Wikipedia talk:Spoiler/Archive 13

There is a discussion on the archiving of this page at Wikipedia talk:Spoiler/Archiving debate

Thoughts

Granted, I realize a lot of these opinions are probably redundant to things others have said, but whatever. They're my opinions to put out.

1. People should expect spoilers in plot sections − When I read a plot section, I want to know what the work is about, not what happens. Basically, I just want to know what the back of the box would tell me. Plot sections are largely useless if they are spoiler prone. Those who have not seen the work won't want to read the section, and those who have don't need to.
2. Often, one doesn't know if the work they're reading about has a twist until it's too late. I could read the plot section for a dozen comedy films and not have anything ruined and then suddenly read one where the main character dies and things end tragicly.
3. Spoiler tags worked well when they were added within the plot section. Perhaps the reader wants to know everything about the plot except the ending. Perhaps they want to know the set up but not the twist. One doesn't know where to stop reading without the tag.
4. The irritation of having something spoiled greatly outweighs the slight irritation of a little tag one doesn't like. Shouldn't we cater to the viewers that recieve the most benefit from the tag?
5. Perhaps spoiler tags just need to be cited. If reviews on the work feel the need to warn people on spoilers then we should as well.

--SeizureDog 14:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

1. This point would be better served with a brief overview in the lead. There is no reason why the lead section shouldn't contain a plot overview other then the irrational fear of spoilers.
2. Placing spoiler warnings around the entire plot section, as was customary pier to May 2007, wouldn't have alleviated that problem either. It was too much of a CYA or "feel good" measure that did absolutely nothing for the reader. It was very unusual to see a spoiler tag around specific plot details.
3. The problem here is, how do you define when a plot detail is and isn't a spoiler without crossing into original research or adopting a point of view that it is? Almost all spoiler tags were placed because an editor though the plot section contained plot details that were spoilers or because it was customary to placing spoiler tags around a plot section reguardless. However, when pressed, the editor could not present verifiable evidence that the plot detail was a spoiler. "It's a spoiler because I say it is," was about the best logic they could ever rely on.
4. Following the policies on no original research, neutral point of view, and verifiability trumps the irritation of having something spoiled.
5. The problem with citing that something is a spoiler is that rarely do reviewers actually explain which plot details are the spoilers. But then, which reviewers have a say is also a problem. Film Reviewer A from a local newspaper considers Plot Detail B a spoiler. However, Film Reviewer C at the local university publishes an analytical critic of the same film and doesn't consider or even treat Plot Detail B to be a spoiler, but as "common knowledge". So who has more authority on the subject?
   
   Then there is also the problem with the age of spoilers. At some point, usually with the first few of months, plot details that were once considered spoilers no longer are spoilers. So when do you determine when to stop labeling a plot detail a spoiler? Never? That is clearly an unworkable. --Farix (Talk) 18:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Bah my response earlier got eaten, ah well, TheFarix covered it better that I could have, but just one thing -- you talk about wanting the plot to be like 'the back of the box', but simple, WP isn't FOR that. It's not a buyer's guide (which is what those summaries are for, to entice you to buy), just as it's not a game guide, price guide, etc. You can't say WP plot sections should be that way, any more than you can say public television should be for sports, or something. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 19:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Can we stop perpetuating the fallacy that "people do it wrong, therefore, it should be eliminated"? I mean, plenty of people stick POV tags on articles they disagree with, nevermind if the article is NPOV - we fix it rather than eliminating POV tags. It's not a valid reason to not have spoiler tags. There ARE many reasons not to have them that rely on personal opinion rather than fallacy; please stick to those. Thanks Kuronue | Talk 23:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is making that exact argument. But some people are pointing out that, in the Bad Old Days, spoiler tags were frequently misused, a situation that undermined their credibility and their utility. I can't speak for anyone else, but all I'm saying to the pro-SW crowd is: Draft a guideline that would explain correct usage. Or, pick a few articles and show us how it ought to be done, instead of arguing in the abstract. If you can't describe it, or can't be bothered, then perhaps it isn't that important.

For myself, I could foresee a scenario where SW's would come back in a big way, helping those who benefit by them, without undermining Wikipedia's role as an encyclopedia. But I don't see it as any great necessity either, so I am content to wait—forever, if need be—for the people who care about it the most to explain what the rules should be. And no, "local consensus" or "local art jury" (both fancy ways of saying "no guidance") doesn't cut it with me, and, I suspect, with many others. Marc Shepherd 00:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it really such a fallacy when the spoiler tag was used improperly (ie. violated WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and/or WP:V) in nearly 100% of all cases the tag was used? Is a tag with such a high error rate really useful to anyone? Also, improper placement of the cleanup and POV tags can be challenge by other editors. And both sets of tags are also intended to be temporary until the problem is addressed. However, if the pro-spoiler proponents have their way, the spoiler tag would be nearly exempt for such challenges. In fact, they would want the person challenging the tags placement to prove that the plot details contain no spoilers or are no longer spoilers (negative proof) instead of the other way around. --Farix (Talk) 02:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This is wikilaywering to the extreme. Can you give any one example where someone could even remotely care if SW violates NPOV or NOR? For facts in articles, it is reasonable to want this, sure. But SW is not a fact that needs to be checked, it's a part of user interface. It is either useful or not, and obtrusive or not; nothing else. Samohyl Jan 06:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Original research for editorial elements such as notices is ok, and always has been. Since a spoiler tag is a notice (not a warning), they can be placed however local consensus would place any other kind of notice, usually because one editor thinks it's a good idea, and no other editor opposes. NPOV is also not a real problem. If there occurs some extreme case of some spoiler notice somehow violating NPOV (which I doubt), editors are going to notice and resolve it on a rare case-by-case basis — much as that basically never happens with disambiguation notices, but would get fixed if it did.

