Talk:Human brain

Congrats!

...kudos for whoever wrote the final paragraph: "The computational power of the human brain is hard to measure [...] it writes the equation." It's powerful

I just read the last paragraph. I came to this discussion page to create a congratulation section, and found someone had beaten me to it.

This is a beautifully written, powerful, evocative exposition. It captures the idea in a wonderful visceral way, easily providing the reader with true insight.

Whoever you are, I say, "Great job. Keep up the good work."

Nwbeeson 13:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Neocortex size

The human brain does not have the largest neocortex, as the article states. If we are only talking about primates, that's one thing.. but, elephants and dolphins have a larger neocortex. Before I change anything.. I'll get some academic references to back it up.

MrSandman 02:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

According to Dr. W.H. Calvin, in his book The River That Flows Uphill, the squirrel monkey has a larger brain to body ratio (1 to 31 or about 3.2%) compared with that of humans (1/49 or about 2.0%).

An article published in Natural History (December 1999-January 2000 issue) states: Pound for pound, the record for brain size is probably held by fruit-eating squirrel monkeys (genus Saimiri) of South America, whose brain account for 5 percent of their body weight, on average.

The hummingbird also has a larger brain/body ratio compared with that of humans. An article published in Brain Behavior and Evolution (37:85-91, 1991)states that the hummingbird has a brain mass of 228.85 mg and a body mass of 5,970.38 mg. This means that the brain-to-body ratio of a hummingbird is about 3.8%.

So, there is difference in opinion. One source says that the squirrel monkey has a brain/body ratio of 3.2% and another says 5%. Another source says that hummingbirds have a brain/body ratio of 3.8% which falls in the middle of the two values given for the squirrel monkey.

159.251.88.4 14:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

and in dolphins it's not actual brain mass but insulation 82.171.59.199 17:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Separate article on brain's anatomy?

I have noticed that the anatomy of the brain in this article is not very detailed. Especially if the coronal and horizontal sections were never shown. I wish to make a new article named "Human Brain (anatomy)", so that those who wish to know more can have a much more detailed anatomy of the brain. Also, in this article i will refer to come physiological functions of the different parts of the brain. I hope to hear feedback on this idea before I start, and hopefully there will be many other who are interested so they can also participate actively and help me out. Thank you. --LowLifer 03:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a good idea to start a new article on the anatomy of the brain - there's a lot more that could be covered that would otherwise make this article too long. It should then be a {{main|Anatomy of the human brain}} (I think this title is more appropriate, btw) link from the Anatomy section. Anyone want to start the article? I'll volunteer to help copyedit ... Alex.tan 00:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No dispute

There is no dispute over the content of this page.

One writer who has extra technical capacity, labeled an administrator, held a grudge against a person whom he thought was editing the article. The writer, RickK, went on a rampage of reverting articles edited by someone against whom he thought he held a grudge. That's all.

I don't know what KingTurtles goal was in blocking the article from further edits. At least, for now, he helped RickK control his behavior when RickK was otherwise unable to contribute to improving the content because of his raging hatred for a contributor he decided has no value.

There is no dispute over the content of this article and there never has been. It is a personality conflict driven by a long time contributor who feels his prejudices, based on his suspicions about the identity of writers, are a reliable guide for governing an open source project. Since users cannot be identified, attention to content provides a more reliable guideline than emotional reactions to personal suspicions.

RickK, and the handfull of other administrators who can be expected based on prior performance to jump into this or any other fray where they smell blood in the water, would do better to spend more time reviewing content and less time following their adrenal reactions when they get upset over circumstances they fear threatens their attachments to their status in a so-called community. Somebody else 05:15, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know the copyright status of Image:Nih_brainpic.jpg? It purports to be from the National Institutes of Health, which would probably make it copyright-free. But it appears that there may be reason to carefully review the contributions of the user who uploaded it. There appears to be a similar situation with Image:Human_brain_NIH.jpg and Image:Human_Brain_NIH.jpg (two very similar, but distinct, images). Wmahan. 21:18, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

I found the NIH page for Image:Human_brain_NIH.jpg and put that info on the image page. Image:Human_Brain_NIH.jpg was merely a horizontal flip of the former. I redirected all links to the former picture and removed the latter. →Raul654 21:34, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

Nice job, and thanks for the prompt response! Wmahan. 21:50, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

Note also that Image:brain.png and the following text were repeatedly removed by anonymous users before the page was protected: Correlation of particular conscious activities with likely neural structures suggest three levels of consciousness in humans. One theory devides human consciousness into a protoself, a core consciousness and an extended consciousness.

