Talk:Theta Nu Epsilon

Verification Method Needed

I suggest that links to authentic documentation must be provided here on the talk page before posting any chapter founded after WWI. There have been too many unofficial and unrecognized groups operating to allow post WWI content to go unchecked.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).

sources

There is not a single source listed. How can anyone believe this shit.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).

source added 129.93.82.151 15:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

additional source added 129.133.124.195 00:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Persistent Problem Poster from Purdue

This article and several others have been vandalized by a problem editor who repeatedly asserts some special significance for the Purdue Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon. These posts have also included an extended and bogus article on the "Order of Skull & Crescent", a Sophomore society at Purdue, some high school in the Midwest, (Illinois ?), extended fantasy postings regarding one Italian family (formerly of the Italian peerage), and other postings of similar quality. In this article, the same poster makes claims regarding some behind the scenes transmission of great and arcane secrets from Skull & Bones at Yale to Purdue. All of these postings had to be deleted in the Summer of 2007. This poster can, naturally, not provide for citations for any of his material, except for internet cites that never support his claims. This poster has not been banned, but perhaps this page needs to be blocked.

If any claims are made in the article about Purdue or Skull & Bones, please disregard them.

• Alpha Nonsense This is a bunch of nonsense promoted by the upstart Alpha chapter of Wesleyan- that wishes to disregard Purdue as the Indiana Alpha when even in their own records lists it as such on their current website. Moreover, there is still a sophmore order of skull and crescent existing today at Purdue if you check the school's website, as well as indicated within your own records still listed on YOUR website. I also never posted anything pertaining to those other topics listed by this person. IP's on a public computer can be used by many different people, and you better be very careful about making false accusations about people. I'm also curious if you will even try to remove the fact that the current Alpha is nothing more than an upstart, with no real proof of knowing anything authentic about Theta Nu Epsilon. Moreover, where is the verifiable proof about Taft and other Presidents being part of your group. You are the one that wishes to inflate TNE into something bigger than it is or ever was. It was never at the level of a senior secret society, nor was it ever a carbon copy chapter of Skull and Bones. Purdue's group saw it for what it was useful for- nothing more than an undergraduate's introduction to how a senior society may function like. TNE was nothing more than an undergraduate prep society to introduce an individual to what a functioning senior society may be like later on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.157.59 (talk) 21:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• Just what I thought, cowardly Alphas trying to remove the fact about credibility issues as proved by user 159.247.3.210

• First, it will be returned because it is the truth, and second stop spreading BS about Purdue's Order of Skull and Crescent. First you say it didn't exist. Now you say, oh yeah it does, but it replaced Purdue's chapter of TNE. Wrong across the board. Purdue stopped allowing secret societies to function publicly during the 90's becuse there was no governing body over them on campus, unlike the greek systenm of fraternities. Moreover, Purdue's Skull and Cresent that you are talking about became an honor society, not a replacement for the TNE chapter. Get lost with your cover up to promote the Alpha's agenda! Your chapter is as illegitimate as they come. I'm going to now test you! You have the TNE engarvings posted on your website, there is words in code on those engravings tell me something about that that would prove to me that you have any real knowledge of the secrets of TNE's society- I'm very curious to here what you have to say!!! You were the ones that were previously behind screeming "hoax hoax" to anything Purdue oriented because it took your chapters thunder away- that is all that it was. There was no hoax about that group. The writer did a pretty good job to assemble available infomation about them that was an excellent starting point for the article. He just confused some hear say with facts- but it was no hoax at all. He also was confused about the order's link to the Lafayette Club in West Lafayette, Indiana- that's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.157.59 (talk) 22:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well' I see you can't answer the challenge proposed above. So, I tell you what I am going to do. First off, in the manner of brother love, since I honestly believe that you are tying to work desperately to keep TNE's idea alive- I don't really care much, nor have the time to waste, with bickering and stupidity. I have made some rephrasing to the page's listing that I believe is object and fair. I think it is honest to say that the current Alpha chapter still has much work to do in order to revive the former image of the group without going so far as to say there is credibility or legitimacy probs. Second, stop being so insecure, no other chapter, not even Indiana alpha is trying or wants to run the current National Organization- relax, it's your gig fellas- you don't have to desperately try to put down Purdue. Take care little devils!

The Alpha Chapter at Wesleyan has all the original documents of the society, including several documents specially executed by the founders to identify their verifiable successors. The Alpha Chapter, being the first and universally recognized founder chapter of the society is not, nor can it be, an upstart. The papers of the last Baird's Manual recognized national of the 1930's and 40's have also been committed to the Alpha Chapter, and that body's president, who was named an Honorary National President by the Alpha Chapter, united those two historical traditions. The Alpha Chapter's position is unquestioned by the Wesleyan community, the Wesleyan administration, and it's duration can be demonstrated through yearbook entries, etc. It is also accepted as such by every known living chapter of the society, both chapters associated in the national and those still independent. The Alpha Chapter has no apologies to make.4.245.242.179 (talk) 03:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The Purdue poster is not serious. One of his cites this Summer, trying to prove that his Purdue Skull & Crescent contained valuable secrets of the American Presidency, was to a letter that just happened to be available on ebay. (What a coincidence, he needs a cite, and there it is on ebay!) Funny also that his great secret of Purdue was from the Hollywood plotline for National Treasure. This person is not some serious, deep researcher who has gone horribly astray, he's some kid fooling around with not much of a sense of humor. Don't feel sorry for him, he knows that his posts are confusing gibberish. he's got nothing to do and is trying to get a rise out of people. Pathetic, really. ----Doesn't he know it's the Girl Scouts with all the alchemical talmudic secrets, and they practice ungodly ceremonies to their interplanetary God in Area 51? That's where the secret society action is.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense

Someone added this: I believe in the Brotherhood of Man, in the Strength of Human Will, the Mystery of Fraternity, the Redemption of All Things by Intelligent Effort and the Message of Truth that has made the Bonds of Theta Nu Epsilon Eternal.

and called it "Credo".

Thsi has nothing to do with Theta Nu Epsilon, is a ridiculous combination of meaningless words, and has nothing to do with the history or desctiption of Theta Nu Epsilon. So it was deleted.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).

• If it has nothing to do with the Society, then I'm sure that's why it can be found in many of the old issues of the Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly. Krusophalax 17:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

• I assume you mean the "Keys", not the "Quarterly." Cite the minutes of a national convention where it was officially adopted. It certainly is not adopted by the national now. There is no so called "Credo" associated with Theta Nu Epsilon. I don't think any members of established legitimate chapters would recognize this chance paragraph as representing anything to do with the society. And, regardless, that bit of doggerel has nothing to do with an article explaining the history of the society because it explains nothing—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.183 (talk • contribs).

• That particular creed was written by Gordon Case - a 1908 graduate of Yale who was a member of Lambda Sigma chapter. He also went on to become an officer of the United National, and he was editor of the Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly. Keep in mind, TNE had several nationals claiming control over the Society at any given time; however, the United National, at the time, was the legitimate body that assumed control after Alpha ceased to function as a governing and chapter granting body in 1907. "Keys" may have been a publication of another major national organization or by Alpha.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Krusophalax (talk • contribs).

• I know who it was written by, I have the original. It was not adopted by any convention. It does not have any official status. It was printed on the back of "The Keys" which was the publication of the United National and was a successor publication to both "The Sophomore of Theta Nu Epsilon" and "The Theta Nu Epsilon Quarterly."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.199 (talk • contribs).

I have asked around and the "Alpha" chapter website is not connected to the real chapter nor does it have the power to grant charters. I am not in the loop of that school but I want to say this is just a big fan of TNE.

Iamcarter (talk) 06:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

More lies from Purdue.

Founding Date

Someone keeps changing the founding date to December 5 from December 11. What is the reason for this change? Nearly all historic documentation points to December 11, including information found on the web. Krusophalax

Look, you don't know what you're talking about with any of this. You keep screwing up the chapter list without understanding what you're doing.

Relax.

Go home.

(Oh, and thanks for adding the box. It looks alright.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.183 (talk • contribs).