About the issue of most of the old time spoiler tags being placed around the entire plot — and that not being what the spoiler-averse readers want for the equivalent of a back-of-book summary — is a good point. I agree that editors may not necessarily know how to identify a spoiler. So I agree that some guidance is useful, if it's not mandatory. For that purpose, I've previously suggested listing five real examples ranging from #1 (some not-a-spoiler detail) to #5 (a most extreme plot twist spoiler detail - Crying Game apparently). Milo 08:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't usually post a plain "me too," but as this is the first time Milo and I have agreed on anything, I thought I'd say so. Marc Shepherd 18:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Farix isn't wikilawyering. The classic case of the neutral point of view being messed up due to spoiler tagging is The Crying Game, where the whole article was designed to keep the most significant, most talked-about, characteristic of the film out of the lead section, hidden behind a spoiler warning around the plot section [1]. As for whether somebody would care about this, I should hope that we all care about the fundamental policies, without exception. --Tony Sidaway 11:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of The Crying Game article, the entire intro is unsourced, if you want to talk about policy. The style guideline for films says "The lead section of an article serves as a quick introduction to the film. The very first paragraph should cover the basics, such as the film's release year, alternate titles, genre(s), setting, country (if not the US), stars, and director (and possibly writer in some cases), as well as one or two of the most notable, verifiable facts about the film..." It doesn't say that a twist ending should be revealed in the intro. If a film is notable for its twist ending, I suppose you could say that in the intro, but I don't think it's necessary to reveal what the twist is in the intro. If a spoiler is present in the intro of an article and has no source, it should be removed. If the spoiler has a source, editors should consider moving it out of the intro if reliable sources have given spoiler warnings. I can understand why someone would put a {{spoiler}} tag in that article. Film critic Emanuel Levy wrote "I can't describe more than that as Miramax, the film's distributor, has justifiably asked reviewers not to disclose the shocking plot development." Roger Ebert wrote "Warning: This is the kind of movie that inspires enthusiastic discussions afterward. People want to talk about it. Don't let them talk to you. The Crying Game needs to be seen with as close to an open mind as possible, and anyone who tells you too much about the film is not doing you a favor. I would prefer, in fact, that you put this review aside until you see the film. If you read on, I will do my best not to spoil your own discoveries." Ebert concluded his review by saying "See this film. Then shut up about it." Levy's review and Ebert's review are both citations that justify the use of a {{spoiler}} tag. The article for The Crying Game also contains this sentence "Gene Siskel, during Siskel and Ebert's annual "Memo to the Academy" program, gave away the ending of the film while giving his review." but there is no source provided. Even if that sentence was sourced, it does not cancel out warnings that other sources have given. In Siskel & Ebert's televised review of The Crying Game, neither of them reveal the twist. Siskel said the film "has stunning plot twists" and mentioned the way the script "unfolds." Ebert mentioned surprises and said "anything I tell you would diminish your enjoyment of the film." Wikipedia editors simply have no right to spoil a surprise for someone or ruin a reader's enjoyment when it comes to fictional works. The {{spoiler}} template is a polite way of notifying readers and letting them choose if they want to read further. People keep saying "this is an encyclopedia" but that argument means nothing unless someone can provide an encyclopedia that has an entry for The Crying Game that reveals the twist ending. --Pixelface 15:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I also don't think that not mentioning the ending in the intro messes the NPOV. I even don't think there are two opposite views of the plot, as the plot is a fact, not an opinion, so there is no NPOV issue in the first place. As long as the article mentions the plot and has it correctly as it was in the work, it IMHO passes both NPOV and NOR in this respect. Samohyl Jan 18:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If a published source issues a warning[2] and doesn't discuss the plot, and other published sources do discuss the plot, it becomes an issue of neutral point of view. The {{spoiler}} template is a way of presenting the plot information from one source, while also presenting the warning from another source. I do not agree that "the plot is a fact" is always true. When rewriting a plot, there are going to be disagreements about the description of the storyline because many people interpret fictional works differently. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source. Speaking of The Crying Game, how many sources used the term "transwoman" in 1992 when speaking of the film? Is the term used in the film? As far as I know, it's a newer term being applied retroactively, so it's a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." --Pixelface 11:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not wikilawyering. It is applying current wikipolicies to an area where the policies generally have not been enforced do to inertia. Spoiler tags are also not part of the "user interface" either. At most, it is a content disclaimer that labels certain content as spoilers. Generally, we should avoid content disclaimers, and I don't see why spoilers should be an exception. However, if we are going to allow this kind of disclaimer, it needs to be applied accurately. Hence why it needs to follow WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. --Farix (Talk) 12:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe NOR and NPOV were not applied to SWs before because it's just silly thing to do? No, really, who cares except wikilaywers? We talked about content disclaimers before, and I believe that humans have often rules and laws that are not logically consistent. If they are useful, why not? You still haven't answered my question, why do you think NOR or NPOV should apply on SWs? I want to hear a practical argument, not logical. If someone finds the SW useful, it will be no matter if they are NOR or NPOV. If someone finds them obtrusive, it will be again for completely different reasons than these two. So why should these people care about NPOV and NOR policies at all? Samohyl Jan 19:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's accurate to say that spoiler tags were misuses in a vast majority of cases. It's not a valid argument to say that therefore, they should not exist. Most people on certain roads speed; that doesn't mean we should abolish the speed limit. It IS, however, an argument in favor of revising the guideline that existed then, and an argument against returning to that particular version - if we do return to spoiler tags their correct usage needs to be carefully documented and monitored. Kuronue | Talk 19:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Dil is biologically male is the most significant, most talked-about fact about The Crying Game. This is why leaving it out of the lead violates the Neutral point of view policy. Critiques of the treatment of Dil's sexual identity are quite common in gender studies, [3] and the term "Crying Game" has often been used as shorthand for gender-confusion in sexual relationships. To act as if this most significant fact were some dreadful secret that must not be mentioned in the lead is not compatible with Wikipedia's policies. --Tony Sidaway 19:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so if there's consensus that this twist should be in the lead, and this film is of long-lasting if not permanent importance, precede the lead with a permanent spoiler tag. If you don't like the way it looks, or if editors think 'readers will see it anyway', then make the tag showable with a bunch of showable dot lines under it to eclipse viewing of the lead section.