User:Somebody else, I am a little skeptical of your comments because of your lack of useful contributions to Wikipedia. Wmahan. 21:26, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

image says of "brain" but it's actually "preserved brain" =

towards the end of the article, in common misconceptions, it says "brain isn't grey, it's red". however, caption under photo says "brain". photo contains lots of grey colour. therefore it not a brain, it a preserved brain. someone please comment/update as appropriate. [[User:lkcl|lkcl] (unable to log in on) 26may2006

Placement of gruesome image

For those accustomed to seeing brains in laboratory settings, the upper placement of this image might be no problem. For others, especially those who may have had to wash away pieces of brain matter after a traumatic incident, placement of the image might tend to trigger unpleasant or even harmful memories. Since those who have seen brains before are not particularly served by one placement or the other, but those who may be sensitive to the issue could be disturbed, I recommend placing it lower on the page. Thus, readers have an opportunity to activate neuro-linguistic pathways that prime the brain for ideas about intimate exploration of externalized brains before parsing the image. Then, the image presents to a mind already contemplating brains in a laboratory setting rather than as a raw image that may trigger whatever thoughts of whatever might be their most recent or most defining experience with the subject of the image.

A better configuration might present the image in its original black background, as offered by NIH, or at least surrounded by a box. Not all readers are college students or graduates - some are veterans of war, or family members who have seen loved one's disembodied brain matter after a traumatic event. Since sometime sooner or later we will be experiencing the return to civilian life, and to the public readership, of recent war-veterans many of whom have been traumatized by viewing disembodied brain matter, and since their further traumatization might cause harm to them, their families or their communities, this consideration may be especially important. The top-of-page placement might be common style by force of habit in this project, but failure to consider diverse readers might be insensitive or even gratuitous.

In summary, if you are making scores of daily edits at Wikipedia based primarily on habit and subjective impressions, please pause a moment to contemplate the input of donors who have experience in matters regarding reader service, neurological assimilation of imagery and the social dynamics of traumatization.

Dubious 18:13, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This issue, where images on a page may be offensive to some, has come up before on (to my memory) Penis and John F. Kennedy assassination. Our policy is - Wikipedia is not bowdlerized, nor do we want to be. By your very own assertion, some people have bad memories associated with clowns - should that stop us from putting pictures on our clown article? Of course not. The picture here is much better than the old one - it is larger, higher resolution, and contains significantly more detial. It absolutely should go here.

It can also reasonable to conclude that the image with the most detail and resolution should be placed nearest the part of the article that contains the most detail and resolution. That way, the eye can go from text that explains details to images that exhibit those details. The top of the article is an overview, where competition for readers attention might distract from the overview or the table of contents. There has actually quite a bit of literature published on eye-movement and page layout. Sept. 11 was about the only time in recent publishing history when a major segment of the industry concurred that images best told the story and replaced dominant text with a dominant image in prime page-space. Dubious 19:02, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

However, as a compromise, I would suggest using the old image at the top of the page, and the more detailed (possibly offensive) one later on. That way - as you suggest - the easily offended would not be 'shocked' into seeing it early in the article. →Raul654 18:28, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

That would work. If Wikipedia is not bowlderized means reader service always takes a back seat to the most raw, potentially offensive presentation of any image, then we could find plenty of raw images to shock readers who first open a page. But placing the image lower on the page doesn't necessarily bowlderize the image - it simply places it in a context that might best serve the most readers (rather than perhaps in a place that best serves the most tenecious editors by enforcing arbitary policy at the expense of all other considerations). Bowlderizaton alone might not be reason to consider aspects of reader service, but somewhere, if Wikipedia policies do not already, they need to explain and suggest reader service.

