Talk:List of Cuban Americans

Let's work to provide proper references for the sources of information on this page, shall we? I added a "References" section and included the first item. Be advised that I am new to Wikipedia, so I would appreciate the guidance of more experienced members. Regards, Jerseycube

Hi, I'm not new, but remain a knucklehead. I don't know why my name was deleted from the list of Cuban Americans. However. I am one of those Cubans and a screenwriter, too. Someone told me my name had been deleted and I came to check, then I tried to fix it -- feebly. Please, refer to my page, which is small and you may wish to refer to the IMDb -- although not everything I've done as a screenwriter or actress is listed there. I am a screenwriter/actress. Manny is a producer/screenwriter, etc., so he should be on the screenwriters list, too. I'm alone on that list. Please, if you'd be so kind as to correct the order, if needed, of place me somewhere else on the list. Thanks so much Mig 00:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC) Oooops! Our names are very Googleable and this will appear on the Web if my name or Manny's name are on it. Please check out Manny's, and my name, from the roster of Cuban-Americans. Sorry --Mig 01:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello Mig. Screenwriter and actress supreme you may be, good wikipedia editor you are not! Please remember not to add your signature to the articles themselves in future. Good luck!-- Zleitzen^(talk) 14:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, thank you! Darn tootin' and I signed my name twice. Having added Jaime Suchlicki to the list of CA political leaders. I've got to have quiet time. So sorry -- the instructions said to sign and I follow directions like a good CAP. Mig --

References below and people who add their names here and have no links to any website

Alisa Valdes Rodriguez and Orestes Matacena were listed twice as writers in two separate categories. Mig 17:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Nely Galan had no links to her credits at all and no informational page. Mig 17:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Jorge Moreno, Latin Grammy award winner and Grammy nominated artist, discovered by Madonna has no link to his name -- despite being "discovered" by Madonna. Mig 15:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ramon Rodriguez Torres has no verifiable evidence.Mig 12:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

+ *Rick A. Diaz, magazine technical writer/photographer has no links to any websites and I removed him with all due respect until more information is available. Mig 15:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ruben Rabasa has no link at all and there's no history of his being added by anyone.Mig 13:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

References for "Manny tha Great"

Google came up empty on "Manny tha Great" and there are no references for this person, so I have deleted the entry. I've never heard of this person. Thanks in advance for any help. Jerseycube 17:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC) Jerseycube

Mig 14:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC) Who was Natasha? The Argentine-Cuban bombshell? There was no reference.

Walt Disney was Right

Jaime Suchliki was one of my professors at UM in the 1970s. Walt Disney was right: it's a small world, after all. Jerseycube 17:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC) Jerseycube

Hi, Jerseycube -- Jaime's wife Carol sent me an email in that he considers himself a writer. So I moved him. Hope it's okay. He's written many historical books on Cuba and Mexico, i.e. Cuba: From Columbus to Castro, now in its fourth edition, and Mexico: From Montezuma to NAFTA (1996). Mig 14:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Your help is much more than okay: it is very much appreciated. Happy Easter! Jerseycube 03:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your well wishes, Jerseycube! I need them now more than ever. I wonder if I could start a prayer chain of some sort -- just kidding/not. In any event, Carol Suchlicki sent me another email in which she says that Jaime is better known for his books than for the Bene debacle. I guess Bene is rather controversial in Miami -- a place where controversy reigns supreme. Take care and all that good stuff. Does cube stand for Cuban? -- just curious. Mig 16:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Can't edit the stuff on me -- I don't think the links are working. Please, help me!!!Mig 00:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Mig 21:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)== Misc? ==

None of Oscar Torre acting credits has a link or checked out as being in existence. His biographical page seems self-serving. Mig 11:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Okay, why was the Screenwriter category deleted? I was the only person on the list. Migdia Chinea Mig 17:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to edit it myself and did an awful job of it, please change as you see fit. If you go to IMDb, I have some stuff there -- not everything makes it, just the stuff that has aired. Now -- I'm in the middle of coking for my family who will be here any second! Happy Mother's Day

I'm open to suggestions for creating a new section to place Lily Estefan, Raul Molina, reality show contestants and other television personalities who are not reporters/journalists on the Entertainment category. How about "Television Personalities"?

