Talk:Ms.

Full Stop Or Not

quick straw poll on whether to move this article: what do style guides around the world say for the full stop after Mr, Ms, Mrs?

• Fowler: none
  • Actually Fowler does deal with it, giving the account that give below. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Chicago: unsure, I think. Ortolan88 wrote something about it on the St page

What about other english-speaking countries? Australia? -- Tarquin 14:11 23 May 2003 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford, the Globe and Mail Style Book, and the Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers all use the period for Ms., as well as for Mr. and Mrs. - Montréalais 20:45, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The 'Style Guide for Authors, Editors and Printers' by AusInfo/the Australian Government Publishing Service prefers 'Ms', along with 'Mr' and 'Mrs'. FWIW, they recommend the pronunciation listed in the Macquarie Dictionary, which is /m@z/ (i.e. with the relaxed vowel of about, rather than the vowel of 'mister'). 203.82.183.147 07:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

American (that apparently includes all of North America) usage always demands periods after abbreviated titles. No period is strictly British usage, and that of and most of its colonies and former recent colonies. Softlavender 11:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that Miss is old-fashioned, it's still widely used here in the UK, I would have thought it's still more common than Ms. Also, I pronounce it as mz, not mizz, am I alone in this or is this a varient pronunciation? fabiform | talk 14:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I too say (and hear) mz. Njál 20:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I was taught that since Ms is not an abbreviation it doesn't take a period (or full stop for those using the queen's english) Was anyone else taught that way?

65.209.165.170 18:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I was also taught no period - basically, Ms is it's own word, it's not an abbreviation for anything; but on those occasions when it comes up it becomes clear to me that NO ONE ELSE (except 65.209.165.170) was taught that. Similar disagreements occur regarding often. Fitfatfighter 04:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ms. appears to be a US usage. Ms is British usage (and Australian, New Zealand, etc). --veracity-or-mendacity 14:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Master

Somewhere, I'd like to put a note to the effect that a "Miss vs Mrs" equivalent does exist for men. It's not used at all in the United States as far as I know, but I certainly remember being called by the title "Master" when I was in England. Is this still current usage, and where would be a good place to note it? It's an interesting tidbit... Isomorphic 01:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How long is it ago that you were in England? It's certainly not in common usage anymore. Except for maybe extremely posh parts of the country. And Captain Pugwash. --Maikel 14:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

PS: according to the Wikipedia article on Master (form of address), the title has never been intended for unmarried or "virginal" men. In fact, quite to the contrary. --Maikel 15:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Master isn't widely used in the UK, but it's widely understood as being a male child. For example, the card game Happy Families demonstrates this readily. A lot of children still play games like these. The Warburton's website even has an interactive version! Ithika 15:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No Stop For The Wicked

I've just added the standard British English (without the full stop — which I'd have thought was peculiar even in U.S. English). The standard British approach is that the full stop is used to mark the cutting off of a word at that point (such as "Street" to "St."), but not otherwise (so "Saint" to "St", as well as "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr", etc.). Needless to say, many people get it wrong, and English is no longer really taught in schools... but that's another issue. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Try telling that to the folks over at Ms. magazine. --Maikel 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

American usage is not British usage. "Ms." is an American term. Therefore the article gets American usage. Softlavender 11:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

By that logic the use of Dr, Mr, Mrs, etc. should all follow the British use of these terms. And as a matter of fact Ms doesn't 'get' a full stop (i.e. period) in the UK. Donnachadh 22:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ms., full stop (period), as per 15th ed. of Chicago

Ms. (or Ms) is a title used with the last name or full name of a woman.

Is "Miss" or "Ms." used alone as a term of respect in inner city regions of the US? --zandperl 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Ms. is Ms. in the U.S., just as we use Mrs. and Mr. (not Ms or Mr or Mrs -- she'd be Mrs. Miniver here!) I pronounce Ms. as miz, rhymes with whiz, liz, fizz; otherwise it's hard to say. --136.183.17.106 21:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)maryinbuffalo. I also just changed and, I believe, corrected the entry for Ms. based on my memory of the evolution of the term from the 1960s til now.