Your suggestion is exactly what I considered. The only reason I had not replaced the top image with another is that I had not yet found an image that fills the space and serves the reader by offering new information. The MRI composite on lists of regions brings in some new information - it at least allows comparative analysis of two different human brains and viewing formats, but I suspect their is an even better image somewhere, or that may be composed, for that prime spot on the page. If your doing images on this page, you have my vote for that configuration. My other advice would be that the MRI-composite should be flipped if it is placed on the right of the page, and likewise the photo-image should be unflipped if it is ever placed on the left. Comparison with the original NIH version indicates this is actually a mirrored image, and as such is an inaccurate depiction. Dubious 18:48, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Removal of {disputed}

Given an almost total lack of "factual dispute" on this talk page, I'm removing the {{disputed}} message from the article. -- Yath 09:11, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Heart-brain neurodynamics

Is anyone familiar with neurocardiology, such as the research done at the Heartmath Institute? I've read mention that activity in neural tissue in the human heart has been shown to influence behaviour and higher cognitive functions.. "heart-brain neurodynamics". It seems like making reference to or linking to an entry on this area in this article could be pertinent for many individuals in their understanding of the brain, although I'm not familiar enough with the field to know if it's considered controversial.

The summary of the book Neurocardiology--Anatomical and Functional Principles, by J. Andrew Armour, M.D., Ph.D, writes "Groundbreaking research in the field of neurocardiology has established that the heart is a sensory organ and a sophisticated information encoding and processing center, with an extensive intrinsic nervous system sufficiently sophisticated to qualify as a "heart brain." nectarflowed 17 Sept 2004

Differences in male and female brains?

The male's and famale's brain is apparently quite different. However, there is no mention about it in the article.

Structurally, they are identical (IE, a male human's brain has all the same regions and connections as a female's). I suspect the difference is primarly chemical (IE, woman have a higher concentration of neurotransmitter X while men have more of neurotransmitter Y). →Raul654 11:02, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

That's bullshit, women consistently have a thicker corpus callosum. Babajobu 22:44, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think this associated press quote has interesting bearing on this topic:

"The scientific dogma used to be that hormones alone could “masculinize” the brain, he said. But he identified 54 genes that work differently in the brains of male and female mouse embryos just 10 days after conception — before sex hormones are ever produced. Doctors also once thought that how people were raised and their genitalia were enough to determine gender...But Reiner began seeing children who had been assigned to one sex as babies and a few years later began identifying themselves as the other." [1]

--Nectarflowed 19:28, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The male and female brain develope differences in the womb.Look up the case of John/Joan. In 25 different cases of babies having sex reassignment (male to female) as the children progressed they experienced difficulties with their sex and eventually most became homosexuals. In reality their homosexuality was heterosexuality because their brains couldn't cope with being a diiferent sex. Also women and men have different responses to stimuli (i.e in men when a part of the brain increases because of the stimuli a womens brain in this area will decrease.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.213.247.171 (talk • contribs)

Functions of parts of the brain

I've seen pictures that show what each part of the brain does (ie, the front lobe performs xx function). it would be nice to see that information of wikipedia. Jm51 02:35, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This article is indeed in dire need of a proper diagram of the brain. - Quirk 14:05, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mind and brain

I read there is no dispute over the accuracy of this article; however I think it implies we know more about the relation between mind and brain than we actually do. I also think an article on the differences between males and females would be welcome; I tried to find on starting here. Gene Ward Smith 19:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maturity

When does the brain fully mature?

I've seen claims that in humans there are still maturation events up until about an average age of 26. I'll try to hunt up a reference for that. --JWSchmidt 23:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

This is an article with the full text online that talks about "synaptic pruning, in determining the ultimate density of mature frontal lobe cortical gray matter". This study had a young adult group with average age 25.6 ± 2.0 years for which they reported that, "continued brain growth does occur between adolescence and adulthood in the very dorsal-most aspects of the posterior frontal lobes bilaterally and in the posterior inferior temporal lobes bilaterally". They discuss such changes in terms of maturation of the synaptic connectivity of the brain that usually involves reductions in total synaptic complexity and increases in the white matter of the brain. Some people have talked about these kinds of maturation processes continuing well into adulthood. I think it is important to try to match adult brain structural changes to cognitive changes that we are willing to call maturation of brain function. Some developmental psychologists have identified cognitive abilities that seem to mature in the mid to late 20s. For example, Kurt Fischer has talked about "principled reasoning" that only starts to develop in the mid-20s. Other researchers have suggested that some of the brain maturation that takes place in the 20s is important for allowing people to ignore distractions and concentrate on desired cognitive activities. --JWSchmidt 01:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Suggest Adding Info on the Human Brain's Estimated Memory Capacity

A very common question is "what's the storage capacity of human memory ?". Until very recently this was essentially unknown, because the actual physical mechanism underlying memory was unknown. There was some wild, unfounded speculation such as the referenced Morevec paper in the "Brain as Computer" section. [2]

However a recent authoritative research paper now estimates human memory capacity at 10^8432 bits, which is astronomical. If so, the Morevec paper's estimate of 100 million megabytes (10E14 bytes) human memory capacity is low by four orders of magnitude.