"Someone keeps changing the founding date to December 5" Founders Day is December 5th. Everything was finished on the 11th but the day noted as founder's day is the 5th so that should be the founding date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamcarter (talk • contribs) 07:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

x Not to get into the middle of a minor squabble and NOT FORGETTING DISCUSSION OF SOCIETY AFFAIRS but as long as it is out there might as well keep it correct. Dec. 5th is the date for everything in our records and our century old original const.; it is what we have kept to. Maybe 12/11/? was the formation of one of the factional groups? If so I respect that but it would help to clarify and add that in its proper area. We have the original documents that we keep to but it might help to compare notes, and see if these fellows want help if they have a functioning chapter or are starting one. Obviously the fellow knows what one officer is. Good luck- thetanuepsilon at alumnidirector dot com x

THE original papers say December 11, sworn affidavits of the founders prepared decades later say December 11. December 5 was never correct. Let it go. ---Writing from Middletown. 129.133.124.252 (talk) 01:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Here the Purdue poster has tried to fake that he's from Middletown.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The National Organization

Some suggest that the National Organization does not represent all chapters. The truth is that, as far as anyone knows, the National Organization does in fact represent all chapters that exist and that operate under the name Theta Nu Epsilon. Organizations at Berkeley, Hamilton, Rutgers, and Nashville, for example, which clearly were formerly chapters do not operate as chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon. There are several universities that have defunct chapters which still have alumni members, but no undergraduates that actually meet as a chapter, (NYU and Purdue). The organization at Alabama is a closer call, but given the complex situation there, (that I am not going to go into here), they, too, can be said to not be operating under the Theta Nu Epsilon name. Therefore, it would be technically correct to say that ALL active chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are a part of the National Organization. Even so, we are not going to insist on that, and will allow for the sensitivities of others and allow for the possibilities of unknown organizations. However, whatever phrasing is used, the truth of the situation would require that most, if not all, active chapters of Theta Nu Epsilon are a part of the National Organization.

The article as it was previously worded did cover that situation.129.133.124.199 23:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

x Re above debate: Obviously there is disagreement but I don't see the wording as problematic as it is. Several chapters meet and the work under an independent coordinating organization that we call a national organization. We understand we are not the sole group claimants to this position.

As for independents, I am not going to call Alabama, Purdue, Kansas, Nebraska or any group that exists (and there are quite a number) "illegitimate" that use Theta Nu Epsilon. The same thing holds for other groups that do not publicly use the initials but have TNE origin. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. I cannot condemn political activism and attempts at coordinating leadership as wrong but I respect the position of those that oppose it.

It is also a matter of function. We function independently and work with several others that do the same. The nature of Theta Nu Epsilon is as a secret society so there is very little to base characterizations on. I think what is needed is greater cooperation rather than condemnation.

With an equally intense desire we maintain an active interest and strive to foster better understanding. We should keep ever uppermost in our mind the aim of the organization. Just don't ask what the aim is! ;o) - thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com x —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.75.81 (talk) 03:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone notice that here the Purdue poster has tried to fake a return address? What an obvious lie!129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

References

Currently, there aren't any references cited here. (External links != References section), see WP:CITE for further details on how material should be sourced. --Bfigura ^(talk) 06:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• This article is greatly bent according to the taste of Weslyan's current Alpha group- which was not the only Alpha group in TNE's history. For example, Purdue's chapter was directly sanctioned by Yale in 1882 as the "Indiana Alpha"- and alsways functioned independently of the Alpha at Weslyan. This article is just not accurate- and appears to be more of an agenda to support Wesleyan's current upstart. This article needs better references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.117 (talk) 23:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, the Purdue chapter does not exist as a current organization it has been dead since the 1930's. Through June of this year, some person or persons with some sort of senseless Purdue agenda ran through wikipedia creating several fraudlent articles which had to be removed and posting a storm of argumentative rants in the process. (Some of this material is preserved in the history of this article.)

Even the above comments, regarding T.N.E. history, is untrue. Purdue was never an Alpha chapter and the misrepresentations of early summer proved that. No chapter of any kind was ever "sanctioned by Yale", and no chapter could be "sanctioned by Yale", since Theta Nu Epsilon was never directed by anyone at Yale, nor was Theta Nu Epsilon even a Yale society at that time. This bull is just tiresome. Whoever you are, please stop vandalizing this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.203 (talk) 02:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Which references support that claim? I'm not trying to be annoying, but if you're going to claim someone else is lying, you should have evidence to support your own claims. (And given the way the article is, you can't tell which source supports which fact). --Bfigura ^(talk) 02:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Yale chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon was founded in 1903. It could not have 'sanctioned' anything in 1882. This claim by one Purdue person cannot be substantiated, and there were repeated requests that it be substantiated this summer, which was not done. Instead, more ridiculous claims were made, and several articles in wikipedia were compromised and had to be changed or deleted.159.247.3.210 15:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• This statement above is bogus. Purdue's chapter was sanctioned directly from Skull and Bones on that groups 50th anniversary. This is why Purdue's chapter was an independant Alpha that had nothing to do with the first Alpha at Wesleyan. The only resolution that Purdue's group made later on with Wesleyan was to use the Skull and Keys emblem later on. Also, there are many TNE groups that don't believe one bit that Weslyan's current upstart has any credibility what so ever. They have time and again welched on their word, removed talk page discussions, and only care to address talk page writing after their personal agenda of controlling the TNE page is put into question. None of the older TNE groups/alumni that have a legitimate history gives a hoot about TNE's current upstart. What ego you have to think that older and more legit TNE groups would answer up to you punks. It is time for a reality check. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.115 (talk) 21:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• This is correct, Purdue's chapter functioned differently than a typical chapters of TNE. It was created as it's own type of secret society by an association with Skull and Bones on their 50th anniversary,and did serve as a feeder society for upper class groups. Purdue's chapter would later adopt the TNE name and logo with a resolution with the Wesleyan outfit- but in actuality, much like Alabama's Machine, the Indiana Alpha group was only TNE in name and logo only- Purdue's group was far more selective with a tapping tradition that was more closely based on Yale's Skull and Bones. Purdue's group would benifit from its own page titled "The Indiana Alpha of TNE". Wesleyan was simply not the Alpha for all groups carring the TNE name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.114 (talk) 01:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sock puppet!

One society cannot authorize a chapter of another society. Skull & Bones cannot authorize a chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon. You're obviously not familiar with either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.195 (talk) 02:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've reported your use of sock puppets to wikipedia, and I am tracing your webhost at 65.54.154.XXX Have a nice day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.195 (talk) 03:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• You are a fool- and nothing more. The statement above stated that Purdue had its own society that later resolved with Wesleyan to use the TNE name and logo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.109 (talk) 03:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Presumably 'Bfigura', the 65.54.98.xxx, addresses and 'Editing' are all the same person. Can they be banned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.247.3.210 (talk) 16:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Umm... No, they're not. Just because multiple people agree that an article has issues, doesn't make them sockpuppets. Feel free to file a WP:CHECKUSER though. Also, the above IP editors should be aware that unsubstantiated accusations tend to be construed as violations of WP:NPA. --Bfigura ^(talk) 21:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Your hoax posts on Purdue are already known, and Bfigura / Editing / 65.54.98.XXX used multiple identities then. Your sloppy attempts at creating sock puppets are evident just in this section. Please stop. 66.19.34.140 15:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge I've never edited Purdue. Also, please don't make unsubstantiated accusations. --Bfigura ^(talk) 16:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There's only one person who believes in your fantasies, you proved that back in June. Please stop vandalizing these pages. Why don't you attack the Girl Scouts articles instead, and claim that they were founded by Venetian noblemen or that they know the secret contents of Salmon P. Chase's sock drawer? You're either someone with an obtuse sense of humor or you need professional help. You choose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.199 (talk) 02:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Material that is unsourced, if challenged, will be deleted from this article unless sources are forthcoming, within a reasonable period of time. See WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The material has far more source material than most Wikipedia articles. See WP:cite This article is certainly within wikipedia policies. Making threatening comments is unproductive. 159.247.3.210 19:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Administrator "Jossi" does not know what he is doing

The page is locked. Brilliant. Let's see if it's possible to reconstruct the series of events. first, back in July a series of posters from the same IP, 65.54.98.xxx, all start posting fantastic stories about the Purdue chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon. The wild stories that spread across a half-dozen articles are eventually spotted for what they are, and all of that is deleted. (I was happy to ba a part of that, no need to thank me.) A new series of wild purdue-based stories recurrs here in September, again from the same in, 65.54.98.xxx, and also involving the Purdue chapter. No doubt, it's just a stunning coincidence.

The posts above on 21:05, 25 September 2007 01:20, 26 September 2007 are clearly by the same person masquerading as two people and both defend the same silly Yale/Purdue link that never existed.

Naturally, when now-apparently-innocent Bfigura blundered in to defend the wild stories, I assumed that he was another sock puppet.

I tried to call foul about this, but I refuse to create an account here, in part out of sheer protest of the weird social system that is developing in wikipedia. (About which I could go on at length, but won't.)

At this point, quasi-admin Jossi also blunders into the article and instead of looking at the obvious frauds being perpetuated by a crackpot, ends up trying to make some point about references and/or citation.

