Talk:Upstate New York

Upstate Election Results

This article previously stated that President Bush managed to win Upstate New York. Upon reviewing the election results I discovered this to be incorrect.

Subtracting the five counties of New York City (Bronx, Kings, New York, Queens and Richmond) from the vote total leaves Senator Kerry with 2,486,265 votes to 2,375,033 for President Bush. Going further and subtracting Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk counties) as well as Rockland county and Westchester country leaves Senator Kerry with 1,553,246 votes to 1,551,971 votes for President Bush. A margin of 1,275 votes.

If you double check the results from my source you will find this to be the case. Remember that you need to include the vote totals from the Conservative Party for Bush and the Working Families Party for Kerry because of New York State's Electoral fusion laws.

Source: http://www.elections.state.ny.us/elections/2004/president04.pdf from The NYS Board of Elections, Election results

--Tchaika 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Map

Although the article correctly points out that Westchester is not considered to be Upstate, the map contradicts this. Nelson Ricardo 04:52, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

• I changed the image to reflect this... the change is not registering yet...--Pharos 23:03, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Wow, that took a long time.--Pharos 06:29, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Made Rockland change

Outside of --> North Of

Pharos; your changes reverted my change that changed "outside of NYC" to "north of NYC". To say "outside the core of NYC" would falsely include parts of Long Island as Upstate New York. Chances are that was a mistake, but in any case I'm explaining myself as per Wikipedia policy. --Bletch 17:07, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• I did not revert your change, I put in something different. Long Island is part of the core of the New York metropolitan area (ie the Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area) as defined by the US Census, as is Westchester. There's a big diff between NYC and metro area. But I also think it helps to say 'core' in the first, defining sentence instead of the more precise PMSA, to allow differing opinions under the same general concept--Pharos 17:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Thats the first time I've heard all of LI (including Suffolk county) considered to be part of the core of the New York metropolitan area. Fair enough. Perhaps you would not object if I inserted the word 'mainland' in there? It is less ambiguous, and at worst just redundant. --Bletch 18:44, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't think so; even the Bronx is on the mainland.
      • Yes, but the Bronx is very clearly in the core of the NY metro area. So is Westchester. --Bletch 18:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • My point exactly: what does "mainland" have to do with upstate? It's not like downstate is the Free City of Tri-Insula...--Pharos 19:02, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • The point is saying "mainland outside the core NYC metro area" is less ambiguous than "outside the core NYC metro area". There is no possibility that inserting the word "mainland" in that phrase can possible cause the Bronx to be included. --Bletch 19:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
            • The 'standard' definition of Upstate in this article is clearly defined; there's a map with the counties highlighted, and the first sentence in the extended definition paragraph below clearly(I hope?) says it to be "the whole of the state besides New York City, Long Island, and Westchester County". The whole point of the single, introductory sentence at the top of the page is that it broadly defines Upstate in a socioeconomic context in a way that everyone (just about) can agree on, yes, even the occasional odd Manhattanite who thinks Long Island is upstate. And I don't see how it helps to call something 'mainland' as opposed to something that is part mainland, part island. It's like saying there's mainland North America, and then there's Alaska.--Pharos 19:38, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
              • Grouping Orange and Rockland together as questionable , while implying that Putnam is unquestionably upstate is wrong. Putnam (and Rockland as well) is a part of the New York, NY MSA, while Orange is a part of the Newburgh MSA. In addition, Rockland is just as core as Westchester north of Yonkers, so I'm making a change there to include it.

The TZ Bridge is a major psychological barrier, ..I'd say Rockland is as far flung for NYC residents as Westchester past I-287

Three Common Definitions of Upstate New York

In my experience, there are at least three definitions that are commonly used for Upstate New York:

• any part of New York State north of the Bronx (this view is held by many NYC residents, not just "provincial Brooklynites"),
• the above plus Westchester County and Rockland County,
• any part of New York State south of the New York-Pennsylvania state line (this view is held by many New Yorkers living north of that line.)