Discovering The Capacity Of Human Memory, Y. Wang, et al, Brain and Mind, Aug. 2003 [3]

This impacts statements in the section on "Brain as Computer" about expected timeframe for computer/brain computational equivalence. Unlike the Morevec paper this Wikipedia article didn't directly state total equivalence, but CPU parity. However this could easily be misunderstood. The reason is cognitive neuroscientists believe memory is the foundation of intelligence. IOW you need more than trillions of MIPS. You must also have memory capacity that, if not approaching the human brain, is at least a sizeable fraction of it. If so it will be a very long time before computer memory capacity remotely approaches that of the human brain. Joema 20:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggest Adding Info on Past Brain Analogies

It was good the section on "Brain as Computer" mentioned the flaws in this analogy. However I'd suggest adding a statement about previous historical analogies. During the industrial revolution the brain was likened to a complex machine. Later it was likened to a telephone switchboard. I myself remember that being taught in the 1950s. Machines and switchboards were the most complex commonly known items in those respective periods. Stating this helps to understand how the computer analogy is simply that -- a rough analogy. In fact the brain is not like a mechanical machine, or a switchboard, or a computer. It is completely different.

However suggest revising the statement "today's computers operate by performing often sequential instructions from an input program", since many large computers are massively parallel and can process many simultaneous instruction streams. The IBM Blue Gene/L supercomputer can have 65,000 parallel processors. Also each processor internally is simultaneously performing many parallel operations. [4] Joema 20:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

If a computer is programmed to survive, it might behave more like a brain and less like a machine. 

Humans have a large frontal lobe. That enables greater abstraction of sensory input than other life forms have. Humans lack strong teeth, sharp claws, or fur. The ablity to abstract is what makes humans able to adapt rapidly. The frontal lobe is strong enough to abstract the very act of survival itself and this is what makes the human brain very unique. It is possible that if human beings had sharp teeth, or claws, or fur, then the need to abstract would be lessened and this characteristic might disappear over time. The same could be said if humans had unlimited power that ensured their survival, for example, superior weaponry, large sums of inherited money, a nanny, a powerful family, or a social safety net that ensures survival. Life forms develop different areas of their brains in order to survive, and the human brain is no different from others in this respect.

Thoughts on article

After a cursory reading, I have some suggestions for this article that I'd like to open up for discussion:

• The overview section immediately begins with technical language that is inaccessible to a lay reader.
• The image highlighting the various lobes is with the function section, but that section only briefly mentions the frontal lobe. Perhaps the functions section should be expanded to discuss the functions of the specific lobes to correspond with the image.
• The function section also repeats information that is present in the myths section (only using 10% of the brain)...I think that paragraph should be removed from the functions section and the information incorporated with the listing in the myths section.
• Information about imaging techniques (MRI, CT, etc..) should be included...possibly in the study section.
• The articles listed in the see also section seem a little random--Jfurr1981 00:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggest rename of Myths to Popular misconceptions

The use of the word 'myth' isn't really correct from an academic perspective (see myth). Would anyone object to renaming this section to Popular misconceptions? --unsigned comment posted by WhiteCat

Sounds fine to me. Semiconscious • talk 17:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I third that and it's done. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 18:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, good. I've also tweaked the lead sentence in this section to match the change. More challenging is replacing the word 'Myth' prefixing each item in the list - is Misconception too clumsy? Is it necessary at all? WhiteCat 07:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Will that work (removed "myth" from beginings of bullets)? Also reworded 10% bullet. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 10:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It reads well to me. The Creativity can be easily developed using simple brainstorming/lateral thinking techniques item doesn't have any countering text with it, which makes it a little less obviously false, to my mind. Is there some background that can be added to this? WhiteCat 10:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't know the factual text. I am rather interested in the answer.--TheLimbicOne(talk) 19:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

deleted

"Thus, a male brain is about the same size as an equivalent female brain."

This sentence is completely illogical in context. It contradicts the previous two statements. If an average male brain has 100 grams more tissue than an average female brain, they can't be the same size. The article already established the greater importance of brain to body weight ratio. This further statement added no value and confused the point. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 20:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Too many links!