Let me be clear. First: simply going to the discussion page or making a comment when changing an article that says "See WP:V" or "See WP:Cite" is not a rational or reasonable comment. That is not an argument, that is not a point in a discussion. If you cannot clearly state what your objection is, then you are not being constructive, you are not helping, you are not, really, even saying anything. A lot of people have an idea that writing "See WP:Cite" is some sort of intelligent comment, but it is meaningless. I could delete half of every article at random and then write "See WP:Cite" as a justification, and it would be meaningless.

Second: writing "See WP:Cite" in this instance is particularly meaningless in this instance since this article is about as well cited as most of the articles in wikipedia, and better cited than most. Most of the history is cited to the history of the society found on their own webpage and in articles available online from several university libraries. ---And that covers 80% of this wikipedia article.

Thsi "Jossi" person has seen fit to get this page locked, BUT HAS NOT SHOWN HOW ANY OF THE ARTICLE IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY WIKIPEDIA POLICY. If he, (I assume he), wants to have factual claims deleted if not verified, then his "See WP:V" or "See WP:Cite" claims should be deleted if they cannot be verified. There is no backup he has given for any of his lack of verifiability claims. ---As it stands, I cannot even engage these unreasonable claims of Jossi's, because he does not show any violation of anything.

This is not discussion, this is not reasonable, this is not constructive, I do not know on what grounds this person can even make claims to being an admin. As far as I can tell, he knows nothing about the policies he claims to be enforcing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.199 (talk • contribs)

Sources are needed

The article has been without sources for three months, so I have removed most of the content. We need sources to support all material in WIkipedia articles, and having only primary sources (i.e. the fraternity websites) is not sufficient. Applicable policies: WP:V, WP:NPOV; also see WP:NOTABILITY. Editors wanting to keep the material (which can be found in the article history) should endeavor in supporting the material with proper sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Cutting out info based on "verified" sources?

Thats bullshit. Its a secret society! Just because we don't have Verifiable information on Santa claus, doesnt mean that we dont have an article on him.

I suggest that if you want to do a fact-bulletproofing Exercise, how about you make a section in the article titled "verified facts". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.158.241 (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

There has never been a wikipedia policy of delete everything first and then let things in only when some sort of standard for citation has been met. That's not how things work here, and people who think it does need to re-read the policies they are attempting to enforce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.127.55 (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is being used as part of the agenda of the current Wesleyan Upstart

I am disturbed by Wikipedia's tolerance of allowing the Alpha upstart to control this page. They were behind the rumor of fueling a Purdue hoax which is not true- rumors that had a negative impact on several articles. They also removed fully documented sources that specifically states that they are the 'least secretly acting society' on their campus. Moreover, it is a known fact that they are an upstart. The only agenda that is occuring with this article is coming from Wesleyan's current outfit who is fearful that they are not going to be perceived as the authentic controlling National Organization. They have insecurities about their own legitimacy. That is why they have always had it out irrationally for Purdue who was the "Indiana Alpha". But if this upstart really knew anything about TNE's true history, they would know that they really had nothing to fear about Purdue's group since Purdue's group never acted as a National Organization nor even wanted to. As the previous contributions stated, Purdue's sophmore group was completely unique within TNE- in actuallity, they were their own special sophmore society directly inspired from Yale and just took on the TNE name and logo to make it understood that their secret society was a 'sophmore' secret society. The only sophmore society at the time was TNE- hence the use of the logo and name that was agreed upon by Wesylean's original and true Alpha during the 19th century. Consequenly, Purdue's group was always an Alpha because Wesylan's true Alpha agreed that Purdue TNE was a unique society that should continue to autonomously govern their own group. TNE was never a well unified fraternity under one leadership or even under one specific model. For example, the photo of the group on the page right now is very strange- most groups did not dress in hooded clothing- this is an idiosycracy of that particular chapter. Moreover, Purdue's chapter maintained a strict 15 member group like Skull and Bones, rules that other chapters did not subscribe to and there are also other differences, most notably The Machine which functions in a rather distasteful manner. It is time for the current Wesleyan upstart to stop removing anthing that doesn't support the agenda that their group has in mind- they have their on webpage to do that with. It is also time to get real about TNE's history. The only thing that really unified all the chapters is that they all were to be sophmore secret societies- they all used the logo and TNE name to indicate that, and nothing more. There never was a well unified group controlled by a single Alpha- a fantasy that Wesleyan's curent upstart want to perpetuate. If this is a page about TNE in general, then it should include infomation about all groups using the TNE name and logo. If the current Alpha upstart wants to just include info about Weslyan's Alpha they shoud create their own page labled "Theta Nu Epsilon (Alpha), or I would be more than happy to create a page labled Theta Nu Epsilon (Indiana Alpha), but I am sure that if I did that Wes' group would become hysterical and start crying "hoax" again. I can even verify that Purdue's senior secret society was called the "Lafayette Club" that had a collegiate order of death attached to it.

Purdue alumni never had anything against the current Alpha group and was always surprised that they were so offended by a fuller picture of TNE history. It was only after they became so insecure about their legitimacy and so distructful towards other articles that the current Alpha was viewed so distastefully. Also, Purdue's alumni did not want to be associated with the Wes outfit not out of arrogance, but simply because never in the history of TNE did Purdue share openly the workings of their chapter- as said before- Purdue TNE was a unique society in itself that only used the TNE logo and name early on to give its group a sophmore identity as agreed upon by Wesleyan's original Alpha. This is the real TNE history!

Irrational. I don't even read these paragraphs anymore. You just skim for Purdue and you don't have to bother.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Do not allow the Alpha's agenda to removed verifiably sourced information because it does not suit their agenda

There is no doubt that there are issues surrounding TNE today- a relevant section (not even added by me). The section also has fully verifiable information in it that allows a person to have a fully complete picture to acces their own idea about the group. Stop your fascist ways by trying to control information on a site that is meant to be a democracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 04:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It was cited to an undergrad blog. That isn't a cite. Get a life.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• And I guess Purdue being labled as an "Indiana Alpha" connected to their own university society of "Skull and Crescent", verifiable even within your own website based on official records is something that I am making up. There is no excuse to remove any cited Purdue info, except for your own irrational issues about the group. Get real! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 04:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

There are serious POV issues with this page that need to be resolved. It's likely that it will have to remain protected for a while, so please discuss how to fix it here, along with proposed changes that are backed up by reliable sources Triona (talk) 06:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The Purdue Case

This Theta Nu Epsilon page as well as the current Alpha group has caused serious problems not only to TNE's history but also to several articles across Wikipedia. The Wesleyan group have completely controlled this page to suit their own agenda as if it was their private website for the Alpha chapter. Moreover, their screaming of hoax has also ruined the good work of several just editors. I do not have an account- nor does anyone here have an account- becasue there are several editors using the same public computer at Purdue. Not eveything that has a shared IP is by the same editor- and unfortunately this has damaged excellent articles written by some of the editors here because of the Alpha's nonsense of continually screaming hoax.

Now, to focus on this article specifically, from the very start the Purdue group has requested only one small mention of their group on the page. To list them as Indiana Alpha, which they rightfully are, to place the proper founding date which is 1882, and to note the group's autonomous connection to their own society of Skull and Crescent.

Now, if we wanted to, we can go into a full blown out history of the group, and I would be more than happy to create a TNE (Indiana Alpha) page in the same manner that The Machine has their own page, but I know that it is a waste of time since TNE Alpha will scream hoax again and we are back to the same issues all over again.

Now, it is completely verifiable even within TNE Alpha's website based on TNE records that Purdue's chapter was labled Indiana Alpha and it is connected to their own group Skull and Crescent. Anyone can even go to the the TNE webpage and check Purdue's chapter listing as such. There is no reasonable justification to keep stating that Indiana Alpha and Skull and Crescent is a hoax, but TNE Alphas continue to do that because they just don't like the idea of someone else being labled an Alpha- becasue of insecurities they have about their own group which is an upstart. Now I tried to explain more clearly the nature of Purdue's group a number of times, but they don't want to accept that because 1, they don't like the idea of another alpha and 2) they want to believe that they had some exclusive and unique relationship to Yale's Skull and Bones which is not true.