There's no real problem here. Phil's unsupported opinion that the tiny number of film students, and the large number of film consumers can't both be served with the compromise Hide'nShow spoiler notices, doesn't make logical sense. Phil just has a bad case of WP:IDon'tLikeIt, or more to his agenda, WP:IDon'tLikeThem.

And yes, I think Citizen Kane should have permanent spoiler tags inside the plot section around the ending. I want future students to be as stunned by the brilliance of Orson Welles' masterpiece as I was. Victorian-edited long-form fairy tales are serious gothic literature that deserve more respect than the implied snorts issued here; why not allow spoiler tagging? Shakespeare I'll leave to the judgments of others. Three little pigs? I had a new thought about that — it teaches children what a spoiler is (Tony, try not to have a heart attack :)) Milo 03:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That your major sense of Citizen Kane is that you were surprised by the ending speaks poorly either of your film instructor or of your understanding of what film scholarship is. Most probably of both.

I think it telling that both of the people in this discussion who have taught college level film courses seem to be of the opinion that spoiler tags are idiocy on legs. And equally telling that, over and over again, those who want spoiler tags are invested in "preserving surprise" and "preserving suspense." It speaks volumes to the shitty quality of most of our articles on fiction. With precious few exceptions, they are written by people who are more interested in their fannish and masturbatory love of the text than by people who are interested in critical distance and scholarship.

Is this a case of I don't like it? Perhaps. I do, indeed, not like spoiler tags or most of our fiction articles. That said, my dislike is not random. I dislike them because they are bad. They are badly written, badly edited, and badly designed. They are the single biggest example of where Wikipedia, as a project, goes wrong. They are as bad, quality-wise, as POV fork articles. Except that, unlike POV forks, they are innocuous enough not to attract attention, and so they are dominated by the naievete of the text's fans.

Thankfully, our policies on fictional articles is mostly that they should be better than they are. Demand for shorter summaries, a focus on an out-of-universe perspective, and the turning against trivia and "in popular culture" sections are all policies that improve fiction articles. What was so jarring and so odious about the spoiler policy was that it was, increasingly, the last policy left that actively defended the mindset that leads to bad fiction articles.

If only their writers could be so easily deleted. Phil Sandifer 04:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You should understand that the improvements you are talking about are subjective. When I read about fiction, I consider it to be primarily entertainment. So I use fiction articles differently than you, and there is nothing wrong with that. So I like SWs, in-universe perspective (because it gives me quick information what happened in the universe without needing to also read in what book or movie it happened) and trivia (of course, they should be sourced and they shouldn't be in nonfiction articles, but in fiction articles, I have no complaints).

You are telling such people to go away. I find that attitude very arrogant. I am a programmer, with a degree in math, so I am not stupid (in case you would have thoughts like that :)). Imagine if articles about computer science or mathematics there were written in incomprehensible, inaccessible manner and you would have a hobby reading them. You would also complain, and find it very arrogant if I would just tell you to go away. Wikipedia is not working like that fortunately, it is trying to be accessible for laymen as possible, and it's a good thing. Samohyl Jan 06:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

random break

Most of our mathematics and computer science articles are written in an inaccessible manner. That's why so few of them are featured.

Phil's claim that spoiler warnings are the last bastion of bad fiction writing is unfounded. Not only were there many featured articles with them, but bad fiction writing is certain to continue. Not least because he (and probably lots of other admins) think 'fans-only' articles are acceptable.--Nydas^(Talk) 21:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a subtle but clear difference between science articles and fiction articles. And should they be written in easier to understand language? Yes, but I think this is partly an issue with the writers- the most knowledgeable are going to describe things in terms that newbies to the topic might not get. I mean, if I hit someone on the street with "Secondary messengers activate protein kinase..." and went from there, they'd never get it. But science articles, if they are comprehensive, are going to by necessity contain a fair amount of this language (that doesn't mean that spin-off articles like the Intro to Evolution might not be warranted). The same does not always go with fiction articles. People wanting to learn about Halo 3 are not going to need to know about plasma rifles to get a full understanding of the topic. David Fuchs ^(talk) 21:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

They will need to know what a first person shooter is, what levels are, what hit-points are, what constitutes an enemy, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if many of our featured games articles are incomprehensible to non-gamers, though Halo is okay in this regard.--Nydas^(Talk) 21:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Nydas, my point is different - it is that Wikipedia people want mathematics and computer science articles to be accessible. The reality is different thing (I think most topics which are hard to understand are hard to understand for a reason, so nobody yet came up with way how to make it really accessible). But Phil is arguing that laymen (who use Wikipedia as a consumer guide, for example) should be ignored on fiction articles. This is akin to saying that laymen should be ignored on science articles. Phil simply doesn't believe it's doable that Wikipedia be both analytical resource and consumer guide, like someone who doesn't believe it's doable to write article about science accessible to laymen, but still be comprehensive enough to serve as a reference for the experts. Note: By saying 'consumer guide', I don't mean that Wikipedia should have all the attributes, it must follow the NOR and NPOV policies, which means no ratings, reviews and opinions from users. It means to accept the reality that people try to use it as such, because it's so comprehensive. Samohyl Jan 06:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree. Another problem is the lack of critical and analytical material for most fiction. In contrast, an article about a scientific topic is always likely to have scientific sources available. How many featured fiction articles have 'critical distance and scholarship'? Half? --Nydas^(Talk) 21:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"major sense of Citizen Kane is that you were surprised by the ending" Um, reread please; no, I didn't say that. I'd say my major sense of Citizen Kane is seeing interesting, jarring, or unexpected things that at first seem to happen by accident or from sloppy jump editing, and slowly realizing, 'wow, Orson planned it that way and it works'. The semifinal spoiler scene, while tame by today's standards of shock value, remains disturbing to students who are still only a few years departed from their toys. And I'm prepared to believe that Orson planned it that way.