Regarding this recent edit [5], I think it adds too many links (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)). Can we tone it down a bit? Some are relevant, but lots aren't. Just from the first couple of sections alone, we've got links to: animals, species, sense, environment, average, kg, pounds, adult, cm, male, females, sexes, ratio, energy, body, heat, air, fluid movement (links to fluid dynamics), fluid, ml, day, death (!), mother, child, medicine, kingdom, year (!). WhiteCat 04:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd say something, but clearly I think it's okay. A lot of the words are difficult and not at all common. I don't think your average user with an average education would be able to define species, sense, average, kg, cm, ratio, energy, heat, fluid dynamics, ml, death, medicine, or kingdom. Some may seem more common, but may be of interest to a casual reader on a wiki-stroll. You link to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) states the following:

On the other hand, do not make too many links. An article may be considered overlinked if any of the following is true:

• more than 10% of the words are contained in links;
• it has more links than lines;
• a link is repeated in the same article (although there may be case for duplicating an important link that is distant from the previous occurrence);
• more than 10% of the links are to articles that don't exist; or
• low added-value items are linked without reason, e.g., 1995, 1980s and 20th century.

None of which are suggestions I'm close to violating. So yeah, that's my defense. Of course, with this being wikipedia if you choose to undo some links I won't complain, though I'd like to hear what others think first. Semiconscious • talk 06:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest some (certainly not all) fall into the low added-value items are linked without reason category. How are the concepts of day, average or kg (for example) specifically relevant to the human brain, or to the category in general? Once you start including links to topics like these which aren't immeditately relevant, then how do you draw the line? I could argue you've left out system, order, unique, the etc etc... Eventually, especially as wikipedia grows, what *won't* be linkable? Remember, any unlinked term a user doesn't recognise is still only a cut+paste+search away. WhiteCat 15:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think average and kg are two concepts that few people understand or will recognize; but this is all subjective. I'm admittedly a heavy interlinker. Day, year, mother, etc. may be excessive however. Semiconscious • talk 18:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it is subjective. I've found Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Wiki-Linking and Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context useful as a guide. So, here's a list of less-relevant links that I suggest we should remove, broken down by section:

• Anatomy: adult, kg, pounds, average, volume, cm, male, female, ratios, energy, body, infant, heat, air, fluid, ml, day, death, mother, child, medicine, kingdom, year
• Function: 19th century, biological, researches, behaviours
• Study of the brain: scientifically, 1990s, 21st century, millenia, studies, systems
• Popular misconceptions: grey, jelly red, chemicals, resins, advertisement, firing, cultural
• Brain enhancement: electric
• Comparison of the brain and a computer: analogies, 2030

What do you think? WhiteCat 08:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing! You're not going to get complaints from me. Stepping away from it now, what was I thinking? 2030, grey, and day?!? Some of them I do think are worth keeping however: medicine, kingdom, biology/biological, research/researchers, behavior/behaviours, science/scientifically; those are all related to biology, science, and research: definitely relevant to the article. All the rest I've gotten rid of. Does this sound like a reasonable compromise? Semiconscious • talk 20:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, thanks. WhiteCat 01:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Citation

I thought that WP:Cite Sources endorsed using a visible in text citation per the Harvard style. In anycase, I think it's appropriate to place a visible citation along with the link so that after a user links to the reference section, they know which reference they're looking for. If the citations are numbered and the reference section has corresponding numbers, only then would it be unnecessary to use the parentheses citation. Bottom line: I think it's more clear if the in text citation has some visible reference to the author or title (whichever is listed first) in the reference section. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 15:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Coloration of the Brain

The information on the color of the human brain may be innacurate, as many sources I have referenced including teachers (Sean Mars, Richland School District), Washington Knowledge Bowl, and others have said that the brain color is indeed gray, but is saturated with blood, which makes it appear red. Please confirm the posted information, and cite sources directly relating to the subject on the discussion page with regards to this issue.

