Talk:Golden Path (Dune)

I am the writer of the article on the Golden Path, and release the information to GFDL. Etcetera, etcetera.

Daniel Holliday

Possible Futures

Reading through this article, i find one flaw, isnt it possible that the Golden Path could have been the path to rid humanity from its own destructions? After all, when all the melange ran out on Arrakis, the society would have collapsed on itself. By creating a tyranny with all the spice in his control, and then creating the scattering, Leto forever demolished the necessity of melange. Without it, humanity would have crumbled from its own troubles

Very much how people view todays rising gas prices and the possibiliy of no more petroleum to put an end to travel, melange would have had the same effect in the world of Dune and would have cast humanity into a long isolationism where they would have to revert back to the old way of travel that would take months to go from planet to planet

i believe it should be stated that this is one of the theories of the destruction of humanity instead of simply hinted in the rest of the article

- the spice is a product of the sandworm life cycle, so long as the worms survived the spice wouldn't run out.

I am a bit skeptical about the second and thrid "hybrids" mentioned. Firstly I think the Bene Gesserit "remit" to meddle in the power structures of the universe comes from the awakening of their past memories in the spice agony. It is the intimate knowledge of all the atrocities of the past that makes them realise that they must prevent them from ever happening again. Therefore I question the value of having an Atredies in charge, as even an Honored Matre becomes a loyal Bene Gesserit after having their memories awakened...

Secondly I didn't think the Honored Matres origins were made specific. I would point to the fact that the Bene Gesserit sent missions into the scattering along with everyone else and that the BG suspected that the Honoured Matres were renegades from these missions driven to extreeme measures by whatever they encountered "out there". It could be that the fish speakers and BG combine but I don't think that the Honoured Matres method of imprinting can be explained without BG origins.

More than two Kwisatz Haderach

" ... becoming the second and final Kwisatz Haderach"

The Tleilaxu at some point admitted to breeding (growing?) their own Kwisatz Haderach. I'm sorry I cannot remember which book or where this reference is; as I'm about to read the whole series again I will repost when I find it, but hopefully someone else will know where this reference is.

(This would be, chapter 3 of Dune Messiah.)

This article is so convoluted.

It is sad, because this article could very well be on the Main Page one day. However, it is full of so much redundant ranting that it will have to be totally rewritten if it is to organically grow to something that:

• A) is interesting to ... anyone, not just the fans who enjoy ranting into the typing prompt their endless theories as to this or that nuance of Herbert's books
• B) actually captures the full meaning of Herbert's ideas behind the Golden Path, and doesn't COP OUT (like, when the article says 'when Paul refuses to make the sacrifice which Leto later does' Uhh... you have to describe the 'sacrifice,' not just mysteriously allude to it).

Example one:

"The the Fremen on the universe spreading their genes across it; and saw to it that a son and daughter would survive him. But he was not willing to make the sacrifice that his son Leto II chose to make."

I believe this to be approximately true but it doesn't explain anything and so I am removing it until questions are answered:

• 1. How precisely did the Fremen jihad connect to salvaging humanity from stagnation?
  2. What was the sacrifice Paul did not make?
  3. Why would Paul purposely not make the sacrifice, but then make sure he would be survived (by Leto II and Ghanima)?

Remember that these were all in Herbert's mind and perhaps there are several questions he himself did not know the answers to. Also as the series evolved it might have been difficult to maintain absolute consistency..

The sacrifice Paul did not make the sandtrout metamorphosis: he refused to lose his humanity. This is pretty clearly laid out in DM, CoD, and especially GEoD. As for #3, he didn't. Remember, in his visions, he did not foresee Leto II. Some other oracle was using him/forcing Leto II into existence (read the appendices of Dune - Herbert had one sentence which went "to use power is to make oneself infinitely vulnerable to greater powers", for example). I've often thought that Leto II overruled Paul's original vision back on Caladan, but that's totally my own impression and definitely OR. --Gwern (contribs) 00:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments in general. However, the statement, "...his father's reluctance and eventual refusal to embark down the Golden Path and rescue humanity from certain extinction," where "his father" is Paul, is a false statement. Paul never saw the Golden Path. However, this error seems to be consistent in all of the Dune articles. This article needs to focus more on the Scattering and the Golden Path itself, and less on discussions of vague "hybrids" that the books never actually confirmed were the shape of the Golden Path.

I think he did see the golden path, but opposed it; a cursory search of GEoD turns up the following quotations: "Even my father is not content. I have done what he feared to do and now his shade must share in the consequences....The Golden Path demands it. And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility."