"speaks poorly either of your film instructor" The dean must have thought well of him. The faculty of my world-class Nobel-Laureate liberal arts and science university takes no back seats in academe. Several of its departments have from time to time been rated no. 1.

"I think it telling that both of the people in this discussion who have taught college level film courses seem to be of the opinion that spoiler tags are idiocy on legs." They strike me as defenders of the old paradigm in a Kuhnian shift. Thomas Khun says that such get money and prestige from not changing their minds even as the shift engulfs their fading POVs.

"And equally telling that, over and over again, those who want spoiler tags are invested in "preserving surprise" and "preserving suspense." So who was the first authority to declare that there was something wrong with narrative suspense? And what did they claim to be wrong with it?

"I do, indeed, not like ... most of our fiction articles. .... I dislike them because they are bad." In May/June of 2007 I originally thought that what you believe to be bad writing, is a matter of general agreement. Now I'm not sure. Since you have such extreme views about narrative suspense and film student education, I wonder if what you call bad writing is simply not adhering to a rigidly-prescribed stylistic form? But I'm not going to judge that without adequate samples.

"spoiler policy was that it was, increasingly, the last policy left that actively defended the mindset that leads to bad fiction articles." Mindset as opposed to method? Are you sure? Are you saying that identifying spoilers causes bad writing? I seem to recall that you objected to rearranging the writing to minimize spoiling, which is a method, not a mindset. Identifying spoilers is also required for pre-writing analysis. If one doesn't do pre-writing analysis, one can't properly synthesize during writing. So it's not the actual identification of spoilers that is the problem, but the method applied to use the identifications during writing.

"masturbatory love of the text" I'd like to subject that line to a full Freudian analysis. But a shortcut is a line I heard somewhere about "bluenoses" as paraphrased here, "Bluenoses worry incessantly that someone, somewhere, is having fun in a way of which they do not approve."

"your understanding of what film scholarship is" I certainly had no idea that such a student-abusive school of film scholarship existed, of which you apparently claim to be a product or exponent. To deliberately spoil the work of a genius on first showing is unthinkable in the school I'm from. To do so stamps out the fire of creativity which burns in media art students, by leveling peak experiences — which otherwise stimulate a flood of ideation and emotion that flower artistic inspiration in the next generation.

Apologies if I have this wrong in part or whole, but deduction suggests, that when you were a young student, that you were educationally abused in just this way, and that now you want to pass on this abusive pedagogy legitimized as film scholarship to the readers and editors of Wikipedia. Milo 09:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You're only making Phil Sandifer's point for him. You do indeed seem to be wedded to the text, and in particular so wedded to the concept of suspense as the mark of great story-telling that you would propose that we write our articles so as to maintain that particular, ephemeral, quality of the text. In the case of Citizen Kane, in fact, it appears to me that you may be advocating that we avoid talking about the technicalities of Welles' direction for fear of giving away his (by now well understood and endlessly written about and copied) secrets.

The famous "Rosebud", in particular, is a plot device probably devised by the film's screenwriter, Herman J. Mankiewicz. Welles often credited Mankiewicz with the invention of Rosebud, for which he is reported to have expressed dislike. It's a commonplace plot device for which Alfred Hitchcock in a lecture in 1939) devised the term MacGuffin. In Citizen Welles, Frank Brady said that the term "rosebud" was an in-joke, based on a rumor that William Randolph Hearst used that name for Marion Davies "pudenda" (Brady's vague word; Gore Vidal interpreted this as "clitoris" on the basis of anatomical similarities. --Tony Sidaway 16:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"making Phil Sandifer's point for him" Only if you strawman my actual positions.

"so wedded to the concept of suspense as the mark of great story-telling" "the mark"? You didn't get that from me. I'm asking why narrative suspense is under attack as an element of story-telling (great or not), and who was the first authority to declare that there was something wrong with it? And what did they claim to be wrong with it? Not sure, but it sounds like you are buying into some anti-narrative-suspense theory without understanding its origins or philosophy.

"you would propose that we write our articles so as to maintain that particular, ephemeral, quality of the text" Certainly not — you have me confused with someone else. As I first wrote on 16:18, 31 May 2007, and have repeatedly stated since, I promptly sided with Phil on the good fiction article writing standards, with tweaks. You write a consensed good article, and I'll happily place Hide'nShow spoiler notices in the correct places. No problem.

"in fact, it appears to me that you may be advocating that we avoid talking about the technicalities of Welles' direction for fear of giving away his ... secrets" There's nothing I wrote to suggest that. You seem to be suffering from stereotyped reading comprehension. Again, I can tag what you can reveal as a spoiler.

"Rosebud" You'll be disappointed that like Orson, I was never much interested in Rosebud, the MacGuffin. Orson's genius utilized that lame device by creating a disturbing symbolic scene of hellfire, to suggest to older viewers what awaited Kane in the beyond. For the younger viewers, the disturbing image was that of a workman almost angrily throwing a perfectly preserved sports toy into the furnace. Milo 02:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with narrative suspense, in a story. It has no place in an encyclopedia, however. --Tony Sidaway 17:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

However, this has nothing to do with spoiler tags.--Nydas^(Talk) 21:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure it does. Phil Sandifer 05:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Subjective Texts

So, I got a blog, right, where I've been writing about the idea of subjective texts. Re-Evaluation Counseling guru Tim Jackins has written an article in two versions: one is for RC affiliates, and one is for lay-people. It's a strange contrast: it isn't at all clear why Jackins makes certain textual choices for one audience and not for another.