Thank You, Mike Moceri

This is a picture of an exposed human brain during surgery. It is clearly reddish in color due to the huge amount of vasculaturization. I have other photos taken during surgeries that confirm what this site is saying, but I don't have the permissions to post them. There aren't really any more references because, well, that's just what the brains look like. The grey color is caused by the preserving process. Brains also appear grey in MRI scans. However the living brain is very much red-colored. Semiconscious • talk 08:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, Semi? Brains are gray in an MRI because the image is in black and white. I think the question is what color is a brain when the blood is removed. From first-hand experience, when blood is flushed out of a brain using saline perfusion, the brain is a pinkish beige, niether gray nor red. This is a process I've done many times to prepare mouse and rat brains for immunohistochemistry or in situ hybridization. Sayeth 12:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Where did I say anything that disagrees with this? Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like we're in agreement here. :) Semiconscious • talk 17:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

To my way of thinking, at surgery, the brain tissue is not "red", the arterial blood or extravasated venous blood (once leaking and exposed to oxygen) is red. The intact veins and venous sinuses are dark blue / purple, but that does not make the brain itself red, white and blue. I think one should refer to the colour of the nervous tissue itself. Surgically, in a live person, the brain nerve tissue is very much off-white. The picture you refer to shows the fine vessels outside the brain tissue, with what looks like intact arachnoid, and an obvious almost black vein. Dissecting into the brain itself shows mostly white to grey nerve tissue, not red. When the brain during surgery goes "red" it is sometimes referred to as an "angry brain", and a sure sign of some disaster that has happened causing blood flow to alter (often followed by severe and catastrophic swelling, with a poor prognosis). This may be related to the "pinkish" that Sayeth refers to, or may change with the kind of light being used. If someone said my brain was "red" I'd be very worried. Maybe my observation are biased, in that one sort of ignores the redness, since one is more interested in the white parts! Yet I think one should follow the convention used in describing other organ systems, in that one usually refers to the bloodless colour, e.g. the colour of bone, thyroid, pancreas, liver, heart (muscle is definitely red, and pale brownish colour when preserved in formalin) generally refers to the colour of the active organ tissue itself, rather than to the blood vessel colours. --Seejyb 23:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Neuroscience project to make this a featured article

I read on the Neuroscience project which I've just joined that there is an intention to work on this article becoming a featured one. (Terrible sentence I know but I'm hung-over. At the moment this is a neuroscience article and not at all accessible to a lay reader. That said, it is all correct! I'm starting to feel that some articles need two pages; one for a lay audience and one for a technical audience.--PaulWicks 12:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Power

I have heard that the human brain is remarkably efficient; it can operate on only 12 Watts of power. Perhaps someone else knows a little more? In any case, I think the required power for a human brain is relevant and should be added. --???

This is a very important point in my opinion too. There is a brain-computer comparison in the article that claims brain to be massively parallel system in terms of computing. If this was true the brain would require and emit a lot of energy. I would appreciate some links to different views on the matter. It's rather a clever structure that we don't understand and not the computational power that makes the difference. What this mean is that the parallel processes of the brain may be sequentialized in a different and cost-effective model. It may also mean that digital intelligence once created may be much more efficient than our brains on PCs available nowadays. --Agsamek 20:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

You are thinking about it the wrong way. The brain communicates via chemical messengers as well as electrical gradients.. it's more commplicated than the computer example.

Only 10% of Neurons Fire Simultaneously

The above claim is made in the main article. I have been unable to locate an academic reference to this. Can a direct reference be provided? -- User: RainOfSteel (no user page) 22:22 MDT, 22 March 2006

I'm not sure about Neurons, but according to What the Bleep?, the brains processes over 400,000,000,000 (400 billion) bits of information a second, and are aware of only about 2,000 of them, whichs is 0.0000005%. I guess most of that is neurons. --Firehawk1717 01:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the entire notion is bogus and can be safely deleted. Firehawk, so far as I know there is no direct relationship between the complexity of information and the number of neurons "firing". I don't quite know where those numbers come from, it could easily be accounted for by visual input alone. However the brain is full of pre-attention systems that filter out the vast majroity of information and translate it into a format we recognise. There are a range of psychiatric disorders that show us what happens when those filtering systems malfunction...--PaulWicks 19:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments. RainOfSteel 14:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The above link to "What the Bleep?" is not working at the current moment. I have seen the movie. I found it interesting, but I also recognize that statements are made within it that do not find wide acceptance in the scientific/physics community, and therefore am not sure of the reliability of its statements on cognitive neurobiology. RainOfSteel 14:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Nitpicking fun: 'Known' species?