--ThorstenNY 06:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

• • I grew up in the northern Adirondacks. We considered everything south of Albany to be "Downstate New York". MK2 16:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

• • I grew up in lower Westchester Co in the 1970's and early 80's. Back then I remember people there considering everything north of Westchester and Rockland counties to be "upstate". But I really feel now that you can't consider Putnam to be "upstate" anymore, and probably not even the lower parts of Orange and Dutchess counties (for Orange I'd say south of a line from Newburgh to Middletown to Pt. Jervis, for Dutchess anything south of Poughkeepsie) as most of the people who live there now are former "downstaters" and commuters looking for more land/cheaper housing. hairymon 02:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• • I am from Northern Dutchess, and I can see the point about how anything south of Poughkeepsie can be considered "Downstate". But I still feel that anything north of Westchester is "Upstate". FiftyOneWicked 22:22, 18 January 2006 (FiftyOneWicked)

• • Having grown up in Long Island, I always felt that upstate was north of Westchester and Rockland counties with the transition occurring somewhere in the middle of those two counties. Putnam and Dutchess counties were just into upstate, Albany and Lake George were upstate, and Plattsburgh was really upstate (almost in Canada for that matter) ;-) In the end, "upstate" will always be somewhat of a subjective description. The definition of upstate means different things to different people. Some use geography, others base it on whether or not a person regularly works in the NYC area, still others view it based on a more rural lifestyle, or weather patterns, or speech patterns. Steggall 13:14, 19 January 2006]]

• • I grew up in the southern Adirondacks. We consider everything south of Albany county to be downstate. Everything west of Madison county is considered western NY. Everything else is upstate NY. Considering it's called up-state, it would be a bit ridiculous to consider everything north of NYC upstate, since the state itself extends much further north from NYC. Irelynx, 7 January 2006

• • I live in Southern Orange County and there are still many farms and forest so I would include Souther Orange County in the Upstate part of the state. Red1530 17:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in Western New York. Using "Upstate" to mean the whole state above NYC is just a term used by arrogant New York City types who don't know any geography outside their own town. -- DEL

I grew up in Western New York too. To me, the term "Upstate New York" was useful mostly for disambiguating, so to speak, New York the city from the rest of the state (except I suppose Long Island, which was usually ignored/forgotten about). For example, a person from Iowa asks, "Where are you from?" Reply, "New York". Iowan, "Ohh, the big city!" Reply, "No, no, Upstate New York." ...being from Western New York, the exact boundary between NYC and Upstate didn't matter. It was somewhere far south of Albany and beyond the Catskills, where things began to get ugly and there were too many highways. Having lived in NYC for a while, and without looking at a map, I might say the Tappen Zee Bridge is about where the boundary is. Course regions that don't have official political boundaries almost never have clear boundaries everyone agrees on. A map could show a fading color gradient instead of a precise boundary. Pfly 17:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• • A good rule of thumb about upstate New York is, it's anywhere that's too far to commute to a job in NYC, and definitely it's anywhere that NYC doesn't rely on for its water supply. If you want to get a good sense of what's where in the state, come to the center for the proper perspective -- that is to say, Syracuse. I grew up in Syracuse, and can assure you that it is not in Western New York, and I don't know anyone anywhere who thinks anything west of Madison County is "western New York." Western New York starts no further east than Rochester, if that. Central NY is a distinct region and is not to be confused with Western NY. For one thing, people say "soda" in CNY (like New Englanders do) and they say "pop" in WNY (like Midwesterners do). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.207.76.107 (talk • contribs) .
    • Yeah, except that "soda/pop" distinction would put Rochester in Central New York, which I don't think anyone does. =) I've always considered Western New York to extend almost to Syracuse. Perhaps Geneva-ish. However, I've noticed that the further west someone lives, the less area is considered "Western New York". For Buffalonians, "WNY" only goes out as far as Orleans/Genesee/Wyoming/Cattaraugus counties. For Rochesterians it might go as far as Cayuga/Tompkins/Tioga. =) Powers 11:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Rochester is pretty much on the border between CNY and WNY. 128.230.239.88 17:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
    • As somebody who spent years on the northern fringe of the state, even more years within the general Albany region, and has had occasional visits to the area around Buffalo, I have to say that this would indeed appear to be a good rule of thumb. NYC has it's own distinct culture which is separate from the rest of the state. Although there are many different subcultures throughout the state, these tend to be far less pronounced than the divide between the NYC area and the rest of the state.

On a completely unrelated note, I've observed that newscasters often have an Albany accent no matter where you go in the country. I find this to be quite strange.72.224.14.144 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Another way of distinguishing between Upstate New York (Central, Western, and the St. Lawrence Regions) and the rest of New York is that we pronounce idea correctly, (I-Dee-a) as opposed to (I-Deer).  :) Truthunmasked 10:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• • According to the NYS DMV (at least when I took driver's ed a couple years ago) there are only three parts to New York; New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. I didn't notice it anywhere on the page, and I know there are different restrictions on newly-liscened drivers depending on where you're driving. I, along with many other Lawn Guylandahs, use this definition as the distinction between 'Upstate' and not upstate (much to the dismay of the residents of the near-upstate counties--Westchester, Rockland, etc. BeauBlumberg 19:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

7,000 students a major college?