Now, without going into a lengthy talk about the Indiana Alpha chapter. The answer from Purdue's end is simply to leave the cited lines about Purdue's chapter within the "Present Day TNE" section as it stands. It is cited and verifiable- case closed, and stop perpetuating nonsense about a Purdue hoax- because that is BS. No one is challenging the current Alpha group's effort in trying to maintain the nation organization today- Purdue's chapter never did that- nor does it want to do that now. Purdue was simply and Alpha in Indiana to rule its own chapter autonomously- that is it. It only ever had one real connection to another chapter which is Yale's which it helped charter. Purdue's chapter was a uniquely autonomous chapter within TNE that always had its own unique society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.118 (talk) 07:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is all unsubstantiated and illogical nonsense. The Purdue Chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon became Skull & Crescent several decades ago. The only organization you represent are the people in your head.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV, tip

Just in trying to sort through this from an outsider's perspective, it would really help the credibility of both sides if you guys would just get user IDs. This many revisions and changes from anon IPs is hard to follow. Getting your own IDs and user histories would help establish yourselves, and help the admins figure out the backstory on this edit war. Just a suggestion. Snowfire51 (talk) 07:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• You're exactly right. Most of the editors of this article spend a lot of time pointing fingers instead of getting behind user IDs so we can actually figure out who is doing what. Please permanently block editing of this article from non-registered users. Anyone who really cares about improving this article should be willing to create a user ID. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm opposed to user id's.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"Present Day" section

The Present Day section is wholly argument by Purdue, it is not history, it is not referenced, it it is not NPOV. Please remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.247.3.210 (talk) 15:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• This is nonsense on a number of levels: 1) it was not a section added by anyone from Purdue- and you should also talk with BlueGold above about that. 2) We could care less where our factual and referenced facts about Purdue's chapter are placed- as long as we are acknowledged for what our chapter was since the 19th century: a fully autonoumous Indiana Alpha chapter that governed itself by itself and was connected exclusively to Purdue's own order called Skull and Crescent as even referenced on YOUR website. We are not going to tollerate some fantasy that Alpha had any control over what our group was becasue it never did even with the original Alpha and especially not with your upstart. TNE was only a loosly connected group of chapters that shared only one idea that they were 'sophmore' secret societies. Hell, even Alabama's group calls themselves something completely different all together, "The Machine". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.17 (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
  • To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups. It's also worth noting that some of these same anon IP editors have been causing a good deal of problems in other related articles. See a message that was left on my talk page for more details. BlueGold73 (talk) 16:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Purdue agrees with Bluegold. There is alot of issues surrounding the group, and we were very happy with Bluegold's contributions and were willing to work along with Bluegold's points. For the sake of record this is the full story about Purdue's group from the verifiable information that we have: There was a club in Indiana known as the "Lafayette Club" in West Lafayette, IN which was a society club for prominent people in Indiana (we possess the 1896 chapter book of it)- it wasn't specifically attached to the university- but John Purdue, the university's founder was a member of it. Purdue Univerrsity was founded in the 1860's as a school primarly for science and engineering and always had strong relationships with other high tech schools and colleges like MIT, Stanford as well as Illinois etc.

• In the 1860's Yale's Sheff school, which Skull and Bones looked down upon, since at the time science was not really believed to be a gentile endeavor vs. the liberal arts majors, chose to thumb their nose at S&B by creating their own secret society Book and Snake. Book and Snake was a more modern and progressive society and even John Purdue was heavily influenced by it. When John Purdue founded his own university in the 1860's , he also sought to create the foundation to a society like Book and Snake that was meant to be a progressive scientific community.

• In the 19th century, in the wake of the industrial revolution, science and technology became very important and many schools like Purdue, Michigan, Illinois etc. became powerhouses because they embraced engineering and science early on. Even Yale felt this pressure by adding the Sheff school officially to Yale University in the 19th century- and many prominant peope of S&B also wanted to have a connection to tech leaders for their own business interests. The logical thing for S&B to have done would be to turn to the Sheff school, but Book and Snake already controlled it. The other logical choice was MIT, but MIT had too close of a relationship to Harvrd and Yale and Harvard are traditional rivals.

• In 1882, on S&B's 50th anniversary, S&B took a strong interst in many of the prominant tech schools in the Midwest- especially since if you look at the background of many S&B people, such as Taft etc, their families were from the Midwest- places like Ohio etc. and many of them, like Taft, would even later in life pursue careers in the Midwest. Purdue's visit to Yale's campus and S&B had a profound influence on shaping the original senior society started by John Purdue as well as made Purdue's group become aware of sophmore societies on the East Coast like Wesleyan's TNE. When Purdue students came back they formulated a sophmore society to act as a feeder group for their own senior society that was heavily influence by S&B- there was 15 memebers and they tapped etc. Wesleyan's original Alpha allowd Purdue's sophmore group to use the TNE name and logo to give their group a sophmore identity and Purdue's group was designated as "Indiana Alpha" which meant that they governed their own society autonomously from Wes Alpha. In 1892, TNE Indiana Alpha became attached to the Lafayette Club as well as Skull and Crescent and the societies also beacame very elite because the Lafayette club attracted many prominent Americans- including Chase who collaborated with John Purdue in the founding of Lafayette bank.

• Traditionally, there has been many hear say rumors from outsiders about the society, and the so-called substantial secrets that it may or may have not had. Many of these points have become part of the lore of the group, and many suggest that the group really just went underground and never died. Some of the lore surrounding the group includes that they removed the body of John Purdue from his campus grave site, others claim that the group has substantial secrets about the U.S. treasury disclosed to John Purdue by Salmon P. Chase, while others claim that there was even a higher order housed within the Lafayette Club that served as a unifing order between Midwest and East Coast society that used an owl and skull and crossbones as its symbol. While all of this lore is interesting, and genuinely part of the group's surrounding mystique- it is not a hoax nor should it be presented as a verifiable fact- it is very much like Skull and Bones lore of that group having the genuine skull of Geronimo.

• The verifiable facts that we have about Purdue TNE are further referenced by Alpha TNE records too that anyone can check for themselves on the TNE website in the visitors chapter listing for Purdue's chapter. Purdue was Indiana Alpha connected to its own order called Skull and Crescent. One can even find the 1892 date of the group's attachment to the Lafayette Club within the Alpha's TNE records as well. There is no excuse to remove the Purdue chapter's cited information that is verified even by TNE Alpha's own records. We have only listed very modest points about Purdue's chapter on Wikipedia's TNE article when there is even so much more that can be said about the group.

• For further verifiable information about the group in Purdue's records, important dates are listed below:

• 1869- founding of Skull & Crescent Senior Society with the founding of Purdue University (John Purdue's Halloween birthdate is what is used as start, October 31)

• 1882- founding of the Indiana Alpha chapter of TNE on the year of Yale's 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones and the 80th birthday of John Purdue.

• 1892- on the 10th anniversary of the Skull and Crescent and Alpha Indiana connection and on the 90th birthday of John Purdue, the groups are attached to the Lafayette Club in West Lafayette, IN

• 1902- on the 20th anniversary of Purdue's Indiana Alpha and the 100th birthday of John Purdue, the group helps charter the Yale chapter of TNE in 1902

• 1992- on the 110th anniversary of Alpha Indiana and the 190th birthday of John Purdue, Purdue's secret societies are no longer noticed on campus- either defunct or underground

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.17 (talk) 17:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC) 

This is all nonsense. Folks, there IS NO Purdue chapter. There hasn't been since the early 1900's. This guy is pulling your legs. Any admins here, this guy copyied my ip address and used it to sign his own post above in the 'Founding Date' section. Doesn't that give you some clue as to who is doing what here? He's got another one that's signed "thetanuepsilon @ alumnidirector dot com x" in 'The National Organization' section, that's not even a good job at faking. he's just pulling your legs and you're going along with it. Nobody at Purdue thinks there's been a chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon in something like 80 years. ---BlueGold is completely taken in by this..."To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups." There IS NO Purdue group. It's all a joke. 65.141.156.17 made up this whole thing. ANYBODY, search Google with Purdue and 'Theta Nu Epsilon', and all you'll get is the Theta Nu Epsilon website referring to the late 19th century chapter and this article. There is nothing else, because that's all that there is.129.133.124.252 (talk) 04:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)>

• It shouldn't be any surprise that nothing recent turns up in a google search on a Purdue group (if there is in fact one). I doubt much of anything will turn up on any chapter except for maybe Nebraska where there always seems to be some shenanigans going on in true TNE tradition. It's a secret society, and most of the current chapters, independent or affiliated with Alpha, are remaining sub rosa as is expected. Even the Alpha chapter makes mention in the news portion of its website when "a lost chapter has been located."<re Alpha recognizes that these groups are out there carrying on independently and not necessarily making an effort to contact Alpha. Therefore saying something like "Nobody at Purdue thinks there's been a chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon in something like 80 years" doesn't really carry much weight. I would have said the same about several schools in recent time, but I've since been proven otherwise. BlueGold73 (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not the case with Purdue. It didn't get lost, it publicly and clearly became an independent sophomore honorary society, Skull & Crescent. That's all. And that was in like 1908 or 1918, whatever. There hasn't been a chapter there in 80 years. Skull & Crescent is still alive, which is why the Theta Nu Epsilon website lists it as active, but it isn't Theta Nu Epsilon chapter, hasn't been for decades, and this poster, 65.141.156.17, only represents this group in his head. There is no friction between two groups because there isn't any second group. That's the whole punch line to his joke. ---And apparently the fact that he's signed posts in this discussion with MY ISP (as I've pointed out twenty times now)is apparently fine with you and everyone else. He had a whole page on a secret hidden Skull & Crescent deleted this past July. It was great. The imaginary order was controlled by a secret family of Venetian nobility and had the secrets of the United States committed to it for safekeeping. It went on and on. Look, BlueGold73, if you want to waste your time dealing with this stuff, go right ahead. All this shows is the huge vulnerability of wikipedia to any committed prankster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The only reason I want to "waste my time dealing with this stuff" is because people keep removing a lot of the information I've contributed that actually is referenced and has nothing to do with the Purdue issue. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Alpha Liars!!!