Regarding this edit [6], isn't by definition a species known, since it's a classification? Regardless, I think the qualifier of 'generally regarded' already does enough from making this statement too absolute... WhiteCat 07:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

CSF does not affect weight, and a gram is a unit of mass

I'm too tired to edit the page. It's much easier to ramble. Here's the problematic line:

"a brain that weighs 1,500 g in air weighs only 50 g when suspended in CSF (Livingston, 1965)."

Anyone who didn't sleep through Physics 1 sees the problems. A 1,500 g mass is a 1,500 g mass in air, in CSF, on Mars, anywhere except on that mythical spaceship going .999 * c (the speed of light).

Things don't get "lighter" in different media. They get lighter in weaker gravitational fields.

Looking at the weight article I think we can get away with using the "widely-used practical technical definition" here. Or we could write 'has an apparant weight of' instead, but that seems a bit clumsy - does the reader care? WhiteCat 05:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggest: Add info about what is good for the brain and what is less good.

I think it would be good to add some information about certain facts that are proved by scientists, on what things are good/bad for the brain. 213.66.93.205 12:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Controversial. --PaulWicks 19:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Definition

By definition the human brain is the most complex thing concievable. More complex things may exist but using our brain we cannot concieve what they may be. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Motor function

"The human brain is the source of the conscious, cognitive mind. The mind is the set of cognitive processes related to perception, interpretation, imagination, memories, and crucially language (cf. Broca's area) of which a person may or may not be aware. Beyond cognitive functions, the brain regulates autonomic processes related to essential body functions such as respiration and heartbeat."

From this paragraph should I assume the brain has nothing to do with motor function? --Gbleem 23:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Err, what?

I don not understand an analogy presented in the section explaining the possible sexual dimorphism of the brain. At the very end of the paragraph it says that comparing the weight of two home computers gives "useful" information about their performance. Err, what? I'm pretty sure the laptop I am using at the time of writing (made in 2004) is vastly superior to an old computer (i.e. the ones made in the 80's). Geohevy 03:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

"It should also be noted that because of these differences in brain development and function, correlation between weight and even grey-matter may be insignificant; much as comparing the weight of different home computers will give little useful information about their efficiency." --JWSchmidt 04:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I just noticed that it says little information. XD Geohevy 20:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

What a Turing Machine is

lolzz I took out the following:

(which shows that any computation that can be performed by a parallel computer can be done by a sequential computer)

Turing's thesis states that anything that is computable can be computed with a turing machine, and that if a Turing machine can't compute it, then it is impossible to compute. The statement I took out was irrelevent tangent to Turing machines. Epachamo 00:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, a computer is not a Turing Machine. Epachamo 00:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Von Neumann Model

From the article: "Ultimately, computers were not designed to be models of the brain". I do not believe this to be entirely true. One of the main contributers to the contstruction of the computer, John Von Nuemann tried to model the computer after the human brain [7]. He even wrote a book about it, called "The Computer and the Brain." Even Alan Turing was keen to the idea of a computer modeling the brain [8]. As a side note, since the tape on the turing machine is infinite, it seems to me that although it is digital, it could perfectly model any analog process conceivable. I further fail to see why it would matter that the human brain is digital or analog. Turings thesis states that anything that can be logically contrived (algorithmically) can be contrived through a turing machine [9]. In other words, no matter how the brain works, it still can't compute more than a turing machine. Maybe I am not understanding something. Could someone please explain? Epachamo 22:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Neurotransmitters?!

Where is the talk of NT's??? I noticed this when they were excluded from the comparison of computers to the brain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.69.14.35 (talk) 07:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Brain <> computer comparison (amateur)

Due brain design and their materia it is obvious that ther processing power is parallel-analog. But since analaog information can be (easely) distorted, so can be our vision (optical frauds, etc), taste, memoires and so on. Hand-shaking is an example: like feed-back from speaker to microphone: you get oscillations. It is also obvious that small brain is 'older' in design, thus it is used for more 'ancient' and primary functions (compare it to BIOS in PC, if you like) such as pulse rate, breathing and movement of muscules. Large brain has become developed by thinking, talking, and emotioning etc. Basic building blocks of brain must be realitively simple (like assembler code). But through combinations of connections between them they evolved into new types with more funcionality and efficency. Also, development phase of brain (ex. childhood) is very coincidential and randomized, so later each individual can have it's own attitude and capabilities. There could be connection between brain development and prolongth of life (longer life-> more developed brain) also. It is not possible to simulate brain on computer. At least not with technology we have now. If we would be able to build parallel analog electronic computer, we would be much closer. Analog procesing is much more efficient than digital though it may not be accurate as much.