More indirectly, "You know the myth of the Great Spice Hoard? Yes, I know about that story, too. A majordomo brought it to me one day to amuse me. The story says there is a hoard of melange, a gigantic hoard, big as a great mountain. The hoard is concealed in the depths of a distant planet. It is not Arrakis, that planet. It is not Dune. The spice was hidden there long ago, even before the First Empire and the Spacing Guild. The story says Paul Muad'Dib went there and lives yet beside the hoard, kept alive by it, waiting. The majordomo did not understand why the story disturbed me." --Gwern (contribs) 00:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

At the end of Children of Dune:

"'I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. 'I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?'

'It's that or humans will be extinguished.'

Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. 'I did not see that among the choices.'"

That seems to directly prove that Paul never saw the Golden Path, or at least, the consequences of not following it. --Anon.

I agree with the latter; he saw the "short-term" effects but not the purpose: that is why Leto feared the story of Paul's survival, because Paul could have contended with Leto's oracular vision. But he did see the Golden Path. --Gwern (contribs) 02:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the article insinuates that Paul saw all of the consequences, and rejects the Golden Path anyway. In the end, Paul accepts it. "Once I opposed him, but now I do his bidding. He is the Healer." Paul didn't see the Golden Path as the Golden Path, but rather, as the worst of all possible futures. The article essentially condemns him for choosing against the Golden Path, when he really helped to start it with his Jihad, and worked for it when he finally understood it. The article inaccurately states that Paul saw the extinction of humanity, and refused to do anything about it.

It does? In that case, it needs to be fixed. Even Paul was not selfish enough to let all humanity die simply so he could retain his own. --Gwern (contribs) 03:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

From the quotes above, it does seem that Paul does recognize the Golden Path, and what needs to be done in order to achieve it (lose his humanity) However it might be that Paul doesn't see that the Typhoon Struggle will be the end destination of the Golden Path and that it was humanity's survival was at stake. His vision of the Golden Path probably focused on freedom from the Oracle, as that was what he lamented about the most in Dune Messiah. He loathed being an Oracle and the fact that he was imprisoned by his visions. Paul recognized when he felt Leto's sandtrout skin that he made the choice that he would not.

Thankyou

It's not often people can put good comments about articles on wikipedia, but I think this one deserves to be on the frontpage someday. It encompasses the whole meaning of the golden path on a deeper level that I could have ever explained it, not to mention being fantastically philosophical, which usually detracts from a subject, but with this one was absolutely necessary. Its brilliant to be able to re read the books with a greater understanding. So thankyou.

Agreed! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.67.53.71 (talk) 10:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

I also agree. this is one of the best articles about Dune novel series I have ver read.Isatay 15:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"tleilaxu artificial spice"

This needs to be removed from this article (and all articles about the original six books) as it is simply inaccurate. This is (unfortunately) a product of the "new canon" that KJA has put out. NOWHERE in any of the books is the term "artificial spice" used. Nor is "amal" or "ajidimal" or "synthetic spice" or any other such nonsense. The BT were making actual melange in the axlotl tanks and is always referred to as "spice" or "melange"--the terms "synthetic" or "artificial" are never used.. Tleilax Master B 19:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Mistaken attribution

More than that, their people who were sent out into the Scattering also invented and created, and the results of that were shown in Chapterhouse: Dune — super Face Dancers, Futars, and Honored Matre Obliterators.

As the article notes later on, the super Face Dancers and Futars were not created by those sent out in the Scattering, but instead by the Thinking Machines. In fact, the Bene Tleilax who did not got out into the Scattering later noted how backwards their returned brothers appeared to be. I'm not saying that there weren't inventions created in the Scattering (sadly, my memory is failing me as to examples of those) but the ones used here are not applicable.

As for the Obliterators used by the Honoured Matres, I can't remember if they were really invented by the Honoured Matres or stolen from the Thinking Machines. 70.52.84.40 00:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: In Chapterhouse Dune, Frank Herbert implies that that these things were ultimately created by those who fled; the statements should obviously remain but backed up with quotes from the text. However, the idea that the thinking machines spawned the Face Dancers, Futars and Obliterators is an "invention" of the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson sequels, and should be noted as such. I believe the first appearance of the "Lost Tleilaxu" is also in the post-Herbert Hunters of Dune. — TAnthony^Talk 01:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

TAnthony, the first appearance of the "Lost Tleilaxu" (referred to as the Lost Ones or Malik brothers) occurs in Heretics of Dune.