Moved passage from article

I've moved this addition by an anon editor to the Talk page; can anyone provide citations for these claims?

"During the 1950s and 1960s in the United States, "Ms." was the correct form of address when writing to a woman whose marital status was unknown to the writer. (Miss was reserved for unmarried women of any age; Mrs. referred to a married woman.) Because the title Ms. did not refer to a woman's marital status, its usage was championed as non-sexist language beginning in the 1970s, by those who argue that a woman's marital status is irrelevant and should not be revealed by her title. Starting in the 1970s, many women insisted on being called Ms. because they shared that perspective. A feminist magazine chose the title Ms. because it did not indicate a woman's marital status. As time went on, those who preferred to be addressed as "Ms." were perceived as feminists, and those who did not choose to be so perceived avoided the term, leading to the misapprehension that "Ms." was a term coined by 1970s-era feminists and to the politicization of the term."

--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Here's something that I can't get my mind around: what's the point in introducing a new term "Ms" that is pronounced exactly like "Miss", i. e. the term one tries to deprecate? Why not just use "Mrs." [MISSIS] for all women, regardless of their marital status? --Maikel 14:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Although 'Ms' can be pronunced like 'Miss', it is not necessarily so. Most people pronoucne the S as a Z, and many people pronounce the vowel like in About, rather than in Miss. Also, Ms is trying to depricate not only Miss, but also Mrs, so what would be the point in using a new term Mrs that is pronounced (and written) exactly like Mrs, i.e. the term one tries to depricate? Why not just use 'Miss' (with a small spelling change and perhaps a pronunciation change, to reduce the chance of confusion) for all women, regardless of their marital status? —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 00:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on pronunciation. As for the substitution of "Miss" and "Mrs" by "Ms", my position is that the simple deprecation of "Miss" -- i. e. the general usage of "Mrs" for all women regardless of their marital status -- would have been the better and far easier solution; incidentally, and for instance, this is how the problem has been addressed in France and Germany. --Maikel 13:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Maikel -- "Ms." is NEVER pronounced "Miss." To do so would invalidate the creation of the term in the first place. It is always pronounced "Mizz." To pronounce it other wise is incorrect. Softlavender 11:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ms used as early as 1700s

I was surprised to see that the article says Ms was used as early as the 1700s. I have seen 'mistress' and 'Mrs' used in that period as a respectful title but without implications of marital status, but have never seen 'Ms'. I checked the OED whose earliest reference is "1932 N.Y. Times 29 May III. 2/8 In addressing by letter a woman whose marital status is in doubt, should one write ‘M's’ or ‘Miss’?". Any citations for earlier usage? Bluewave 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. Neither the OED nor Merriam-Webster has a pre-20th C citation. The current version of the Wikipedia article contradicts itself, going on to say that "The use of Ms as a title was conceived by Sheila Michaels in 1961" (which implies that the modern use was conceived completely independently of whatever was or wasn't done sporadically in the 1700s, and that the previous paragraph was therefore wrong to deny that the use of Ms was the invention of modern feminism). Furthermore, the notion that the use of Ms as a title was conceived in 1961 appears to be untrue, given the OED citation that you give. -86.134.90.205 23:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Miss is not "old fashioned" and Mr/Master

In the UK, Miss is most certainly not old fashioned or out of use. Admittedly I've never worked in a high level office situation of sorts, but I've only personally known 1 woman who went by "Ms" and she was a widow who used it to avoid awkward questions about her husband. In the way some of my girl friends use it, I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free.

When I was a child I was always referred to as "Master" and it is an option on forms that young people may fill out. Unfortunately, my bank and everything else I was signed up to changed me to "Mr" on my 16th birthday (when you become an independant adult in the UK). Rather than campaigng for Ms, I'd rather campaign for Master so that I don't always have to answer the phone with "which Mr MacFarlane?".