Excuse me, Stop making up BS about taking someone elses IP's- how desperate are you! Also, Purdue never had any website thetanuepsilon@alumnidirector... give me a break, this is all part of your misinformation game to gloss over facts. The ip that is in the box above happened when additional information was added about Purdue's dates- it got that way automatically-and I don't know how to fix it- but anyone can check the history records of the page and see that it was authentically posted- further proof of your lying ways and lack of credibility! Moreover, why do you keep making an issue about Purdue's chapter being active- this is not even a relevant point- even on the page right now it says that it ended or is at least underground as of 1992. It dosen't matter if it is active Purdue TNE posting , or Purdue TNE alumni posting, or even simply Purdue students concerned about their school's history. This is about historical accuracy and the fact that Purdue's chapter was an "Indiana Alpha" chapter and connected to its own society "Skull and Crescent". That is what is on the page right now, and it is verifiable even within YOUR own records and website-case closed. Purdue chapter was called by you guys alpha alpha early on when there was only a few chapters because it was the second alpha, but as more chapters were added, the greek letters started getting doubled, alpha alpha for Bowdoin, alpha beta for Kansas etc. Purdue was labled as the Alpha in Indiana. Your own records also indicate Purdue's group as a feeder organization into Skull and Crescent, hence as some point Purdue TNE breaks off into Skull and Crescent. Since Purdue was autonomus- and all of your dates are not necessarily correct, as even mentioned on the page right now, Wes Alpha did not know all the facts surrounding Purdue's group as well as many others, but they have record of the charting of yale's chapter in 1902/1903 so they also indicate on Purdue's listing a still active 1905 date etc.

Moreover, even in a well known active chapter like The Machine, those guys are not answering to you, they are autonomous- hence there was and still is autonomous chapters from the true Alpha and, of course, from you upstarts. The bottom line is no TNE chapter today or TNE alumni respect you guys- no one is answering to you. Your group is nothing more than smoke and mirrors trying to create a marketing campaign with your webpage and control of the Wikipedia article to make you guys seem like you are more than what you are- a phoney upstart- not even your own school blog respects you. You seem to be good for nothing more than trying to sell yourselves by chalking your logo and screeming hoax or being liars when you don't get your way. Now the bottom line is this for the last time: the page states right now that Purdue's chapter was an Indian Alpha and that the chapter was connected to its own school group called "Skull and Crescent" That specific point is fully verifiable EVEN WITHIN YOUR RECORDS AND ON YOUR WEBSITE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE. The small point made about Purdue within the giant article which is mostly vanity about Alpha is correct, verifiable, and cited. Case closed! What is the issue about what is listed on the article right now about what is said about Purdue's chapter? What is listed is verified even by your own records- you just don't like it becuse it takes away from your ego trip- that is all that this is about- you are looking to control Alpha upstart's image because the group has insecurities and legitimacy problems —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.42 (talk) 07:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Purdue's Final Statement

