpretation of the article - self government wouldn't necessarily mean ceceding from the UK. Many Cornish would like to have more say in there own governance but wouldn't want to cut ties with the rest of the UK.

As a philisophical point could Cornwall make it as an independant state, I would probably say yes, but it wouldn't necessarily be advisable. If Cornwall were to maintain membership of the EU then it would have access to much more financial support and the poorest regions thing would act in its favour here (just look at Eire as a good example of how EU investment has been successful). Alternatively outside of the EU, given full control over its own taxation policy then I think Cornwall would probably do better than you think (think tax havens and the Isle of Mann). Do I think it'll ever happen? NoMammal4 13:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It would appear that many Cornish people would like recognition of their Cornish ethnicity (for example on UK census forms), recognition from the goverment under the Council of Europe's Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and more say in self governance in the form of a Cornish Assembly, similar to that of the Welsh Assembly. As mentioned above not many would advocate full independence because the vast majority wish to remain part of the UK - here are some examples.

• Cornish ethnicity on the UK census
• Cornish awareness and culture
• Cornish ethnicity and identity
• Cornish Stannary Parliament
• Cornish and English identity

The Blood of the Isles

I think that it is worth typing in the bit from the famous genetics book "The Blood of the Isles" on this issue. In it, the author says that the Celts may have never existed as a tribe. The Celtic language group was identified, and some people then got the idea that these people must have all been part of the same race initially. The Cornish language is actually just a version of Welsh that has altered over time.

I would put up this commentary right now if I had the book on me. As it happens, I can't even remember what the author's name is. Once I find the book, I'll find the relevant page references. Until then, just thought that I'd put it up here in case anyone has any strong objections. Epa101 21:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Bryan Sykes was the author. Epa101 21:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Welsh and Cornish (and Breton etc) are both versions of a former British Celtic language. They have diverged over time due to geographical isolation and other factors. Cornish is not "just a version of Welsh". Mrscruffy 18:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

nationalism/self governance

Just a thought... this artcile seems to entirely link the nationalism and self governance, can anyone find qoutes from anyone who promotes cornish national identity without wanting self governance? May be worth rewording some bits a little if this is to be the 'nationalism' article as well as the devolution one. BPM