Talk:Kingston University: Difference between revisions

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is this what David Martland was on about in lecture ? Does anyone really know, cause i am just as lost when i leave that lecture as when i went in...

Yes it is what I mentioned in the lecture, and I'm glad to see that you have found out how to edit the text.

I'd be grateful if you (or whoever) could restrain yourself/ves from putting the graffiti on the Kingston page, but otherwise I'm glad you have managed to get it to work.

You may have noticed other things about this work - such as the list of Recent changes, and the notion of watchlist - these are quite powerful.

Enjoy your week DaveM

I'm not keen on the article at all as it stands, the list of courses needs to go, but I've got nothing right now to replace it with. If I get some time I'll do some research and see if I can find something more substantial and more informative to bring it more in line with other University articles, but if other people are at a loose end, this could be a nice project... --Lawlore 02:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've tried to sort out this page and give it a better layout. I don't have time to pull together enough information for all the sections, so I've made them stubs that other people are more than welcome to add to! Jonks 15:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

University ratings

(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities.)

There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings. Timrollpickering 23:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

Given the sheer number of reverts on both sides, I have had to protect this article. Given that I had to create the first discussion on this matter, it does not bode well. Please discuss the problems here and come to a consensus. I removed those statements that were not sourced because they breach the WP:BLP policy as well as being potentially libelous. Discuss it please. Woody (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would cautiously endorse the protected version. The removed material is potentially libellous; the sources supplied for the material [1] [2] are obviously POV-pushing. A brief search turned up no relevant press reports. — mholland (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Documents don't lie. The sites referred to above show all sorts of examples of supporting evidence to back up the information that was removed. Included in the why-diana.org site are links to press reports in the Guardian and Times Higher Education Supplement, among others. The www.sirpeterscott.com site includes reports in Indymedia.org as well as copies of court documents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.51.176 (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then provide a sample here then. The direct links themselves need to be included and it needs to be vociferously cited. It is best to try it out here. As it is, it is libelous to accuse them without any sources. Woody (talk) 21:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: comments in removed version regarding Diana Winstanley are referenced in the following links referred to on why-diana.org:

Court document supporting comments regarding criminal charges against Donald Beaton is referenced at: http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/beatonsummons.jpg

Numerous other documents provided on www.sirpeterscott.com to support factual reporting in Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.51.176 (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian, which is a reliable source, says "According to reports of the inquest into her death, Prof Winstanley had been suffering from stress at work." I would accept the statement:"Following her experience with workplace-related stress, Professor Diana Winstanley committed suicide in July 2006." being readded into the article. The other comments have not been backed up by sources as of yet. Woody (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Witness intimidation