Now, wikipedia is currently an objective text (I think(?)) insofar as any two people looking at it at the same time will see the same information. The proposal to add hideable spoiler tags would make it a subjective text. And surely the next proposal, if hideable spoiler tags are implemented, would be to make the spoiling sections themselves hideable. Given that precedent, where is the subjectivity supposed to stop? Shouldn't I, as a Quaker, be able to hide text sections that offend my religious sensibilities? If not, wouldn't be saying that wikipedia's policies value movie customers' satisfaction more than religious faith? Wouldn't that be an odd claim? Or, on the other hand, if I am allowed, as a Quaker, to hide anti-Quaker texts, where will the end to this subjectivity be? Should wikipedia present itself differently for every reader's tastes? This is an appealing idea to me, in some ways, but it seems quite contrary to the notion of an encyclopedia as a common resource. Ethan Mitchell 19:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as Muslims and Bahais are allowed to move pictures they find objectionable on the Muhammed and Bahá'u'lláh articles, it is quite possible you may be able to move things to suit your religious beliefs.--Nydas^(Talk) 19:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethan, what you are talking about I have been referring to previously here as the 'next' encyclopedia. Way beyond spoiler showable tags, I have a system of menus conceived that one can open with (current proposal) a | tags | tab. All kinds of customizations can be done here. Showable extra editorial tools like spoiler notices are not genuinely controversial. Hiding article content things, however, might be a slippery slope to formal censorship (aside from the informal political censorship that Nydas mentions).

The solution to this problem is to make the tags menu tab work with a local browser file containing parental control data. Parental control is an in-home euphemism for censorship, but that's where censorship belongs. If I don't want my children to read (or I don't want to read) indecent or violent, words or images, I could click the menu that loads a filter of my choice into my local browser, and the stuff I don't want, doesn't show on my screen. But on your screen it does show as usual. The result is that everyone is happy except for Fundamentalists, control-freaks, and illusioned paper-encyclopedia traditionalists, who want to control other people's choices. Milo 03:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Milo, you confirm the general idea that I'm discussing. I like the idea of subjective texts (my blog entry, if you're interested, is at www.thequodlibetarian.blogspot.com) Here's my concern. One of the major benefits of wikipedia has been forcing people with conflicting POVs to collaborate on pages. True, this isn't always an immediate way to get a perfect front page. But it is a great way to call out conflicting POVs, even where no one was expecting them. I always look at the talk pages of articles, and I am often surprised to learn that particular facts, theories, or even phrasings are more controversial than I realized. Wikipedia shows everyone what is being disputed, and by who, and why. By contrast, it shows everyone what isn't being disputed, at least in high-volume articles. I think this is an extraordinarily salutary thing, and one that makes wikipedia quite unique.

I think turning wikipedia into a fully subjective text would destroy that. You know Moynihan's line: "You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts." I've always disliked that, because the distinction between a fact and an opinion is, well, an opinion. But it's easy to imagine the horrors we could have under a tag system like the one you're proposing. How long will it take before young-earth-creationists want to create a tag to make all the articles on biology, geology, astrophysics, and history "creationist-safe?" I would guess about two weeks. Do we really want an encyclopedia that offers readers one of fifteen different numbers for the age of the planet, depending on what ideological tags they've chosen? Isn't that need met by the wider internet, and by reader-side filtering mechanisms? Or...and this is the part that I simply cannot envision...do you have some bright line imagined that lets us tag spoilers and religious depictions, but not statements of "fact"?

I'm glad you are presenting us with this larger program, because it makes me feel a little less shrill about my own concerns. Clearly we are discussing a radical change in the way that wikipedia presents itself to the reader, especially the non-wiki-savvy reader, and we should be frank about that. I don't think it's helpful to say that spoiler warnings are "not genuinely controversial," here on the twelfth talk page or whatever it is about the controversy. Ethan Mitchell 13:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Milo (03:43) wrote: "Showable extra editorial tools like spoiler notices are not genuinely controversial."... Ethan (13:44) wrote: "don't think it's helpful to say that spoiler warnings are "not genuinely controversial" I intended reference to a common early claim in this debate, still embedded in the pro-spoiler-tag userboxes. Contrary to that claim, notices that are showable/hidable are not censorship, because they are editorial tools, not article content; plus they only add something, not remove anything.

• "Do we really want an encyclopedia that offers readers one of fifteen different numbers for the age of the planet, depending on what ideological tags they've chosen?" Why not? Wikipedia is suppose to describe controversies, and if creationists can turn on a bunch of numbered reference tags that link to a page of their verified notable contrary opinions, I don't see how that's going to do anything except make Wikipedia less controversial and less tendentiously edited.

• "do you have some bright line imagined that lets us tag spoilers and religious depictions, but not statements of "fact"?" With latter negation inverted, yes. While spoilers are a more simple concept that can be editorially judged using a rubric, I think the problem of alternatives to scientific facts is already solved by notability. Fact or belief, if it's not a notable differing claim (typically pre-vetted by the wider internet), it doesn't get a showable reference tag. I suspect that an ability to hang these notable reference tags, will in some cases lead to better descriptions of the controversy in the NPOV text. However, if ether consensus or tendentious editing prevents a minimally satisfactory NPOV text, then the tags may relieve some of the pressure of external charges that Wikipedia is unfair or biased. They are a mid stage between the article and the talk page, and I agree about the importance of the talk page in uncovering controversies.

• Ethan (2007-10-20 blogspot.com) wrote: "if we enact such a policy, some users will then want the option to hide the "spoiling" texts themselves, and then some users will want the option to hide texts" I don't see any problem if the tags are used to trigger text blanking or substitution using the local browser's parental control data file. Milo 06:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It may be worth mentioning that the last major poll, Wikipedia:Graphic and potentially disturbing images, regarding content-filtering through the use of ICRA- and PICS-enabled software, was rather vigorously opposed. I would also suggest that this discussion, now delving into content-filtering rather than spoiler warnings, seems to be getting beyond the scope of this page. --Iamunknown 06:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"content-filtering rather than spoiler warnings" I count that spoiler words were mentioned six times in my last post, so I respectfully conclude that you are incorrect. Milo 09:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I should have wrote, "now delving into content-filtering in addition to spoiler warnings". I also count that of approximately 55 words in my post, you quoted only 5 or 6. You would do well, then, to say, "I respectfully conclude that your statement is incorrect", unless you actually believe that the substance of my comment is incorrect, in which case I urge you to read over Wikipedia:Graphic and potentially disturbing images. If you have read over that page, and I am merely offering moot advice, then I apologize; your comment did not indicate as much, so I have no way of knowing. --Iamunknown 15:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