"He did not fully trust the returned Tleilaxu descendants, either. Their accents were strange, their manners even stranger and their observances of the rituals questionable. How could they be readmitted to the Great Kehl? What possible rite of ghufran could cleanse them after all these centuries? It was beyond belief that they had kept the Tleilaxu secret down the generations. They were no longer malik-brothers and yet they were the only source of information the Tleilaxu possessed about these returning Lost Ones. And the revelations they had brought! Revelations that had been incorporated in the Duncan Idaho gholas -- that was worth all of the risks of contamination by powindah evil." Tleilax Master B 14:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This is great, thanks -- I guess BH/KJA just invented the phrase "Lost Tleilaxu"? In any case, the Lost Tleilaxu article currently reads like they were not created by Frank; I will try a slight update of that article later today, and of course would appreciate your help later with further info from Heretics and Chapterhouse. If I recall, you're the resident Tleilaxu expert, LOL. — TAnthony^Talk 17:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"TAnthony, the first appearance of the "Lost Tleilaxu" (referred to as the Lost Ones or Malik brothers) occurs in Heretics of Dune."

I don't think that's quite right. "Lost Ones" occurs all over the place, and is clearly used to denote all the varied peoples returning from the Scattering. I thought we settled a long time ago that the creators of the Futars and Obliterators was an empire of super Face Dancers... --Gwern (contribs) 23:32 14 November 2007 (GMT)

Gwern the term the "Lost Ones" was a term used to denote anyone returning from the scattering. The BT are using it in the context of the returned Tleilaxu from the Scattering. My point is that the term "Lost Tleilaxu" was never used by Frank in HoD, however BT descendants from the Scattering did return in Heretics--before Hunters. Only the terms "Lost Ones", “Tleilaxu descendants” and that they are "no longer malik-brothers" are used in the originals. The term “Lost Tleilaxu” is a new canon creation.

While I personally completely agree with you that the Futars (not necessarily so on the Obliterators, the “secret weapon” may have been the bloodless weapon that is never further explored in the new canon) were likely made by the SFDs (note: that is a term that we fans just made up), there is unfortunately no verifiable evidence or quote to say that definitively. That's why Pinky and the Brain jumped on it and made it the stupid machines instead. You just can't say definitively that face dancers made Futars. The only real evidence we have that Handlers may be face dancers, and thus created Futars was this conversation:

"You only mentioned Futars. Who are these Handlers? And what is this about a secret weapon?" "I reserved mention of them. They appear to be human within variables noted from the Scattering: three men and a woman. As to the weapon, they would not say more." "Appear to be human?" "There you have it, Mother Superior. I had the odd first impression they were Face Dancers. None of the criteria applied. Pheromones negative. Gestures, expressions -- everything negative." "Just that first impression?" "I cannot explain it."

That is unfortunately not definitive; just a hunch by the BG. Tleilax Master B 22:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well come on - at that point in the books, a BG hunch is as good as FH telling us flatout. Let's consider: we know that Daniel & Marty are both face dancers of an advanced sort; we know that Duncan identifies them with the advanced empire with all sorts of neat technology, such as the obliterators the HMs stole; we know that they warred against the HMs, pushing them back to the old empire; further, the Handlers have an in depth knowledge of the weapons stolen from the advanced empire as evidenced by their knowledge of the single-use limit, which only the original users and HMs would know, for obvious reasons - as they are the enemies of the HMs and the advanced empire is also an enemy of the HMs, the only palatable conclusion is that Handlers = face dancers & agents of the advanced empire. Nothing else makes sense - any alternative explanation would have to come up with some *third* power warring against the HMs which is also very familiar with the empire's weaponry. --Gwern (contribs) 20:34 15 December 2007 (GMT)

I think you have to be careful, though, not to overstep what Frank Herbert wrote and assume that every secret to the series can be definitively figured out from the six books he wrote. Whatever you may think of BH/KJA's novels, it's almost beyond doubt that Frank Herbert did intend to write a seventh Dune book, and I think it's presumptuous to assume that the seventh book would have introduced no information or revelations that would have helped decide these questions. While Chapterhouse and Heretics do suggest the "Super Face Dancers" idea, it should not be treated as proven beyond a doubt. Fans have always wanted to seek definitive answers, and perhaps that's even more true now that so many fans seem to have taken almost a personal offense to the BH/KJA books. But we shouldn't let a desire to repudiate the BH/KJA books motivate us to draw unwarranted conclusions from the six FH books. The passage quoted from God Emperor in the footnote to the article indicate that FH intended machines to be involved in some way, and the fact that he spoke with his son about collaborating on Butlerian Jihad books could suggest that he was contemplating the BJ being important to the conclusion to the saga. Now, I think it's highly unlikely that BH/KJA's B-movie cyborgs match precisely with FH's intentions, but "they're obviously face dancers" is not a NPOV statement.

The best route is the one that has been taken with a number of Dune articles -- two sections, one describing what can be found in FH's writings, and one describing what can be found in BH/KJA's writings, with no NPOV comments about canon or whether one is right and the other is wrong.