I have removed the reference to the "witness intimidation" and "employment tribunal" sections. The latest source for this data is an apparently autobiographical posting to a site that anybody can post news to, so apparently little more than a blog by the very person this incident is all about. I have nothing to do with Kingston, and therefore have no worries about their reputation, but judging from the information that has been posted here, the employment tribunal found for the University, the Crown Prosecution Service found for the University, and the ongoing case has yet to be decided and has failed to interest anybody in the media except the plaintiff himself. The postings here come close to breaching the Wikipedia rules against autobiography, have little notability (person takes University to court and loses is hardly news), and are all based on self-penned sources that are certainly not from a neutral point of view. Even the legal document is carefully edited so that the names of those involved, except for those against whom the action is taken, have been deleted. If the University loses the case and this is published in neutral media (as I'm sure it would be), then this could be added to the Wikipedia article. At the moment, however, I don't think it should be here. ThomasL (talk) 18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I had edited down the section from the original diatribe whilst I was looking for sources. As it is , the information was in breach of our WP:BLP criteria which is a very important polcy. Until the information can be sourced to a reliable source, ie not blogs, it should not be re-added. More to the point, it has little relevance to the University until the University is found guilty in an employment tribunal. Woody (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The employment tribunal case is ongoing -- no finding has been made...YET. Vera Baird, MP, QC has found that the CPS was wrong to drop charges because it is illegal to intimidate witnesses to an Employment Tribunal. Victims to crimes, as listed in the summons, have had their names removed to protect their status as victims. The way the entry is written is now clearly from a neutral point of view (Thanks, Woody for your assistance in editing it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.51.176 (talk) 00:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but it still breaches the WP:BLP policy which is a non-negotiable policy. It is clearly intended to disparage its subject without evidence. No charges have been brought and as such, it has no relevance here. It is also not sourced properly, it is sourced to a blog, which is not verifiable. I am removing it again, if it is re-added I will have to request a block. Woody (talk) 00:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence is a court indictment/summons. Source is public record available through any request to the court. I have no connection to the subjects of this article except that I have read the court documents myself, having requested copies of all documents. The evidence is compelling and the Magistrates' court would not have charged the defendant if there was not a prima facie case. Also, There is a documented source -- a letter from Ms Baird, that is publically available online at the website www.sirpeterscott.com. Do you dispute the veracity/authenticity of this letter, which is signed by Ms Baird? You yourself quite fairly edited the text earlier today and found no problem with it. Why did you suddenly do a 180 degree turnaround? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.51.176 (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I edited it whilst looking into the substance and looking for sources. In retrospect I should have removed it completely, but I didn't. The accusation is still unproven, it is still an accusation. I could accuse someone and file court papers, it does not make them accurate. This has little to do with the University in any case, it is related to the individual in question. There aren't any verifiable, third party sources available. The information has to go. Woody (talk) 00:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The third part sources include a letter from Vera Baird, QC, MP. Who is more reliable than the solicitor general of the UK on such matters? The evidence itself is available online -- letters from Donald Beaton to the victims are on www.sirpeterscott.com. Are you saying that this is not sufficient to constitute a verifiable source? We are talking about the words of the defendant here in black and white. The article does NOT state that the accusations have been proven, however -- it merely says that the allegations were made and that a court found substance to issue an indictment, with a further finding by the Solicitor General. These are facts. The information is highly relevant, as this is a matter of high public interest. There are many examples of entries on Wikipedia where allegations are referred to, even when a case has been decided in favour of the accused. One such example is the entry for Michael Jackson [3]. Clearly the case of Kingston University and accusations of witness intimidation have far more credible substance than those lodged against Michael Jackson. This is why I disagree with your decision to remove the information. I would like to avoid a formal appeal, and would hope that your earlier balanced and neutral edits would be a fair and reasonable compromise solution to our disagreement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.51.176 (talk) 00:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sirpeterscott is an advocacy organisation that is in a vendetta against the University. It is not an impartial source. I repeat that this is not the right place for this as well. An article on the case would be the right place for it, but as there are no reliable sources, it would be deleted. The WP:BLP state that: Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles. It is poorly sourced. Woody (talk) 01:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your statement that sirpeterscott is in "a vendetta" against the University. It appears to me to be posting neutral factual information, primarily documentary evidence, to be interpreted as the reader sees fit. I disagree that the entry is poorly sourced. Furthermore, I offer the following additional source of information/reference for consideration, consisting of court documents and case law references [4]. Please restore the entry or I will have no choice but to launch a formal request for third party mediation or other similar method of resolution. 87.194.51.176 (talk

@@ Line 61: / Line 61: @@
 The third part sources include a letter from Vera Baird, QC, MP.  Who is more reliable than the solicitor general of the UK on such matters?  The evidence itself is available online -- letters from Donald Beaton to the victims are on www.sirpeterscott.com.  Are you saying that this is not sufficient to constitute a verifiable source?  We are talking about the words of the defendant here in black and white.  The article does NOT state that the accusations have been proven, however -- it merely says that the allegations were made and that a court found substance to issue an indictment, with a further finding by the Solicitor General.  These are facts.  The information is highly relevant, as this is a matter of high public interest.  There are many examples of entries on Wikipedia where allegations are referred to, even when a case has been decided in favour of the accused.  One such example is the entry for Michael Jackson [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson].  Clearly the case of Kingston University and accusations of witness intimidation have far more credible substance than those lodged against Michael Jackson.  This is why I disagree with your decision to remove the information.  I would like to avoid a formal appeal, and would hope that your earlier balanced and neutral edits would be a fair and reasonable compromise solution to our disagreement.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.194.51.176|87.194.51.176]] ([[User talk:87.194.51.176|talk]]) 00:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
 :Yes, sirpeterscott is an advocacy organisation that is in a vendetta against the University. It is not an impartial source. I repeat that this is not the right place for this as well. An article on the case would be the right place for it, but as there are no reliable sources, it would be deleted. The [[WP:BLP]] state that: ''Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles''. It is poorly sourced. [[User:Woody|Woody]] ([[User talk:Woody|talk]]) 01:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
+I disagree with your statement that sirpeterscott is in "a vendetta" against the University.  It appears to me to be posting neutral factual information, primarily documentary evidence, to be interpreted as the reader sees fit.  I disagree that the entry is poorly sourced.  Furthermore, I offer the following additional source of information/reference for consideration, consisting of court documents and case law references  [http://www.freedomtocare.org/Contempt%20of%20Court%20Docs.rtf].  Please restore the entry or I will have no choice but to launch a formal request for third party mediation or other similar method of resolution. [[Special:Contributions/87.194.51.176|87.194.51.176]] ([[User talk:87.194.51.176|talk]]