Now, we are not going to keep making the same point over and over again- nor is this a discussion about Purdue's senior societies or some other hoax nonsense that Alpha wants to keep dishing out. We have made our case about Purdue's chapter of TNE and we have proven that Purdue's group is recorded as "Indiana Alpha" within official records that are verifiable, and we have also proven that Purdue's chapter is connected to their own campus group called Skull and Crescent within official records that are verifiable. Purdue's chapter must be labled as such and recognized for its true character. Case Officially Closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.42 (talk) 08:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Good. I hope it's final. The Purdue chapter hasn't existed in several decades. It became Skull and Crescent. It's not existing in secret, in hiding, in the celestial ether, or in the 7th dimension. Citing the Theta Nu Epsilon website does you no good, that only indicates that Skull & Crescent exists, not the dead Purdue Theta Nu Epsilon chapter. And let's be clear, that means ONLY the simple honest, straightforward Sophomore honary society, not anything else. Yale never authorized Purdue to do or be anything, and it couldn't have because Skull & Bones and Theta Nu Epsilon are different societies, and Skull & Bones can't authorize Theta Nu Epsilon chapters any more than it can authorize Chevrolet Dealerships. The Purdue chapter never had the authority to charter anything at Yale, and the papers of regarding the Yale Theta Nu Epsilon chapter are at Wesleyan. The Alpha Alpha chapter was for its short career a perfectly legit chapter of Theta Nu Epsilon, like any other, with no special powers, no fantasy authorizations. I have pointed out the false citations you've offered, (the Theta Nu Epsilon website), the logical impossibilities involved in your assertions, (Skull & Bones can't authorize chapters of other people's societies), and you've offered NO REAL CITATIONS for anything you've offered. This :"Some of the lore surrounding the group includes that they removed the body of John Purdue from his campus grave site, others claim that the group has substantial secrets about the U.S. treasury disclosed to John Purdue by Salmon P. Chase, while others claim that there was even a higher order housed within the Lafayette Club that served as a unifing order between Midwest and East Coast society that used an owl and skull and crossbones as its symbol." is completely laughable, and shame on anyone who gets taken in by such obvious hoaxing. I don't know why you persist in ruining this wikipedia article with stupid pranks like this, but you really need to find other people to bother. I don't think this was ever really funny, though it is amazing that you were able to sucker in people like BlueGold and others. In other words, you've got nothing; you've proven nothing; you've only made unbelieveable and impossible claims. : ) Had enough, or do you need more?159.247.3.210 (talk) 20:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Don't accuse me of being suckered into anything. How much have I contributed about Purdue - nothing more than possibly changing its "Indiana Alpha" designation to the proper "Alpha Alpha" as it is recorded in the numerous society records that I have in my possession. The only reason I'm caught up in this is because in the process of the edit wars between Alpha and Purdue, all of my contributions either get completed modified or removed altogether. I'm not taking Purdue's side because I'll admit some of their allegations seem quite far fetched and I don't see the references to back many of them up. I'm also not taking the Alpha side either because I'm very skeptical of its ability to act as a national organization when some many groups remain independent and even against the group at Wesleyan. TNE has never had a truly successful national organization in its history, and now is no exception. That should be recognized instead of covered up. BlueGold73 (talk) 21:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• A few last remarks from Purdue for clarification: 1) We have already stated that Purdue was first labled as Alpha Alpha early on as the second Alpha chapter when there was only a few chapters in existence- when TNE expanded there was a doubling of greek letters to compensate for the numerous chapters, alpha alpha is now really for Bowdoin, alpha beta is for Kansas etc. Purdue was at the most recent labeling "Indiana Alpha" as noted within your records. Purdue finds it amazing that Wes glosses over their own official listing of it as also "Indiana Alpha"- there is no other group in any of your chapter listings that has a state name and Alpha attached to it. It is a completely unique formulation just for Purdue, verified in your records. If you want to label Purdue as "Alpha Alpha; Indiana Alpha" - we have no problem with that- but it is confusing since as the society progressed Bowdoin is now recognized as Alpha Alpha, Purdue was simply Indiana Alpha at that point. Also, all that lore stuff has nothing to do with TNE Indiana Alpha- it has to do with Purdue's senior societies- stop confussing that, they are two different groups. Purdue's TNE was just where Purdue's senior society would get their members from- it was a feeder group- and Wes Alpha allowed Purdue TNE to be autonomous because Purdue TNE was being used as a feeder group- no big deal. Wes Alpha never knew anything about Purdue's senior societies in terms of their internal workings, and quite frankly, Purdue's senior societies never wanted anyone to know anything about them- the disappearence of any articles about Purdue's senior groups was greatly welcomed- it was also not written by anyone attached officailly to the society-but rather by some nosey Purdue students that did not have all of their facts straight. Moreover, I don't see what is so strange about any secret society having lore attached to it- they all have it because they are strange to outsiders- and I was very clear about what was lore. Finally, what is such the big deal if a society from Purdue , founded before even going to Yale- so I don't know where all this Yale Skull and Bones sanctioning nonsense is coming from, went to visit the campus of Yale in 1882 and was further inspired from Yale's societies, such as the idea of tapping members or having a 15 member group. It is the visit to Yale that inspireded also bringing back an East Coast idea of a sophmore society of death to Purdue- that is what is meant when some posters say Purdue's sophmore society came from Yale. Anyone can even go on the campus today and take pictures of the tombs and learn more about the campus's culture or even meet people of the various secret groups. Actor Paul Giamatti is a member of Skull and Bones- fans today can even send him fan mail if they want to. No one here cares if anyone knows anything about Purdue's senior societies- quite frankly it is better the least you know, and enough ignorant people across the board at Purdue and not at Purdue have caused enough damage- and everyone confuses things that pertain exclusively to the senior group of Purdue as also belonging to TNE Alpha Indiana (they are not one and the same thing). TNE Alpha Indiana is simply a sophmore society that fed into a senior society- at the senior level, tapps had to go through a whole new initiation process and learn about a whole different society all together. So stop talking about all this Purdue senior stuff becasue it has nothing to do with the issues about TNE. Purdue TNE was a typical chapter of TNE with a few alterations- there was tapping and 15 memebers exclusively and basic things of that nature- Purdue's senior societies have nothing what so ever to do with TNE at all, except TNE serving as a feeder group into it on Purdue's campus. So, we only have one concern when it come to TNE and that is about the historical accuracy of Purdue's TNE listing: Specifically, that it is Indiana Alpha autonomous of Wesyleyan's Alpha, especially since we don't want people to believe that any chapter of TNE had a right to having a relationship to Skull and Crescent or the Lafayette Club, only Purdue's chapter did. That is it. We don't care about your upstart or your agenda of trying to be the phoney head the National Chapter or whatever- Purdue in general never thought much of TNE- it was only useful as a prep society for preparing students to deal with something much greater later on. Lable Purdue's chapter accurately as Indiana Alpha and mention it as fully autonomous from Wes Alpha and we are done. We don't care where that is stated or in what category section- just make that point clear and we are good to go. If you want to stress another point that only Weslyan's Alpha maintained the national organization and Purdue's group was labled as an Alpha to note its own autonomous governing of only it's own chapter- that's fine with us. If you want a vanity project that will desperately blow yourselves up into more than you are, knock your socks off! But we will not tolerate anything less than what is verifiable even within your own records: Purdue TNE as INDIANA ALPHA and the exclusive relationship alone of that chapter to our senior societies! No other chapter of TNE had any right to be a part of the Lafayette Club than Purdue's chapter of TNE- and that point is all that we care about!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.236 (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to see you backing off some of your bigger lies. You admit that you ended up with my ISP signing your comment. (Why you didn't get banned for that, I do not know.) You accept that Skull & Bones couldn't authorize anything at Purdue to do anything. You haven't quite adnmitted that Purdue Theta Nu Epsilon is dead, but you're close to that. You have thrown in a lot of vague and meaningless talk about Purdue senior societies as if you were talking about something real, when you're not. Skull & Crescent at Purdue is NOT a senior society, it's a Sophomore society, ( http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~skull/ ) but you probably forgot that. Among the wierd and senseless things you're still pretending to espouse is that when the Alpha Alpha chapter of T.N.E. at Purdue started calling itself "Indiana Alpha", that in no way implies that somehow Purdue has any right to create chapters. There's no evidence that the Purdue Chapter ever DID grant a charter back in the few years at the beginning of the 20th century when it existed. You obviously don't understand the state-naming system used by many fraternities (following the Phi Beta Kappa lead), that names chapters in alphabetical order by state. Several fraternities use the system, and will have an alpha chapter in every state the society has chapters, but those 'alphas' DO NOT have rights as a founding, parent chapter. it doesn't make sense that they would. So if the Alpha Alpha at Purdue called itself indiana Alpha for a couple of years, that doesn't say ANYTHING abouit the perogatives the chapter claimed. So you really do have nothing. Moreover, even if this Purdue chapter, during it's brief existence decades ago did claim any extraordinary authority it could only have been against the Constitution of Theta Nu Epsilon. Let's not forget that the reason why you had to resort to the wild claim that Skull & Bones authorized Purdue T.N.E. to be different, (which you have done many times), is because you had to find some other basis for your overall claims for the Purdue chapter as an independent entity. In the end, all you've done is make a lot of laughable claims, not cite to anything real, rant generally, give up on a lot of claims when you're proven wrong, screw up a servicable article, fake a bunch of signatures, annoy people, post a lot of disengenuous things, ---are you that starved for attention? And if you think somehow all these ridiculous and offensive charges you're making against the Alpha Chapter and the rest of the Theta Nu Epsilon Society are somehow productive, then...well, they are not productive. This imaginary society you belong to is NOT in conflict with Theta Nu Epsilon and the Alpha Chapter because it does not exist. The 'Present Day' section of the article should be removed, it is argument from an imaginary chapter.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, BlueGold, you were suckered into it. "To remove the present day section would be to ignore the fact that there is clearly a significant amount of controversy surrounding the current existence state of the society. I'm staying out of the specific disagreements between Purdue and Alpha because I don't have access to any sources that address that issue, and I'm not affiliated with either of those two specific groups." He had you believing that there was some real group at Purdue. There isn't. There is Theta Nu Epsilon, with the chapters it has, and the amicable relations it has with independent but historically related chapters. Then there is one guy with his imaginary chapter and his skein of hoaxes, and he had you believing there was actually a group at Purdue. The Alpha Alpha chapter at Purdue is long dead, it was replaced by Skull & Crescent, a perfectly fine and innocuous Sophomore honor society that is not involved in any of this. There is no real controversy since there is no real party on the other side. One wacko in the wilderness is not a real party.129.133.124.252 (talk) 06:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

FINAL STRAW!!!!

Blue Gold noted your IP of being banned- you are the wack job. It is the 129...and the 159... that got banned, not any Purdue IP's of 65... You are the biggest liar there ever was and nothing more than that. A desperate, insecure upstart that is hopelessly trying to give some impression that your group has some control over a National Organzition that doesn't exist right now and never ever truly existed in any kind of secure form in TNE's history, even noted by Blue Gold. We are done playing games with you loosers. Your group hasn't chartered a single TNE chapter in your life, and there isn't a single TNE chapter that is speaking up to verify your sanctioning of any chapters today or your authority to be the head of any National Organization- you are nothing more than a bunch of frauds that happen to go to Wesleyan and think that that makes you authentic TNE with the right to head the National Organization- there is no National Organization today acting as an official governing body - just some smoke an mirrors website that is pretending to be the National Organization- give us all a break. The bottom line is this: Purdue's chapter is noted ,as even in YOUR own records as, AN INDIANA ALPHA CHAPTER WITH AN EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR OWN CAMPUS GROUP CALLED SKULL AND CRESCENT Any way you look at that statement- that statement is factually true and proven to be true even within YOUR own records for everyone to see- the records that you guys based 90 percent of the article on. Now, if that statement about Purdue is is not contained within this article somewhere, we will flag this artcile as having a bias, we will flag this article as lacking citations within the body of the text, we will flag this article as needing objective sources, and we will go on and on and on- No one respects you upstarts that have no real knowledge about TNE, and we are not going to put up with a punk 1980's upstart that even tried to claim membership into M7- how pathetic you all are! Now, we are done with your Nazi ways of trying to cover up the truth- but that truth is there for everyone to see even within YOUR own records as Purdue being recognized as INDIANA ALPHA ,and Purdue having a connection to their own group Skulll and Crescent- if you are going to deny that factual point- than 90% of this article has to be rejected as well because 90% of the info on this article is coming from that same record. You can jabber on all you want from this point forwrd and try to reject Purdue's societies that you know nothing about- but we presented our case, proved Purdue being recorded as INDIANA ALPHA, and we are done talking. If our Purdue factual, verified statement is not contained within this article then we will continuously flag this article on a number of levels- maybe others are weak and willing to have liar punks control Wikipedia to suit their agenda- but we will not! You can say what ever you want from this point forward, we don't care- we will only take action to preserve the historical truth about Purdue's chapter within this article from this point forward. Talking is done, and if any editor in Wikipdeia suggests to talk things out ever again on the discussion page in the future- you can forget about that too! We have discussed, and we have proven Purdue's group as being INDIANA ALPHA. Talking across the board as an idea for resolution has been exhausted. GOOD BYE!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.85 (talk) 15:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, you admit that calling a chapter a state alpha doesn't necessarily give it any perogitives to do anything. Nice that that's settled. And you admit that Purdue had no basis, other than it's own will and intent to act against the constitutions of Theta Nu Epsilon, to try to set itself up as some sort of fake parent chapter. And you admit that there IS NO Theta Nu Epsilon chapter on the Purdue campus and hasn't been for years. And you admit that Skull & Crescent is just an ordinary Sophomore honorary society. I'd be happier if you admitted that your claim to some sort of relationship with Skull & Bones at Yale is wholly imaginary, but I guess you can't get everything. Cool. With all those admissions, I suppose there is a basis for going forward. I don't expect an apology for perpetuating a hoax. Have a nice day.159.247.3.210 (talk) 17:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, BlueGold, but if you read his stuff carefully, (and the boatload of nonsense he posted this past July), there is no Purdue chapter, and as another poster above noted, the Alpha Chapter is accepted as the leader of the Theta Nu Epsilon National by its own chapters, by the independent chapters with whom the Alpha is in good relations, and even by independent chapters with whom the Alpha does not maintain relations. There's nothing to cite whatever for any claim to the contrary. it's just another made up allegation. This critic from Purdue is just attacking the Alpha Chapter with whatever slurs he can come up with, and which don't even make a lot of sense. He is doing it in support of an organization that has no real existence, and in support of historical claims that are both inconceivable and wholly unsupported. ---That is a hoax, that is stuff which does not belong in the article, and that is stuff which, (at least to any impartial observer), is grounds for being banned. His whole article on a secret, hidden order of Skull & Crescent was deleted this summer, because there wasn't a word of truth in any of it. He had this whole section on how Theta Nu Epsilon led the straw hat hatband fashions at the turn of the century which was kind of funny, I'll give him points for that.129.133.124.252 (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