You're quite right. I do database work for a UK company that takes sales orders directly from customers over the internet. According to our records, far, far more female customers call themselves Miss than Ms. -86.134.90.205 23:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

In Australia, it's considered polite to use Ms when you don't know a woman's preference. I know many women who are insist on being a Ms, while others still prefer Miss or Mrs. Personally I would take offence at being addressed as Miss (since I am not a flighty sixteen year old) or Mrs (since although I am married, I do not use my husbands surname). Oooh yes. I'm one of those nasty feminists. --veracity-or-mendacity 14:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Señora/Señorita

The article mentions that the non-sexist form of address in Spanish is señora, but it's been my understanding that if I do not know a woman's marital status (or whether she's a virgin or not, which is supposedly also used as a distinction between señora and señorita), the safest route is always to use señorita, even if it's an 80-year-old woman.

Portuguese Senhorita

Just like British and American English present different ways of addressing, however minor they may be, so it happens with Portuguese. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal presents important differences from Portuguese as spoken in Brazil. As such, a Brazilian would call a young unmarried woman as senhorita, but not a Portuguese, who would say menina.

Since this is the first time I'm doing any sort of editing at Wikipedia, I feel a bit uncertain about editing the article. However, the examples at the end ought to have the Portuguese with the two words, senhorita / menina.

Sarai --85.240.249.102 18:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Citations - problem with spacing

For some reason the citation I gave has irregular spacing in the "Notes" section - there's an enormous space between two of the words ("Cultural" and "Heritage"). Does anyone know how to fix it? --DearPrudence 02:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"The tape was erased for re-use by volunteers who regarded the Women's Movement as a joke."

Removed as the specifics of this interview aren't relevant to the subject matter. 195.24.29.51 13:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Inaccuracies and odd UK slant of article

Ms. is an American invention. Why is this written with a very clear and noticeable UK slant, even mentioning the titles of nobility in the first sentence? Why are style standards quoted from UK publications and not American?

And why is it claimed that most women prefer to style themselves Miss or Mrs.? That's clearly incorrect.

Bottom line: As "Ms." is an American word, this article needs Americn punctuation, American citations, and American usages. Softlavender 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: Done. Article so edited. Softlavender 10:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Softlavender, where does it say Wikipedia articles should take the US usage as default? I seem to recall the directive to be merely to keep British or US usage consistent within an article, however in this case I think it could be argued - since the article is a discussion of the term itself - that it should contain mention both usages. However, it appears someone else has already seen the need and fixed that already.

Also, I've also listed a reference to a US source regarding usage of Ms. to keep you happy. --veracity-or-mendacity 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi -- Nowhere did I state that U.S. usage is or should be Wikipedia default -- only that this article about an American word should be U.S. usage except where British usage is described. Also, it was I (not "someone") that retained the British usage when Britain is discusssed -- you can verify that by the versions I produced. Lastly, thank you very much for providing a U.S. citation. All of my reference books (e.g. CMS) were lost in a move. Softlavender (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Teacher called "Miss"

Someone has requested a citation for "... British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status." This is a simple fact of British society and, in my opinion, does not need a citation to support it although I can understand non-Brits questioning this. Finding material that demonstrates this and including proof that the teacher is indeed married may be difficult.
Laurie Lee's short story Village School features the crabby Miss B and her successor Miss Wardley. The children address Miss Wardley saying "Oh, miss, please miss, can I go round the back?" and "Please, miss, I got to stay 'ome tomorrow...". Does anyone know of a suitable citation where a married teacher is addressed as "Miss"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.181.71 (talk) 11:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the pronunciation

There was a second pronunciation listed for the schwa sound instead of the short i sound. The schwa sound is incorrect -- I've never heard it pronounced that way in 37 years, and I can find no printed substantiation of that, so I removed it. (Besides, as far as I am aware, the schwa sound occurs in polysyllabic words, not in single-syllable words.) Softlavender (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's often pronounced with the schwa sound in the UK. Although it is a single-syllable word, it doesn't have a written vowel, so a lot of people pronounce it without a vowel.Bluewave (talk) 12:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been looking around for substantiation of this and there certainly some examples where it is rendered phonetically as "muz", which I take to be an attempt at the schwa sound. For example, "Don't call me Muz", "Muz Germaine Greer", "I've always pronounced Ms as muzz". Bluewave (talk) 13:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)