Note that I have renamed "References" to "Footnotes" and have reformatted the footnotes for consistency. I'm a newbie at this and would appreciate feedback. Jerseycube 19:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC) Jerseycube

Good work Jeseycube, everything looks fine.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 16:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Added Orlando Leal, Leon Ichaso and Camilo Vila in the directors category -- Mariane Pearl to the journalists, authors category -- I'm still the only woman screenwriter. Pathetic.Mig 07:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nelson Gonzalez is probably another spammer. Mig 21:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC) What's this LOOOOONG entry by Orestes Matacena? Is it his resume?Mig 16:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Isabel Perez Farfante has no link to anything at all. I've deleted the entry until there's something of note.Mig 16:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Armando Fernandez has nothing about him vis-a-vis the mouse pad. This must be a joke. I've deleted the entry until something of note can be found. Mig 16:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Orlando Sanchez is a comedian, nor has he ever been to my knowledge a serious candidate for any local Miami election. Mig 17:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Enrique Lopez is very likely another spammer Mig 21:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Orestes Matacena and Ruben Rabasa's self-advertising entries. Mig 21:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Edited with citations Mig 03:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oscar Torre doesn't check out. His bio seems self-advertising. His acting credits don't link up to anything. I deleted him until his information can be verified. Please check out his Wikipedia bio page. Mig 11:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Ricardo Perez cannot be verified, I've deleted him until something comes up Mig 16:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Jorge Moreno -- well, nothing checked out - and I looked all over the net. I don't believe that being "discovered" by Madonna is a calling card until some accomplishments exist. I have deleted him until some further information on Moreno can be found. Please, forgive me, as I apologize and thank you for your patience. Mig 13:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I have added great Afro-Cuban master percussionist Francisco Aguabella to the Famous Cuban-Americans list -- I've met him and he's one of the most modest and nicest guys ever --- his old-world manners remind me of my own dad. Gee, if anyone deserves to be here, it is he. Mig 13:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Molnar deleted until further information is available. Please, assist. Mig 16:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Ramon Rodriguez Torres has no coroborating information on him. Until further notice, his name was deleted.Mig 12:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, despite the fact that talent is a subjective issue, I had added their names: Leon Ichaso, Camilo Vila, Orlando Jimenes Leal and Orestes Matacena. Ther are filmmakers with accomplishments. Why were their names removed? Mig 13:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs)

It appears Ichaso was added incorrectly by one of his friends. He was not linked properly and was not alphabetical. I have deleted it until I'm able to take care of it properly Mig 20:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs)

I'm shocked at how many people spam this page. Names are added with no point of reference. I have deleted Mari Ichaso from the list of journalists because she had no links to anything at all and spammers out there keep bringing her, along with others into this website -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs) 21:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

With respect to Mari Ichaso, who was deleted -- she has NO links to her accomplishments at all. Can someone, please, advice. Mig 12:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to sign and the signature does not show up -- Mig Sept. 10, 2007Mig 03:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I have tried signing several times and the signature never shows up -- Mig —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs) 21:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC) Mig 02:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I guess I couldn't sign from another computer -- so sorry.

Deletion template

Take it off! Badagnani 22:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please -- take it all off Mig 03:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs)

Mercedes de Acosta was deleted from miscellaneous because she's already listed under writers. Mig 07:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Non-Notability and Duplicate Names

Non-notable names should not be added to the list. I have repeatedly removed Maria Arias Rodham from the list because she isn't non-notable because she HASN"T DONE ANYTHING. Marrying the wife of the brother of the former first lady of the USA does NOT make one famous. The person should have a career or life that has been productive and notable by press coverage or by contributions to society. Please stop adding her name. I had a similar dispute with administrators who deleted an article for Waleska Martinez, a passenger aboard of United 93. Although she died on that tragic flight she was considered non-notable and deleted. If Waleska who is more famous than Ms. Arias didnt get an article why should a housewife in Florida (like Ms. Arias) get one? Use common sense here!

Second, names should only appear on the list twice under the category they fit best under. If names were to be repeated all over the list, than not only will it look redundant but also will become unmanageable. Please check if the name is already on the list before deleting it.

Third, families who are multinational such as the Bacardis should not be added to the list. Members of the family are living in Nassau, Bahamas and in Puerto Rico operating businesses with the family name. Many of these members were not born in Cuba nor posses Cuban citizenship or have any ties with Cuba. Don Barcardi was not even born in Cuba as he is a native Catalan from Sitges, Spain.