No resolution has been accepted to have the page's "Present Day TNE" section removed

Removal of this section created by Blue Gold is contra to the objectives of the resolution as well as removing cited information about the society. No one agreed to removing it! This is unacceptable Wikipedia practice showing undemocratic favor to a particular interest group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.141.156.232 (talk) 17:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The section started with a claim "However, a number of TNE chapters still remain independent from Alpha's National Organization, and continue to question the current Alpha chapter's legitimacy to act as the National Organization," which is a claim on behalf of a non-existent organization, and then included a long hoax history about some different society intervening in Theta Nu Epsilon affairs, all of which lacked citation, (because, of course, it couldn't have because it was made up). The section tried to show there was some sort of controversy about the National Organization, but the only 'controversy' was with a fictional entity. These people making ridiculous claims about Theta Nu Epsilon are only hurting the society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.247.3.210 (talk) 16:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And a lot of other information was removed that was completely factual and cited throughout the article. That's where I have a problem with what's going on here. BlueGold73 (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. One paragraph removed was on Taft, which may have been accurate and cited, but it started with something flat out incorrect, saying that "Theta Nu Epsilon boasts the initiation of...". Theta Nu Epsilon doesn't boast any such thing. The Theta Nu Epsilon website barely mentions Taft's initiation. Nor should it, the initiation of one man doesn't really mean anything, and certainly doesn't define the organization, which is where the paragraph was put. Now, a dozen years later when there was correspondence between the society and Taft about him being named the president of the national, that might be of some weight, but the Alpha Chapter isn't going to release those documents, so they can't be cited here.

Another paragraph suggested that the Alpha Chapter was originally censured by the Wesleyan faculty, which was cited correctly but was incorrect, anyway. It must have been some myth that someone reported as true. There is nothing in the Wesleyan University faculty minutes that supports this, nothing in the Wesleyan campus newspaper, nothing in the correspondence of the Dean or the correspondence or diaries of the Secretary of the Faculty that would support this. Nor is there anything in the writings of the founding members at Wesleyan. Nor did the Wesleyan chapter "go sub rosa" ever in the first several decades of its existence, and always, for example, appeared in the yearbook, the newspaper, stage public events, etc. So, the cite was true, but the content was not.

A third paragraph asserted that the same location, (the October 1910 Sophomore), said that districts were instituted to combat illegitimate chapters, which is not true. There's nothing in the October 1910 Sophomore to support that. It just is a bad citation to nothing. Districts were not created to combat illegitimate chapters. Further, even though districts were created at that time, it doesn't really need to be in a wikipedia article. Just because something happened doesn't mean it is worth including here. The district plan you mention was never really implemented, and was abandoned a couple of years later. A few years after that a new districting plan was attempted, and that one didn't fare much better. Why include minor bureaucratic meaningless details?

So, a couple of half-truths and other details might have been missed, but you also put back some of the whopping nonsense of the Purdue people, too. Look at the garbage that still is here in this discussion page. Between the ridiculous Treasury-secret nonsense to the bitter invective against the National Organization, there is an awful lot of stuff that didn't belong anywhere. In fact, these raging Purdue outbursts may have occurred at just exactly when the society was engaged in some critical negotiations and spoiled the matter. A high price to pay for someone's hoaxing rants.129.133.124.252 (talk) 00:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Outside opinion

I have been following this discussion from the sidelines for a while now, and have a few suggestions and comments:

• One of the contributers, editing here under 159.247.3.210 and 129.133.124.199 has just been blocked for one month for severe incivility for edits to several articles; see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive365#129.133.124.199 - Continued hostility and incivil behaiviour. At this time only the Wesleyan U. IP 199 is blocked; should they act similarly here in the future using the Middletown 210 IP or another related IP before their block expires, please report them for block evasion; do not respond in kind as it just makes your own positions less defensible.
• Given the fact that that user is no longer able to disrupt this talk page, it seems to me the right time for the rest of you to try to hash things out in a WP:civil manner.
• Although I understand that individuals contributing to an article on secret societies may want to edit anonymously to keep within fashion, I highly recommend the creation of a dedicated user ID. You don't have to give up your real names, addresses, or social security numbers to do so. The benefits of doing so are these:

• Administrators and other users can easily tell which user is which; this helps you when things get heated and someone is called in to sort them out.
• If you are using a public IP, others editing from the same terminal or building may be making edits from the same IP; creating an account distinguishes you from them.
• Doing so shows that you are committed to working with this process, not against it. Such a commitment shed a favorable light on you when problems arise. Since you all seem to care enough about this article to argue heatedly about it for so long, please help other Wikipedia editors and admins help you by working with the system to your advantage.

• Finally, although I know it is hard to not respond to negativity in kind, you'll find that you'll receive more support here if you can keep your cool even when under fire.

Best,--Pgagnon999 (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sourced info

Can someone explain how some information that had sources... for example president taft being a member which was proven by an article from the new york times that it was linked to was removed? Uh how does that make any sense? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skey (talk • contribs) 19:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It was lost when the article had to be reverted to a pre-edit war version. It was hardly relevant to the history of the society. Many organizations give honorary memberships. They are not really substantive.4.245.239.126 (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

An Objective Solution

Since most Wesleyan IP's are blocked and the Purdue group seems to have exhausted their imput. This would be a good time for an objective solution:

1st, in support of Purdue, their group is recorded as being both Alpha Alpha and Indiana Alpha within Alpha records. The formulation of a state name and Alpha is completely unique to their group alone, and would have to imply some sort of governing priveledges, even if it is merely autonomy over their own group or within the state of Indiana. Also, the split off into Skull and Crescent is also recorded within Alpha records too- we just don't have any way of knowning weather that means a sophmore honor society or a senior secret society, sub rosa. As for the 1882 date, dates across the board are basically up in the air for all chapters, except for the founding Alpha, and 1882 for Purdue's founding seems to not be an issue by both groups, it has been listed that way for as long time- and it is in fact the 50th anniversary date of Skull and Bones, and worth mentioning.

I would add a statement about Purdue's chapter to the article, creating more objectivity to this TNE article, but the Purdue statement should be qualified in the following manner:

• The TNE chapter of Purdue University was recorded as both being the Alpha Alpha chapter and the Indian Alpha Chapter, with the later chapter name possibly implying governing privledges. The founding date of Purdue's Chapter of TNE is generally accepted to be 1882, a year that also marks the 50th anniversary of Yale's Skull and Bones. Purdue's chapter is also recorded to have been connected to their own campus society called Skull and Crescent, a society which may have been a campus honor society, still existing today, or possibly a secret senior society, acting sub rosa, and as of yet, lacking verifiability.

We now have a qualified factual statement for Purdue's chapter across the board.

• both chapter names are given (proven within alpha's records).
• 1882 founding date with "generally accepted" to qualify it.
• 1882 being the 50th anniversary of Skull and Bones (proven to be true by S&B's founding of 1832).
• and the connection to Skull and Crescent (known to be true by Alpha records), but written in a way that is qualified to either mean both possible groups, with also making clear that S&C as a senior secret society has, at least as of yet, still not proven itself verifiably.

Now in support of the Wes chapter, it should be made clear that the Alpha chapter alone, during any point of TNE' existence, was the chapter that headed the National Organization- and Purdue's status as an "alpha" of Indiana never challenged that point.