While much of what you say might be true, it appears speculative and sounds like original research. I don't recommend putting it into the article. This article about a researcher in Florida who combined rat brain tissue and a computer to control a flight simulator might be of interest to you. Also, there is such a thing as an analog computer Epachamo 00:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

g as unit for weight?

In the following sentence: "The brain is suspended in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), which also fills spaces called ventricles inside it. The dense fluid protects the brain and spinal cord from shock; a brain that weighs 1,500 g in air weighs only 50 g when suspended in CSF (Livingston, 1965)"

the metric untit gramm is used as a measurement for weight, which is wrong as far as I know. gramms are only used as units for mass. And I don't think that the mass of the brain changes in the fluid.

Newtons. But seriously, most people take gravity at 9.8 as a given. On the other hand, I suppose we're here to make people think...

The gravitational field is numerically equal to the acceleration of objects under its influence, and its value at the Earth's surface, denoted g, is approximately 9.8 m/s². From gravity.

Also see Weight#SI units.

Samsara (talk • contribs) 08:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comparison of the brain and a computer, central error

The dramatic conclusion to the comparison revolving around hard wired abilities is in fact false, many modern computer components come with wiring to pefrorm certain common tasks with much greater efficiency, and this hardwiring does not need to be limited to simple functions see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_card

Stalinbulldog 10:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

100 trillion instructions per second?

If this figure is correct, I would like to point people to this BBC article about a new supercomputer that can runs 10 times faster than that. -- 212.44.19.206 10:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Its information thats been taken out of context, the prediction was for a thousand dollar computer, I don't know what Blue Gene/L costs but I think it would be a little more than that right now. -- Dan R

Most of brain matter is redundant?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors.html

An interesting article of tiny-brained man with shocking pictures. - G3, 08:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC) mkjhgfdgkjlşkjhgfhh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.151.53 (talk) 17:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Neurophysiology, not Function

When we are discussing the physical structure of the brain, we are talking about neurophysiology, not function. This is pretty basic stuff. When we are talking about what the physical structures do, we are talking about the function of the parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Promodulus (talk • contribs) 22:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Do individual neurons compute in binary?

There is a statement in the last line of the article body, under "Comparison of the brain and a computer", which says "It is important to note, however, that individual neurons do compute in binary." Do they? I think they do, but I don't see a source. I'll remove the statement until somebody can find a source. I'll be looking for one too, so this shouldn't take very long. monroe transfer surprise delight 22:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, nobody's responded, so I'm going to get working on this myself. I'd REALLY appreciate it if somebody more knowledgeable could help me out in verifying/falsifying the claim. monroe transfer surprise delight 18:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The Length of the Brain

I cannot recall the length of the average human brain if it were to be "unfolded" and laid out in a straight line, perhaps i can get some help on this matter. Or am i thinking of the length of the small intestine laid out? I know that fact is floating around somewhere out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.55.116 (talk) 06:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, you're thinking of the intestines. The brain has no "length", as it's not composed of strings or fibers. monroe transfer surprise delight 18:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Grammar Problems

Under Study of the Brain, the second to last paragraph is:

The first language area within the left hemisphere to be discovered is called Broca's Area, after Paul Broca. It turns out that Broca's area is not just a matter of getting language out in a motor sense, though. It seems to be more generally involved in the ability to deal with grammar itself, at least the more complex aspects of grammar. For example, when they hear sentences that are put into a passive form, they often misunderstand: If you say "the boy was hit by the girl," they may understand you as communicating that the boy slapped the girl instead.

Not only does it not say who "they" are or is, but it seems like it is using they for a singular person. In addition, the last sentence is generally unclear. For now I will change it to:

The first language area within the left hemisphere to be discovered is called Broca's Area, after Paul Broca. The Broca's area doesn't just handle getting language out in a motor sense, though. It seems to be more generally involved in the ability to deal with grammar itself, at least the more complex aspects of grammar. For example, it handles distinguishing a sentence in passive form from a simpler subject-verb-object sentence. For instance, the sentence: "The boy was hit by the girl." implies the girl hit the boy, not the other way around. As a simple subject-verb-object interpretation it could mean: "The boy was hit by the girl.", and therefore, the boy hit the girl.