Fourth, entries on the list should have an article. The screenwriter for the flopped show "Cane" is really non-notable. When clicking on her name, I am automatically directed to the article for the series. This only validates my point. Whose next to get an entry? The screenwriter for Gigli or Ishtar? Use common sense.

Fifth, names that do not have any hits after a Google search are really vanity pages. II have deleted entries on this list that are clearly self-serving vanity entries. Make sure that the entry has numerous on-line citations before adding them.

Please discuss your point on this page. Any further attempts to undo the corrective and positive edits I have taken will be addressed to an administrator(s).

Thank you!--XLR8TION (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll begin by asking you to tone down your snarky tone, there's really no need for it. You are not the sole arbitrator of this list as you seem to think. Your petty threats and thinly veiled insults may work with others, but they don't work with me. I work with children, I have a ton of patience, dear. :) A simple look at your contributions list shows you rarely seek compromise, just undo other people's edits labeling them vandalism and then try to bait them into a fight which you seem to feed off of. If you have a problem with my edits then by all means seek a third opinion from an unbiased administrator, I have no problem with that. You are the one that seems to find consensus impossible. I'm going to continue making edits as I see fit. If you'd like to readdress this issue with a more curtious tone and a more open attitude then I'd be glad to hear from you. Until then. :) InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 04:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Listen dude, I will revert all your uncosntructive edits as long as the sun shines. You are a rogue editor and refuses to listen to reason. Your refusal will only cause you to lose time. Please address the issues I have stated in this section before making changes. If not, your edits will be reversed. --XLR8TION (talk) 02:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It's becoming more and more clear to me that you are incapable of communicating with people without resorting to threats that you have no power initiating. As I've said before, if you'd to address issues you have with my editing I'd be more then glad to, on the condition you approach the situation like an adult and not a spoiled child. Finally, my name is not dude. It's spelled "unconstructive". And it should be "a rogue editor who refuses to listen to reason"; not and.

P.S. It's 8:39 pm on the east coast and the sun stopped shinning, so not what? lol InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 01:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Multiple Entries and Non-Notable names

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Non-notable names should not be added to the list. I have repeatedly removed Maria Arias Rodham from the list because she isn't non-notable because she HASN"T DONE ANYTHING. Marrying the wife of the brother of the former first lady of the USA does NOT make one famous. The person should have a career or life that has been productive and notable by press coverage or by contributions to society. Please stop adding her name. I had a similar dispute with administrators who deleted an article for Waleska Martinez, a passenger aboard of United 93. Although she died on that tragic flight she was considered non-notable and deleted. If Waleska who is more famous than Ms. Arias didnt get an article why should a housewife in Florida (like Ms. Arias) get one? Use common sense here!

This issue was resolved days ago, a simple check on the history list will show that name hasn't appeared on the list in days. Don't know why this editor claims on this date that (s)he's "repeatedly removed" Arias's name from the list? InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Second, names should only appear on the list twice under the category they fit best under. If names were to be repeated all over the list, than not only will it look redundant but also will become unmanageable. Please check if the name is already on the list before deleting it.

This, I disagree with. If someone is equally well known for two things they've done, or two professions they've had then they shouldn't be listed under just one. Desi Arnaz, for example, is one of the most famous Cuban American actors and producers; he shouldn't be regulated to just one section of the list. This is an encyclopedia, people come on Wikipedia to gather information, it would be counterproductive for someone looking to find out names of Cuban American producers to leave Mr. Arnaz's (arguably the most famous Cuban American producer) name off solely because he was already listed under actor. As a compromise, I'd be fine with adding a (See also:) to people who make more then one appearance on the list, as is done in other lists like List of Puerto Ricans. Which, oddly enough, is a page User:XLR8TION frequently edits, yet (s)he has never seemed to have a problem with multiple names on that page. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Third, families who are multinational such as the Bacardis should not be added to the list. Members of the family are living in Nassau, Bahamas and in Puerto Rico operating businesses with the family name. Many of these members were not born in Cuba nor posses Cuban citizenship or have any ties with Cuba. Don Barcardi was not even born in Cuba as he is a native Catalan from Sitges, Spain.