Finally, we do need a "Present Day" section to tie in some of the current issues that surround TNE today- the mere fact that this page alone had to be shut down, is enough proof that there are issue with the group. We also can not gloss over the fact that the current Alpha is a reactivated chapter from a period of dormancy, and there is no way for anyone to verify, with certainty, that the current Alpha knows authentically the true, original traditions of TNE. This point should honestly be made. Also, factual statements that have also been proven by sourced material should also be added back to the article. To accomplish the whole task oulined above, I nominate Blue Gold, since he is most knowledgable about the group and not a member of either Wes or Purdue.

This is my proposed solution.Jonesbig (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

While I am a bit more objective in that I don't represent either of those two chapters, I do take some issue with the statement "the Alpha chapter alone, during any point of TNE' existence, was the chapter that headed the National Organization." At the height of TNE's activity, several national organization's were quite active. In fact during much of this time, Alpha Chapter was not head of any of these organizations. In fact, that's why the first national organization was formed - because Alpha recognized that they no longer were able to maintain order and unity throughout the organization. That is what has caused much of the current issues today. Alpha has returned to the spotlight as head of a reorganized national organization, and several chapters that were independent or at one time under one of the other national organizations have taken issue with Alpha's ability to simply choose to regain control. On the other hand, many chapters support what Alpha is doing. It's really a mess to put it bluntly. What I really have a problem with is when someone from the Wesleyan IP's makes a statement that I cited something correctly, but that source had incorrect information, even though we're talking about historic publications from the National Organization that Alpha was a member of. Apparently the current members at Wesleyan have the ability to go back in time and verify things that were published nearly 100 years ago. And then on other items they tell me that something I cited just doesn't exist at all. I guess I'll just have to start scanning documents and uploading them. After all, they're old enough to be in public domain anyway I guess. I'll try to put together something objective for a present day section with some references. Thanks to everyone who's stepped in to try and settle all of these disputes. BlueGold73 (talk) 02:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Agree and second Jonesbig's nomination of BlueGold73; this material needs to be reorganized with references and an eye toward nuetrality and inclusivity. BlueGold has previously demonstrated that investment. I also strongly suggest a strict regimen of WP:Deny recognition (don't feed the trolls) with regard to future disruptive and uncivil contributions here, with 3RR violations reported immediately and retaliatory comebacks avoided.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• P.S., I have added the troll warning template to this page with the aim to alert contributers to carefully choose their rhetoric here and so avoid flame wars. --Pgagnon999 (talk) 15:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• The Purdue story is a myth. The Theta Nu Epsilon chapter became Skull & Crescent. Skull & Crescent is an honorary Sophomore/Junior society that had several midwestern chapters.

http://www.purdue.edu/ODOS/sao/greek/recruitment/GV_Summer.pdf http://www.purduegreeks.com/councils/ifc/docs/forms/SkullandCrescent2007.doc

• The Purdue chapter wasn't even the original Skull & Crescent chapter.

• Since that's the case, any editor should regard the claims by the advocates of some special ultra-secret existence for a Purdue organization as being equally creditable.

• If someone can find a link to a college history, an alumni magazine article, a local newspaper article, any neutral independent source, at all; they should go right ahead. People may want to consider wikipedia policies on no original research and verifiability.4.245.239.126 (talk) 19:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not true that "The formulation of a state name and Alpha is completely unique to their group alone, and would have to imply some sort of governing priveledges". Phi Beta Kappa, Sigma Phi, Alpha Kappa Psi, Alpha Omega Alpha, Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Kappa Delta, all name their chapters alpha, beta, gamma, delta, and so on, of the various states, there is no governing diffference in any of these societies among their chapters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.194 (talk) 03:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point, which brings up another. The Alpha chapter of those groups don't have any special governing priviledges. The governance lies with the national organizations/grand chapters of those groups. If that body failed to exist, governance would not automatically fall back to the Alpha chapter unless such an arrangement was agreed upon by the other chapters. In the case of TNE, the current, and disputed, Alpha chapter has decided that it has the authority to do just that, by acting as the national organization by its own decision. Several chapters and alumni dispute the authority, and even dispute Alpha's existance as a legitimate chapter because it had been reactivated by a group of students without permission or direction from other chapters or any national governing body. Sure they have access to more of the historical documents, because of their location at the birthplace of the society, but does that automatically make them a legitimate group, or give them the automatic ability to assume the role of national organization? I'm playing devils advocate here a little bit, because this is an issue that is at the heart of the current conflict between the chapters, and has resulted in much of the flame war between the Wesleyan IPs and Purdue IPs, as well as several other commenters, here on the discussion page (much of which has been deleted long ago by some of the Wesleyan IPs). Another thing to keep in mind is that the descrepency between chapter names was generally caused by the fact that several national organizations were active at the same time granting new charters. As some of these chapters eventually came to agreement with the original , larger national organization, some of these chapter letter designations had to be changed so they were not in conflict with one another and followed the naming standards of the then nationl organization. BlueGold73 (talk) 13:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you check the history of EVERY college fraternity or society, the Alpha chapter IS the governing chapter until some more elaborate governing procedure is instituted, usually a convention scheme, (the Alpha or whatever the original chapter was, with DKE, it was the Phi). The Alpha Chapter's position is not challenged by any chapter and your insistance that there is a dispute has been unsubstantiated by anyone here posting any legitimate cite to anything suggesting that there is a Theta Nu Epsilon group at Purdue or anywhere else that does contest the Alpha Chapter's position. Of the known surviving generally accepted entities that are descended from or related to Theta Nu Epsilon, Berkeley and Alabama, while remaining totally independent, do not challange the National Organization of Theta Nu Epsilon, and maintain positive relations, and even Kansas and Nebraska, which do not maintain positive relations, do not challenge what the Alpha Chapter is or what it is doing. (And actually, I don't think any of these claim to be direct continuations of the original society.) ---Of course, I will not be providing citations to prove that, but I do not have to, I am not trying to put it in the article. People who want to maintain something different will have to provide citations to prove what they want to prove. The challenge from 4.245.239.126 is correct, "If someone (making claims that there is a dispute, or that there is something at Purdue or anywhere else) can find a link to a college history, an alumni magazine article, a local newspaper article, any neutral independent source, at all; they should go right ahead. People may want to consider wikipedia policies on no original research and verifiability." If there is no verifiable citable source, it can't go in. You can't just insist there is a dispute and then rewrite the article that way.129.133.124.252 (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Some Neutral Evidence of a Secret Order of Skull and Crescent

First off, in all of the Alpha's recordings listed on your website, only one chapter is noted to being an Alpha with a state name- and that is Purdue's chapter. It is especially unique, at least, within your record's acknowledgment of them as such- so even if there does exist other Alphas with a state name, there was no special effort on your chapter's part of acknowledging them as such, but for Purdue, there was- a strong indication that there was something rather significant in also making the additional effort of acknowledging them as "Indiana Alpha". Also, It doesn't really make sense why a sophmore secret society would turn into a greek system honor society when on Purdue's campus there was always a very different classification between the greek system and secret societies, and in fact, any Purdue secret society today would have to be sub rosa otherwise they would receive alot of flack from the school- secret societies are currently outlawed on Purdue's campus. Also, there is objective evidence that Purdue's chapter may have been linked to a midwest Secret Order of Skull and Crescent attached to a sophmore secret society. Check out this listing from a Big Ten college newspaper, scroll down till you find the right one, but there is one that talks about a sophmore Skull and Crescent secret society group that some thought was linked to the KKK, and that fits right into some of the sourced info that BlueGold73 had posted about TNE- so there is some neutral evidence to say that Indiana Alpha may have been linked to a secret order known as Skull and Crescent. Here's the link and I hope it posts: http://www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=96b212c-3490-4727-87a9-a85c3321d3c0 Jonesbig (talk) 05:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to want to pop up. Go do a search on the internet, not through google, just a regular internet search under "Theta Nu Epsilon Skull Crescent" you should find the Daily Illini article I am talking about, probably on the second page saying "Skull and Crescent was the sophmore version of the KKK and Fred Turner was the faculty advisor". That is the one I'm trying to get to post- but you will find it if you just follow these instructions. Once you do find it, the relevant talk will be about the 18th blocked entry down on the page with "Fred Turner as it's faculty advisor", followed by a list of some chapters.Jonesbig (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait, the article may have been moved to this link- if this link doesn't post either, just follow the web search directions listed above to find the article: http://www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?www.dailyillini.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&displayArticleComments&display=all&&ustory_id=96b212c-3490-4727-87a9-a85c3321d3c0#7b10f797-e299-4937-9931-a88998b72f33e Jonesbig (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

JUST FOLLOW SEARCH DIRECTIONS, it is too hard to get the link to pop up.Jonesbig (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Archive?

This talk page is growing rather long; would anyone object if I archived part of it? The last week seems most relevent to current conversation.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)