My post converged toward topic. Yours diverged further afield. Milo 03:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Milo, could you please acknowledge whether or not you have read Wikipedia:Graphic and potentially disturbing images? It is relevant to this thread, however irrelevant it is to this discussion page, as you originally mentioned content-filtering and the desire for this or the "next" encyclopedia to incorporate it. --Iamunknown 03:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What's going on here? Are you an undercover spnarc? (spoiler police narc :)

If you claim it's irrelevant to this discussion page, what's your WP:IAR reason to ignore OT wikiguide and continue discussing it? Milo 07:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point.  :) I'll be quiet now. Cheers, --Iamunknown 23:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Iamunknown, I think the issue of content subjectivity is quite germane to this discussion. Both Milo and I, in our different ways, view spoiler tags as the thin end the wedge for a larger-scale version of subjective content. So I think we should be discussing that possibility, and this is as good a place to do it as any.

In essence, we are talking about a tag system that would allow users to navigate smoothly through a large series of POV-forks. WP:CFORK doesn't actually explain why we've deprecated content forking, but I think two major reasons present themselves.

First, every content fork reduces the editing attention available to any particular version of an article. If we allow, let's say, mere boolean tags for child-safe, Christian, technical jargon, and white supremacy, there will be sixteen different Evolution articles, each recieving a small fraction of the editorial care that they do today. I think we can expect to see a massive drop-off in overall article quality. (Although, in fact, that might be salubrious...if we discover that setting your tags to "child-safe white supremacist" results in a wikipedia full of inane platitudes and vandalism, that would surely tell us something.

But, second, and the only non-tautological reason offered on WP:CFORK, content forking avoids the work of consensus building. I think many users of wikipedia admire and use the site precisely because the articles represent a synthesis of many different persepctives. But that synthesis is reached though hard work, and we only do that work because we have to. The internet is a huge generator of POV content in every form, but there are very few places making even a token effort to create NPOV content. Ethan Mitchell 14:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"spoiler tags ... subjective content .... POV-forks" I don't make or endorse those two industrial-strength leaps of logic. Tags generally, and spoiler notices in particular, are desirable specifically because they avoid the need for content forks, POV or otherwise.

Tags in the form of meta-tags are an extra set of references, which at the Wikipedia server level add showable/hidable editorial information to the NPOV content text. Any changes to the content text would take place at the browser level, or offsite, which is explicitly permitted by GFDL. Subjective content therefore remains virtual and ephemeral — an appropriate technical parallel to the unscientific ideas of belief that demand to be heard in some reasonable proportion to their notability.

I have specifically agreed with Phil that spoiler tags/notices should have no necessary effect on the NPOV content text. Spoiler tags only add editorial information, proposed to be off by default, and that's starting to sound like an acceptable policy for all meta-tags.

Your slippery-slope concerns as expressed, are unfounded if you accept the Hide'nShow spoiler notice compromise package. Milo 17:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think spoiler tags that are hidden by default are the first reasonable proposal I've seen for a change from the status quo at this point. There are, however, some large philosophical issues that need to be sorted out, and they are larger than this page is appropriate for.

1. To what extent should meta tags be used to alter Wikipedia away from its primary version. Spoiler tags, OK. What else? Offensive content tags? Unsourced statement tags? (These tags could, after all, be used as a variation on stable versions) Tags that filter out particular POVs? If the point of a tag is to change Wikipedia in some fashion, however small, from its primary version, we have to start evaluating what aspects of the primary version are things that we are willing to, ourselves, provide an alternative to.
2. The nature of a new tool like this is overproliferation. (See templates, categories, userboxes, and everything else that has ever been introduced on this project). These tags could quickly provide a serious barrier to initial usability whereby the act of editing an article for the first time becomes harder because there is more text and formatting that is not human-readable.
3. Is this something we hack the existing template system for, or something we try to add at a developer level? The former is easier, the latter is more powerful and probably better.

As I said, these are larger issues than this talk page is suitable for. I would suggest writing up a proposal on meta tags that addresses these issues and going from there. Phil Sandifer 18:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a better suggestion. Instead of trying to predict what will happen, and invent a general framework, let's try that on SWs and see. Such an experiment avoids points 2 (the tag in article would look like before) and 3, and for point 1, I am against any (hidden) tags that would actually alter the content of Wikipedia (spoiler warnings are not content). Samohyl Jan 18:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I suspect spoiler warnings are an overly large first test, and I do think this is something that a general policy discussion on is important. Phil Sandifer 19:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that your points #1, 2, and 3 are valid.

Those in #1 are properly part of your requested general policy discussion.

Point #2 is an already existing problem due to in-line references. I suggest multiple colorizations and/or font displays of non-content wikitext as a quick fix.

For point #3, a spoiler notice tag demonstration of meta-tags, using existing tools declared as prototypes for development code, feels project well-sized, 40+% popularly supported, and adequately-to-massively discussed here.

I don't want such a demonstration to fail, so I would not propose this without a good level of comfort that it could be technically successful. Such a demonstration would promote interest in the general meta-tag policy discussion of your issue points in #1. Milo 20:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Come on, Phil, what are you afraid of so much? There are precedents to that already: Earth, Predictive text, Absorption, Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything, The Mysterious Island (just check the source - the comments there are much more longer than SW tags). And that's just from a very few articles I know source of. Samohyl Jan 11:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Milo, I do not think the hide-n-show proposal is a good idea for exactly the reasons I am outlining above. I am not interested in having a semantic argument about content forking, though I imagine you would enjoy that (...tired grin...) My general sense is that a wikipedia in which two users (or 128 users) would view two different versions of a page (or 128 different versions of the page) raises issues identical to the ones we have dealt with around content forking. Yes, the changes would "occur at the browser level," but that is where the readers actually are.