I disagree. If you would read the article I referenced instead of just reverting sight on seen you'll see the Bacardi Family is a Cuban American family and not, as you suggest, multinational. The Bacardi Family is made up of descendants of Don Bacardi, who had all his children in Cuba. So, just to clear it up in case it's not settling in for you, Don Bacardi was born in Spain. He had his children in Cuba. The descendants of Bacardi's Cuban-born children are living in exile in the United States (hence Cuban American). I hope that cleared it up for you. :) InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fourth, entries on the list should have an article. The screenwriter for the flopped show "Cane" is really non-notable. When clicking on her name, I am automatically directed to the article for the series. This only validates my point. Whose next to get an entry? The screenwriter for Gigli or Ishtar? Use common sense.

Again, there's really no need for your snarky comments. Furthermore, you added the name of the director of the Marc Anthony/Jennifer Lopez flick, "El Cantante", which was a tremendous flop. Should his name be removed as well just because his movie had poor reviews and bad box office receipts? InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fifth, names that do not have any hits after a Google search are really vanity pages. II have deleted entries on this list that are clearly self-serving vanity entries. Make sure that the entry has numerous on-line citations before adding them.

This is odd you'd bring that up. Why then, have you been reverting the references I've started to add to the page? InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss your point on this page. Any further attempts to undo the corrective and positive edits I have taken will be addressed to an administrator(s).--XLR8TION (talk) 03:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments I concur. It strengthens the list to use names that the average person could recognize with minimal effort but may or may not have recognized as Cuban American. And a name should never be duplicated. Ever. There's no reason for it. If you find a lot of instances where duplication occurs then maybe the list needs to be restructured. CJ (talk) 11:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion: I believe that the list should include names of people that have their own articles. I find it rather subversive to have Efram Grinberg on the list, only to click on the name and have it redirect me to the Movado article. If Grinberg were notable on his own, he would have his own article. This list should serve as an aggregate of articles, so to that end, each article should be able to stand on its own. Additionally, names should only be on the list once. That's my take. Hope that helps. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 03:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Once again InMySpecialPlace has vandalized the page by adding non-notable names, adding duplicates (John Sununun is listed both under cabinet members and state governments), adding multin-national families such as the Barcardi when I have told him to stop and also deleted confirmed named such as Carolina Garcia Aguilera (writer) from the list. He refuses to listen to reason and I only will continue reverting his unconstructive edits. I would like the assistance of an administrator in not only helping maintain this list but also educating this rogue editor about proper editing styles, techniques, and standards. He apparently is a child who is stubborn and refuses to listen to reason. --XLR8TION (talk) 12:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Can you please stop using words like "vandalized" and "rogue editor"; it's hard to have a discussion with you when all you do is hurl insults at me. This is not about you, I have nothing against you. There's no need to take this so personally. I just disagree with you on how the page is edited. It might help to take a look at Wikipedia's policy on personal attacks as well. Thanks! :) InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 23:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• HelloAnnyong: Thanks for answering my request for comment. I know it's not always easy to get in the middle of one of these edit disputes. lol. I value your opinion, but my take on the matter is that people reading this article are probably not going to skim through all names on the list. What good is it to have a list of famous Cuban Americans, and under the heading of "Producers" not name Desi Arnaz who not only founded Desilu Productions with his wife Lucille Ball, but created the multiple-camera setup production style still used in sitcoms to this day? Well then remove him from the actors list, and put him under producers. That solves the problem, right? Not quite, Arnaz was arguably the most famous Hispanic in television history. After all, who hasn't seen an episode of I Love Lucy? What I'm trying to say is that it's not as simple as saying, you belong here, while you belong over here. Some people are equally well known for more then one profession. Shouldn't the list reflect that? Finally, I don't want to get accusatory, but I find it odd that User:XLR8TION finds it so distressing that there's non-notables and duplicates on this list, when a list he frequently edits [1][2][3] the List of Puerto Ricans is full of redlinks and duplicate name. This seems more like a vendetta against me then an actual content dispute. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Here are some notes to take account in this dispute:

(1) I am not the only editor who edits the List of Puerto Ricans. I work others on that page who lend a hand and since it has an extremley long list of notable persons, I do my best to not have duplicates on that list. Since the List of Cuban Americans is not that long, than a list like this one is more manageable. Duplicates only are redundant. Many people can by hyphenates such as Jennifer Lopez who is an actress, singer, designer, businesswoman, etc.. Doesn't mean she has to appear 5 times or more. Once is enough.