I decided to remove the "minimum 7,000 students" from the list of Upstate New York colleges. This is partly because many of the colleges on the list (i.e. RPI, Hamilton College, Colgate University, Skidmore College, Clarkson University, & several listed SUNYs) have less than 7,000 students, and also, I do not believe that a school having at least 7,000 students makes it major or noticeable. Don't change this unless you leave a talk comment. --Jondude11 02:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Buffalo

I removed this text from the article: While Upstate New York may include the Buffalo Metro Area, people from Western New York almost never, refer to themselves as "Upstaters", this is mostly due to the fact that the Buffalo Metro Area is connected to the Greater Toronto Area, and many who live there do not fit the description of the rest of Upstate New York. Because, being from Buffalo, I can say that people from Western New York do refer to themselves as Upstate New York; especially when talking to people from elsewhere in the country. It is true that there are differences among upstate regions, but quite often the main distinction that needs to be made is that being from New York State does not mean being from New York City or having much to do with the city at all. In this sense, it is common to say things like "I'm from New York.. no no, not the city, upstate." This article could certainly use something on the differences between regions and how, for example, Buffalo is fairly closely tied to Toronto. But this sentence seems to be rather saying Western New York isn't really upstate. Pfly 20:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also a new "Economic Czar for Upstate New York" under Elliot Spitzer. Guess where his main office is... Buffalo! -newkai t-c 22:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

CICU map of NYS

Did anyone take a look at this? This is how the Commission on Independent Colleges and Universities categorize the different regions of New York State, would anyone agree with this?

http://www.nycolleges.org/pdfs/06LocatorMap.pdf

Taken from [1][2]

JRodz15 19:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Residents in the yellow call the green area upstate?

I've lived in Rochester, hamburg, and oswego...I have never heard of the adirondacks being called the true upstate... while buffalo calls itself western Ny and syracuse central... everyone still agrees that they are in upstate and it has nothing to do with the adirondacks. Also people in Rochester and suburbs just say they are from upstate... not central not western just upstate... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.71.141.141 (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

I made this map and wrote the caption for it. You seem to have missed this line (italics added for emphasis): "However, residents of the "yellow" and "green" areas often restrict their definition of "Upstate New York" to the "green" region." OFTEN, not always. I differentiate the "green" region from the "yellow" region to call attention to the fact that people in the "yellow" region often prefer to be called Western New York, Central New York, etc., than Upstate New York. Someone who believes that Buffalo is not Upstate NY but rather Western NY probably defines Upstate NY as the portion of the state north of the Capital District. -EJ220 16:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You may be thinking of the North Country. JMyrleFuller (talk) 18:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Golden Horseshoe

From a Canadian standpoint Upstate New York is 'unofficially recognized as part of the Golden Horseshoe'. It might warrant a note on the main page for Upstate New York. Please comment User:Brenont 14:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• References to Upstate New York are all on this page

List of Municipalities in the Golden Horseshoe
User:Brenont 15:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• • In theory I've lived in the Golden Horseshoe almost my entire life, and have never heard the term except on wikipedia. I wouldn't complain about a sentence along the lines of "Some consider Western New York to be a part of the Golden Horseshoe, a region of high population density within Southern Ontario." However, I don't think the term has any meaning to the Western New Yorkers to which it applies, and that the Western New York economy is very different from that of the Canadian part of the horseshoe. If you disagree, be bold and edit it in anyway --Cjs56 15:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I shan't edit in a reference to the Golden Horseshoe as there is no strong case for including parts of New York State in that wiki - there's an ongoing thread on their Discussion page. They do bring up this Canadian govt web page Introduction to the Golden Horseshoe Education Alliance which I feel only reflects the 'academic relations between students throughout the cross-border region' not economic relations and doesn't shed light on a Golden Horseshoe connection.
      User:Brenont 17:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hudson Valley accent?

There's an AFD debate now about the article Hudson Valley English, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hudson Valley English. Im asking the people here whether there really is an accent or dialect unique to the Capital area, and inviting them to vote on the deletion. Squidfryerchef 15:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

3 parts of NY

I think there are 3, not 2 different regions of New York. In relation to NYC, everything else is upstate, but, within upstate itself it is pretty different. I'd consider Western a different region in and of itself respectively. You can talk all you want about how NYC is this and Upstate is that, but when you take Upstate by itself, there are still many areas different from eachother. Buffalo and Rochester are undoubtedly their own region (Western NY), and Syracuse to Albany can be seen as Eastern NY, which includes the Binghamton region. Anyone else notice how Utica has the EXACT same longitude as Philadelphia? 131.125.115.65 (talk) 07:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)