I suppose I want to emphasize that while I find any spoiler warnings to be distasteful and inherently POV, what I'm really concerned about is the implication of having hide-n-show text content. But as Milo himself has frequently pointed out, the tags themselves are merely content, so a precedent for widespread hide-n-show content would be established by setting up such tags. And it would be a serious precedent in proportion to how trivial spoiler tags themselves are: if we can create (insert phrase like "forkable content" here) over movie plots, then obviously we can do the same for religious or political concerns. Perhaps we should move this debate over to WP:CFORK? But it seems to me like a very important one, and one which underpins this discussion. 68.142.57.9 03:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You might want to touchup edit your post after you get some sleep.

I think you meant to write: 'as Milo himself has frequently pointed out, the tags themselves are merely editorial information, but a precedent for widespread hide-n-show content would be established by setting up such tags.'

My intent for the Hide'nShow concept is to refer to the things that Wikipedia does on its servers. Since hiding article content at the server level would seem too much like censorship or content forking, Hide'nShow would be a promotional label applying only to hidable/showable notices and other non-content items on the server. I'm confident that article content hiding won't happen at the server level.

I think I understand your concern about article content hiding at the browser, but I believe most observers make a strong distinction between server-side and client-side actions as a matter of property law, which then diverges issues of actual usage between the two. As a result, one can't forecast the collective effects of client-user actions by simply measuring the actions of server-programmers.

Your concern seems to be that content-hiding in the browser has political parity with content-hiding in the server, but it's just a natural law that defaults tend to prevail by numbers over customizations. Customized article content-hiding by user action at the browser is unlikely to have any noticeable political effect, even if Wikipedia supplies showable tags that could be interpreted this way by a browser plugin. That's one reason editors in the middle can be persuaded to buy into Hide'nShow spoiler notice tags on the server-side. Milo 08:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Phil that the issues arising from the proposal to use invisible spoiler tags are broader than can be covered on this talk page. --Tony Sidaway 11:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Notice placed in key places

I have added a notice about the....conflict....in the usage of the spoiler tag on the project page and on the template doc page. I stand by this action as it let's potential users of the template know that as of right now the template's future is uncertain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carterhawk (talk • contribs) 05:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Where it *should* go....

Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure it seems obvious that there should be a distinct warning in place between the Rising Action and Climax of a plot summary. Many book summaries, for example, will detail key points of the Exposition and Rising Action parts of the novel, without revealing the Climax, Falling Action, or Resolution. Thus, to "spoil" someone, is to reveal the latter three parts of the fictional work in question.

Looking at the "debate" on this page, I'm lead to believe that many of the individuals biased against spoiler tags failed to learn anything about narrative in their primary school English classes. Plot summaries on wikipedia are not just one large block of information unto itself, but follow the same Dramatic Structure as the story they summarize. As such, it seems prudent to indicate to the reader when they have a reached a point in the summary that the risk revealing to themselves the climax and so forth of the story. While I understand the desire to preserve a strong "encyclopedic" format on wikipedia, I highly doubt we will ever see a detailed thousand word summary of Harry Potter and Deathly Hollows in the Britannica. Accomodations must be made for the sheer level of detail possible with a source of information that is both Gratis and Libre, and open to additions by anyone.

--Carterhawk 05:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, many of us did learn that in primary school. If you read the article, you'll note that it is "analysis of the structure of ancient Greek and Shakespearean drama." Many types of fiction do not follow that structure. Marc Shepherd 12:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

"many of us did learn that in primary school" Probably only a wealthy, relative few did so. Preliminary research suggests that the vast majority of USA students did not learn dramatic structure in primary/elementary school. Such teaching units are found in grades 9-10 in the 2002 Illinois public schools curriculum (including Chicago). Conversely, I found a Hollywood-region private academy, Crossroads (chaired by the legendary Peter Norton) that teaches dramatic structure in the first grade due to "a comprehensive fine and performing arts program". Many cities have specialty public high schools for performing and fine arts, but I'm unaware that they have any such elementary schools. Milo 23:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

If the reader looks at a section in our encyclopedia that describes the plot, it can be safely assumed that the reader wants to know the plot. The reader is aware that he's reading about the plot. If he does not want to know the plot he should not read it. --Tony Sidaway 07:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Any luck finding a definition of encyclopedia which prohibits spoiler warnings, or is still just something you've made up?--Nydas^(Talk) 08:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Any luck finding encyclopedias that include them? Normally, the burden of persuasion is with the person who wants to add material. As SW's are virtually absent from Wikipedia, that would be you. Marc Shepherd 12:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia, in the year 2006, had them. IIRC, it was the most comprehensive encyclopedia at that time. Oh, you mean paper encyclopedia? They can be hardly compared, because they lack many other things (for practical reasons) that Wikipedia has, such as hyperlinks or subheadings in articles. By such logic, these things are also unencyclopedic. As for the web encyclopedias, it has already been shown that most film encyclopedias on the web (including the largest one, imdb.com) have spoiler warnings (or avoid spoilers by other means). I am not aware of any special encyclopedias for literature on the web, for instance. My point is, Wikipedia is the best encyclopedia in the world, so holding other encyclopedias as a standard to it is just backward. Samohyl Jan 19:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

"As SW's are virtually absent from Wikipedia" Kinda stepped into that one, eh? I was just about to write the same point as Samohyl.

Wikipedia not only had 45,000 spoiler notices up until May of 2007, they were removed by process abuses and majoritarian force, which Nydas, Samohyl, I, probably most pro-tag posters here, and up to 40+% of readers/editors, do not recognize as valid, rules-based consensus.

Your position is like saying, 'I stole your fleet of exotic hovercraft vehicles, but I've got the cops in my pocket, and the majority either doesn't care or approves of my lawbreaking because they don't like hovercraft. So, to challenge my theft, you now have the burden of finding other jurisdictions where drivers are allowed to use hovercraft.'