Your wording kinda erks me. You work with "others on that page who lend a hand"; this seems to go to the heart of our current edit disagreement. They're not "lending [you] a hand", they have an equal right to edit and mantain that page just as you do. But I digress, in that particular article the duplicates are clearly marked, the article length is beside the point. Various names in that article have a (See also: With the other section the person appears in bolded as such). So I do find it kind of hard to believe you would have just overlooked that the various times you edited the article. Which again makes me wonder if you really believe there shouldn't be duplicates on the list or if you're just disagreeing to best me.InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(2) Under the the current trade embargo against Cuba, the Bacardi family which is a multinational family with branches of the family in the USA, Puerto Rico and the Bahamas would not be able to operate or do business with the U.S. or any U.S. business. If the company is still operating it's because they do not have any political ties with Cuba, therefore validating that they are multinational. Please do not add them to the list. The Fanjul family deserves to be on this more than them.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. What does the United States trade embargo have to do with the Bacardi family? I think you're confusing the Bacardi corporation (which is a multinational corporation based in the United States and the Bahamas) with the Bacardi family. The trade embargo stops Barcardi rums from doing business in Cuba, which it doesn't. But how does that mean the family is not Cuban-American? The family is composed of descendants of Don Facundo Bacardi y Maso, who came to Cuba from Spain in 1829. After the revolution, they exiled to the United States. And like many Cuban Americans, they have no interest in doing business with communist Cuba. They are Americans of Cuban descent. Hence, List of Cuban Americans. Here are two more articles, in addition to the one already referenced by their name on the article page: from The Independent[4]]and the BBC[5]. You, on the other hand, have provided zero articles to prove your "multinational family" theory. Just rhetoric. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(3) Hillary Clinton's sister is not notable. Please stop adding her. Who is next? The wife of the CEO of Pollo Tropical? Marrying into a family does not make her famous and you validate that by adding a direct link to Hillary Clinton's article. She hasn't done anything of merit to be on this list.

Null point. The name is no longer on the list and as I said the last time you brought it up I stopped adding it a long time ago. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(4) You keep on removing Carolina Garcia Aguileira, a notable Cuban American author. Why? She is confirmed and has written several novels. Why are you vandalizing the list by removing her name?

I've asked you before to stop using personal attacks[6]. And I'll ask you kindly once more to stop referring to my edits as vandalism. I think it would behove you to brush up on Wikipedia's policy on personal attacks. WP:NPA. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

For everything else, please look at my original posting. Steel, please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.--XLR8TION (talk) 03:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

---

--XLR8TION (talk) 03:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinion by Uninvolved

I think that the inclusion criteria that apply to this list apply here.

Regarding Notability: Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content

• Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other guidelines such as those on using reliable sources ...The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines

Aatomic1 (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

A solution

Okay, guys, you both need to calm down. I've asked around for some help on this, and the solution here lies in verifiable sources. Basically, you need to be able to verify with reliable secondary sources all of the people who are potentially non-notable. If you can't do that, then the person can't be listed. I don't care that it's tedious and a pain to find sources for everyone, it's the best solution to solving this problem. It should also be mentioned that just because other articles have issues (like List of Puerto Ricans) doesn't mean that that's correct Wiki policy. Read the talk pages and you'll see that redlinks are generally associated with non-notable people, and the solution is either to generate a stub for that person (that asserts some notability) or to give a source for that person. Either way, the solution is sourcing.

In case you didn't notice, this page was put on lockdown because the two of you keep sniping at each other. You're both being rather uncivil to each other, which can get you in trouble around here. Stop edit warring and try to get something done. You also need to remember that Wiki works by consensus, so be respectful of other people's opinions.

Here's my recommendation from here: add another section to this page with a list of all the potentially non-notable people, and try to find secondary sources for them. If you can't, then they shouldn't be on the list. Wiki isn't a list of everyone ever. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 14:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The new section seems a bit much when what we need here is a clear and rational thinking and not irrational and unconstructive editing. For example, InMySpecialPlace has repeatedly added Sammy Davis Jr. on this list when I have repeatedly taken him out and followed the NPOV stance in his main article. Sammy always claimed he was Puerto Rican in during his life, however he is added here due to a recent unauthorized biography which claims he was really Cuban. InMySpecialPlace continues to refuse to attend to a NPOV and add him to this list. He does not appear on the list of Puerto Ricans, nor should he appear on this list. Rumors and unauthorized bios are not valid sources. Mr. Davis should be off this list.

Anais Nin is another case. Her father moved to Haiti, then Cuba in exile. He claims because the fact the he lived in Cuba that she is Cuban (and Cuban-American). She was neither. She always identified herself as French and never mentioned any Cuban ties in her memoirs or writings. Simply because one lives in a country in exile does that give him that nationality. Jean Betrande Aristide (former president of Haiti) lives in South Africa as an exile. Does that make him South African? NO.

Next, the Bacardi family are multinational. The U.S. trade embargo prevents anyone from doing business with Cuban nationals. The assets of any Cuban national belong to the state. Hence Cuba is a communist country and enemy of the U.S. If they were Cuban they would not be allowed to sell their products in the states. The fact is that many members of that family relocated to the Bahamas and Puerto Rico before and after 1959. They acquired citizenship in those nations in order to run and own their businesses. They don't belong on this list.

Writer Carolina Garcias Aguilera is removed by MyInSpecialPlace always. This is simply vandalism. I have provided a weblink showing her bio and her ties to Cuban-Americans. Why is she being removed. When I removed Ms. Arias-Rodham, InMySpecialPlace said that he added her to the list because HE CONSIDERED HER NOTABLE. Simply because HE thinks she is notable even though she has done nothing of merit is ridiculous.

What needs to be done her is to set rules on valid names that can't be disputed due to a NPOV stance. When Jeff Bezos was added to the list, InMySpecialPlace added him simply because he had a Cuban stepfather. He is not biologically or culturally Cuban. Suzanne Vega (the singer) has a Puerto Rican stepfather. She is not added to the list of Puerto Ricans. Adoption does not make you part of a particular ethnic group. Cultural and blood ties do. Only ignorance would cause someone to thing that way.--XLR8TION (talk) 21:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be for either people who were born in Cuba, or whose biological parents were born in Cuba - and this information needs to be verifiable. Of the ones listed above, the only one I'd contest are the Bacardis. I'd be okay with listing the first Bacardi who started the company in Cuba, and perhaps his (or her?) kids, but that's about it. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 22:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a great compromise, the problem is even sources aren't good enough for XLR8TION. He still reverts them, what he wants is arbitrary control over the contents of the list. I began adding sources to some of the names on the list including the Bacardis before the list was put on lockdown. He still reverted all the sources I added. That said here are secondary sources for all the issues XLR8TION is having with the list.

1. Sammy Davis, Jr. First chapter of Wil Haygood's book published on The New York Times website reads: "My mother was born in San Juan," Sammy Davis, Jr., proclaimed. But it was a lie, and he knew it. She was born in New York City, of Cuban heritage. The Cuban ancestry, in the wake of the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, which saw President John F. Kennedy and Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev battle to a standoff over nuclear arsenals, made Sammy nervous. Anti-Cuban sentiment had swept the land. The Cuban-haters might begin to dislike him, and Sammy was not in the business of losing admirers and fans. So he flipped the Cuban history-telling relatives to keep quiet about it-with made-up Puerto Rican history." XLR8TION claims this book is based on rumor, but Haygood conducted over 250 interviews with family and friends of Davis, including with Davis' own mother before she passed away. This book has been positively reviewed by The Washington Post, The New York Times and Publisher's Weekly among others.[7]

2. Anais Nin. I never once added Anais Nin to this list. Prove it. Show me the diffs.

3. I'll go back to my previous statements. The family is composed of descendants of Don Facundo Bacardi y Maso, who came to Cuba from Spain in 1829. After the revolution, they exiled to the United States. And like many Cuban Americans, they have no interest in doing business with communist Cuba. They are Americans of Cuban descent. Hence, List of Cuban Americans. Here are two more articles, in addition to the one already referenced by their name on the article page: from The Independent[8]]and the BBC[9]. You, on the other hand, have provided zero articles to prove your "multinational family" theory. Just rhetoric. ::4. Enough said, read prior comments. I stopped adding Rodham's name more then a week ago. You've just run out of things to argue about so you keep beating a dead horse over and over.