While you don't approve of vehicle theft, you are supporting the equivalent gangster ethic in the abusive removal and suppressed return of spoiler notices. Milo 21:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that this is the most dangerous part of it. If this was _just_ about spoiler warnings, I might not care so much. If I was convinced that consensus was to remove them, I'd feel a pang of regret internally, because I do use them, but I'd be okay with it. The problem is that there's a method being used to artificially suppress them, in the lack of such consensus, and this it is dangerous to Wikipedia itself to allow this. If it becomes feasible for one side to assert their will on all of Wikipedia, not because of consensus but because of a gap in _ability_ to enforce, then that's a problem that people on both sides should address. When one side has metaphorical tanks, and the other just has soldiers, even if the numbers are relatively equal, in a battlefield the tanks will usually win. But Wikipedia is not a battlefield, it's an attempt at consensus building. Whoever has the biggest weapons shouldn't win because of that, and people who are employing them to do so are against the spirit of Wikipedia. Even if the tanks are on your side, you should be against the methods, because the tanks could easily be on the side against you in another issue. Wandering Ghost 12:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If you feel that strongly, bring the issue up (AGAIN) on some of the more visible places. The Village Pump, the ML, etc...I dunno, I often find myself wondering where the true consensus lies for various things, and wondering if "consensus = more people who care to revert" (not talking about SWs, but in general). I know some would hate it, but I'd love to see a dedicated discussion, again, toward using them INCLUDING how they compare with other notifications that we DON'T use, which to ME seems to be the same sort of thing. It DOES seem to me that more 'normal' editors want the warnings, percentage wise, compared to admins who want them. I don't know if it's observational bias, but it's what I've seen anyway. But such tilts inevitably are why a lot of people say consensus is where it is. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel exactly the same as Wandering Ghost. And people tried to bring this issue up on more visible places, but it was repeatedly denounced as "venue-shopping" by the opposers. Samohyl Jan 13:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I think trying to bring this to a wider audience to get a better idea of consensus on this is a good idea. Tomgreeny 03:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Gee, I thought I was making the fairly obvious point that SW's are currently absent on this site, and if they are to be added, the burden of persuasion is with those who wish to do so. A few folks stepped into the pointless diversion of arguing that the previous removal process was illegitimate. Indeed, it may have been. But complaints were lodged in multiple forums, without success. At this point, you have to get over it. Well, you don't have to, but crying over spilt milk has gotten you nowhere so far, and I don't imagine that will change. Marc Shepherd 04:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Your argument is in essence, that this contrived and false claim of consensus is a done-deal, thus placing a burden of adding-anew to those who would merely restore previous features removed abusively. Further understood, your argument is an attempt to defeat bone fide consensus-seeking principle by citing done-deal technicalities, which is impermissable wikilawyering.

You're too young to perceive the normal small increments of change in a minority-rights campaign. Tony is dimly seeing the handwriting on the wall. Phil is playing close to the vest, but I think he's starting to hedge his bets. Personally, I'm satisfied with the millimeter-by-millimeter progress made so far. Only an estimated 6 to 18 more months to go. Milo 08:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, archiving policy

I am once again forced to cease discussion on this page until a sane archiving policy is restored. It is unacceptable to force readers of this page to download tens of kilobytes of stale discussion just to keep up to date. --Tony Sidaway 03:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tony and have once again archived those threads. Marc Shepherd 04:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the threads you archived included a comment dated November 2. In what way is that stale? The other discussions are only a couple weeks old, also relatively recent for many users who only edit on weekends.

This talk page used to be close to 500KB, as are many talk pages. In what way is 115KB disruptive to a modern browser's ability to download the text? That's less than a one second download for most users. --Parsifal _Hello 04:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Marc Shepherd (edit summary 04:11, 4 Nov 2007) wrote: "Archiving old discussion per standard archiving practice" Not so. Aside from the spurious claim of "standard" of which there is none, the last apparently consensed formula at Wikipedia talk:Spoiler/Archiving debate was: archive uncommented discussions after 10 days UNLESS only 10 discussions remain. .

• Specifically, I (Milo 08:45, 22 Aug 2007) installed and set minthreadsleft to 20.

• Tony (11:43) set it to 4.

• Melodia (12:08) objected to 4 ("totally unreasonable"), and set minthreadsleft to 10.

• Tony (12:38) wrote, "10 is okay."

• Milo consensed this compromise with silence.

(Note: Mizabot's "minthreadsleft" = discussion sections remaining)

Obviously, Tony has recanted consensing to 10 minthreadsleft without previously revealing this change.

• Tony constructively consenses back to 4 minthreadsleft.

• Marc constructively consenses to 4 minthreadsleft.

• Milo still consenses 10 minthreadsleft.

• Parsifal constructively consenses to 10 minthreadsleft.

• Melodia consenses to 10 minthreadsleft, reasonably assuming she hasn't changed her mind.

• Analytically polled, that's currently 3 to 2 editors preferring 10 over 4 minthreadsleft.

Related, Nydas, Parsifal, Wilkinson, and Girolama had previously objected to excessive archiving and/or specifically to Tony's extreme proposal of talk page blanking (100% archiving after 10 days with no comments).

Also, I previously renewed the suspicion that the underlying purpose of this uniquely excessive talk page archiving is a further attempt to politically suppress discussion — this time by making it appear that a monumentally, perhaps historically large spoiler guide consensus debate of over 1,850,000 bytes, 4,000-some posts, and ~6 months duration (just this page since 5 May 2007), amounts to only four discussion sections.

This suggests to me that Tony knows he's already lost the debate on principle, and that the only way left to avoid practical compromise is to again abuse a consensus process. Milo 06:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I haven't changed my mind. If the bot would do its job, this wouldn't be an issue. I don't see 115 as long either, and lots of talk pages are far longer (not to mention, stuff like village pump, etc). Especially if there WERE comments from the other day....so why isn't the bot doing its job? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I also noticed the tapdancing done with the archiving debate by attempting to shift it to another discussion that nobody followed it to, and then asserting his own will again, and I am also in favour of less archiving, rather than more. I've had threads I've thought about following up on archived. If less archiving and a longer talk page causes certain people to leave the discussion, well, I'm forced to wonder whether that's really a bug or in fact a feature. Wandering Ghost 12:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)