5. I added Jeff Bezos? Really? The last edit of the list was edited by me and he's not in there. Now you're just pulling stuff out of the sky. Show me ONE diff where I added his name. Just one.

InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay. First off, chill out a bit. You're being uncivil with #2, so calm down. As for #3, this is not the place to list everyone that is of Cuban descent. Under that logic, wouldn't everyone who was a descendant of the people who founded the United States be listed as English-Americans? That's an absurd example, but you get the idea. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 00:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that I'm being uncivil. Trust me, I haven't been a quarter as disrespectful as this user has been to me from the beginning. I haven't once accused him of doing something he didn't (he's done that repeatedly) and I have never once called him a name like a rogue editor or labeled his edits as vandalism (which again he has done to me repeatedly). Frankly, I've showed him more respect then both he has shown me and more respect then he deserves. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 05:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

List Clean-up

I have taken the time to clean-up the list and removed names of individuals who are not verifiable. Entertainers such as Sammy Davis Jr. (who had an unauthorized and unconfirmed bio written on him claiming that he was Cuban) and Fantasia Barrino (family rumors do not make you Cuban; facts only) have been removed. I have also re-added names of several entried that were removed for no apparent reason. Also, names should only appear on the list ONCE to prevent redundancy. I have removed duplicate names and merged their entries to reflect a more more concise and flowing list.

Before adding names to the list, one should first verify if the person in fact is Cuban-American. Anais Nin was remove and will be added to list of Cubans simply because she had no upbringing (or U.S. Citizenship) in the USA. She was born and raised in France. If there is a counterclaim to one's ancestry, than do not add them to the list (e.g. Sammy Davis Jr. claimed he was Puerto Rican when he was alive; unauthorized biograph claims he was Cuban; therefore he should not be included on either lisst of Puerto Ricans and Cubans, allowing reader to use their own judgement to determine which claim in more believable). However, if the person has dual heritage than their inclusion into the list is fine. Please discuss any questions you might have on this list here so that this list can return to being the civilized and verifiable list it once use to be.

• • Anais Nin was a U.S. Citizen see www.who2.com/anaisnin.html.

To recap:

(1) Names should be listed on list ONCE.
(2) Do not add names that can be challenged due to a counterclaim.
(3) Do not add names that do not have verifiable resources. Rumors do not validate a claim.
(4) When added a name, please add a link to the edit summary (as I have done with Ingrid Casares) for verification.
(5) Retain a NPOV when it comes to adding names; no need to andd adjectives that reflect opinion (such as "beautiful") or wealth ("billionaire").
(6) Do not delete names that have been verified.
(7) Do not add names that are extremely non-notable and seem self serving only to the interest of that subject.
(8) Add a short blurb per entry; article will discuss accomplishments or notoriety.
(9) Add only Cubans who were born and raised in the U.S. or have U.S. citizenship. Living in the country for a brief while does not make one American. If I go to Canada and stay there for a week, does that make me Canadian? Use logic here.
(10) Use the "talk page" to dispute any entry or validate an entry's addition if you feel that revert edits will occur as a result of the entry's deletion or inclusion.

--XLR8TION (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• • • Once again, before adding names please take a look at #2 and #3. Rumors nor unauthorized biographies that do not have any endorsement from families or subjects do not count as valid sources. Fantasia said it was "a family rumor" that she MIGHT be Cuban. She has not whipped out a Cuban flag and gone on a junket of interviews saying she is Cuba. Rumors are simply rumors!

I don't necessarily think that one would have to conduct a "junket of interviews" saying they are "Cuba[n]", in order to be Cuban. Unfortunately, it's not always easy for African-Americans to trace their genealogy like other Americans can. The family of Sally Hemmings was "rumored" to be related to Thomas Jefferson for centuries until DNA testing proved that rumor to be accurate. Barrino, wrote about her Cuban heritage in her autobiography, and she self-indentifies as Cuban. I wasn't aware there was some qualifying litmus test. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • Quoting her own words "Family rumor has it that my father's family has Cuban lineage, which would explain my last name – kind of unusual for a black southern man from North Carolina." RUMORS ARE NOT VALID SOURCE OF INFO.[10]

It's an issue of semantics. You'd be right to say that a rumor wouldn't be a valid source of info if it came from a secondary source, but this is a "family rumor" that she herself believes and even included in her autobiography. In that case it is a reputable source because it's coming from Barrino herself. If it was a rumor, from say a gossip blog then it wouldn't considered a reputable source? Do you understand the difference? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sammy Davis Junior did say "in his own words" that he was Puerto Rican. An unauthorized bio printed after claims otherwise! This is a counterclaim and can nix one another. Therefore a NPOV should be taken in this case and the name should not appear on this list or the list of Puerto Ricans.

What's your definition of an "unauthorized" bio? What constitutes an "authorized" bio in your opinion? This biography was written by a Washington Post journalist who conducted interviews with hundreds of people close to Davis, including his own mother. Do you have any envidence that this book isn't a reputable source for information on Mr. Davis? 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Sammy Davis Jr. used to tell a joke: "My mother was born in San Juan. So I'm Puerto Rican, Jewish, colored and married to a white woman. When I move into a neighborhood, people start running four ways at the same time." Once again there is a counterclaim. [11]

Sigh. I noticed you avoided answering the question again. Instead you offered a joke as a counterclaim? I'm confused as to how you could think a joke is a reputable source and a biographer who conducted 200+ interviews is not? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Now take a look at #8. Adding a two line blurb for a en entry takes up two much space on this list. The entry's article will discuss their accomplishments. Simply add a small desfription and even one of their works (film, television, book, etc.) that will give the person who takes a look at this page a "brief" summary of who that is person. Milestones and other accomplishments will appear in the article.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. The "blurb" is as breif as possible while still highlighting an achievement that is notable. Being the first Hispanic anything is worth mentioning. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • A list is simply a list, not a biography. Keep the blurb short. ONCE AGAIN, the article will discuss the subject in detail.

ONCE AGAIN, you are not the arbitrator of this list so please stop ordering me around because you do not own this article.

Finally, regarding Bacardi family, that family is multinational, holding many diferent national passports. Just like the Braganzas (Portuguese & Brazilian), the Borbons (French & Spanish), and the Bronfmans (U.S. and Canadian), they like the Bacardi family are an international families. A counterclaim on this fact can nix their entry on this list.

You're not offering any new arguments here. We're just going to keep going back and forth on this until you can offer any facts to support your claim that they're a "mulitnational family". You keep going back to that and never answering any of my questions. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The founder of the company was born in Sitges, Spain. He moved to Cuba, however many of his family members also emigrated to the Bahamas, the U.S. and Puerto Rico and established firms there. Bacardi rum in Puerto Rico is listed as "PUERTO RICAN RUM". It doesn't say "CUBAN RUM'. Should they also be added to the List of Puerto Ricans??? Counterclaims nix entry.

First off the family didn't move out of Cuba until after the revolution. Prior to that they had been in Cuba for decades. They emigrated to the United States, hence their inclusion in a list of Cuban Americans. Secondly they didn't establish a "firm" in Puerto Rico, they established a distillery to make it easier to do business with the mainland United States. But I don't really see how this is relevant ... the issue here is the Bacardi family not the Bacardi Corporation. I think you keep confusing the two as one entity. So again, I'll ask you a simple question ... do you have proof to support your claim that the Bacardi family is not Cuban-American? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss your views here before making unconstructive edits. Discussion is the key to civilized debate. --XLR8TION (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Once again, using logic here. I have provided two sources (Barrino and Davis). Show me your sources or else they remain off list! Rumors and unauthorized bios are not valid sources.--XLR8TION (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See unfortunately that's the problem here. You see this as a "debate". It shouldn't be a debate. It should be a discussion trying to reach consensus. It seems like you just argue for the sake of arguing. 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to throw in my $.02 worth here, as I was asked to review this by User:XLR8TION. You both make good arguments, however, as with EVERY article on Wikipedia, there needs to be some sort of reliable source to verify the information being entered is true. Wildthing61476 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish that would be suffecient enough (scroll up and you'll see I've included references to support my arguments in previous posts) but unfortunately he continues to revert even when I add references. 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Eamon de Valera

• There is no solid fact that Eamon de Valera's father was Cuban. A baptismal certificate simply is not sufficient enough to challenge a counterclaim that he was a Spanish national. One has to remember Cuba was part of the Spanish dominion until 1898. A simple baptism in a place does not give that child nationality.--XLR8TION (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying those born in Cuba before the Spanish-American War were not Cuban? 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)