Talk:Craps

Dice Control

http://wizardofodds.com/craps/crapsapx3.html The (reputable) webmaster of popular casino-game-information site "wizardofodds" conducted an experiment where they found it was atleast somewhat (scientifically) probable that "dice control" could exist.

Alleged Systems

Any material referring to alleged systems (especially if it contains a link to a website) should be 86ed. There aren't any perpetual motion machines, and there aren't any craps systems that give an advantage to the player.

The writeup made it clear the material was a hoax, and I believe the fact that other sources have been repeating the false material makes it worth mention in an encyclopedic work. Shall we also delete hoax, Crop_circle, and Loch_Ness_Monster? FWIW, I am unaffiliated with the site linked and included it merely because I thought it relevant. Kat 20:56 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are lots of bogus systems out there, and I could not tell from reading your verbiage whether or not you were trying to advertise the site mentioned. The site had one of these long shaggy dog stories that attempted to explain away why their system hasn't yet bankrupted the casinos, kind of like how fad-diet books have to explain away why you will lose weight while eating all the Haagen Dazs you want. The craps-system site could possibly have been persuasive to some, and I fear for such people if they get steered to a scam site. My feeling is they are better off ignored. But if you feel strongly about your language, please feel free to put it back if you like. Mbstone 04:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I will add it back shortly. Please feel free to edit it if you believe the wording is inappropriate. Kat 19:08 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

I have a problem with the text on Quatloos that the system "gives the player an advantage over the house." It doesn't. I don't understand why Quatloos appears to debunk other scams and then claim that there is such a thing as a winnind craps system.

Question about odds during coming out

The page says, "There are a total of 36 possible combinations. So on the come out roll here are 9 ways to win, 4 ways to lose and (36-13=) 23 ways to start a point." If I understand correctly, the player wins on the "come out roll" by rolling 7 or 11. There are 6 ways to get 7 and 2 ways to get 11 which makes 8 ways to win, not 9 as the article claims. There are 24 ways to start a point. Either the odds calculation is a mistake or a subtle aspect of the game still needs to be described. Peter Hendrickson

Yes there are 8/36 ways to win on the come-out roll.--155.144.251.120 03:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Crabs"?

Is there any source for the statement that the game was formerly known as crabs?

• The American Heritage Dictionary and the Encyclopedia Brittanica both mention that craps is derived from the Louisiana French word "crabs".Rray 03:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks, although what the AH (online version) says is: "Louisiana French, game of hazard, from English crabs, lowest throw in hazard, from crab1, or crab2." Which does not say that the game was ever known as "crabs."

Crapping out on 3

Traditionally I believe the shooter crapped out by rolling a 2 (snake eyes) or a 12 (box cars) on the first roll. I believe it was the casinos that added 3 as a crap-out, thus doubling the odds of crapping out in their favor. Am I wrong?

Most definatly wrong. With only craps on 2 or 12 the bet would have had a player advantage. Its possibly that 3 wasn't a crap-out when 11 wasn't a win on a come-out coll. But I doupt it.

Number of dice???

Hi, I'm working on a translation for the German wiki right now. I noticed, that there is no hint so far, that you need TWO dice to play craps. Some native might add that information soon. Cheers. 80.130.73.175 19:15, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You could also mention that in casinos, you need Five (5) dice to play.

Note: Only two dice are used during play of the hand. Five dice are offered to each new shooter to choose only two from, after the previous player sevens-out. From those five dice offered, the new player selects only two to play with (using ONLY one hand to pick the two selected), and the stickman then retrieves the other three dice for non-use during the game. He puts it back into a "dice bowl" and out of play. When the next player sevens-out, he then add the two game dice back to the out of play dice, and presents five dice to the next new player, to again select two from. Dan Lubin.

Misleading / contradictory information

In the first paragraph of 'The basic game', it is stated that: "On the first roll of the two dice... the shooter wins by rolling either a 7 or 11." But then, two sentences later: "To win, the point number must be rolled before a 7... If a 7 is rolled before the point number, the shooter has sevened-out and loses."

It can't be both, so which is it?

Also, I am assuming that the 'shooter' is the person rolling the dice? It isn't explicity stated by the text. TACD 04:39, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Of course it can be both. When the shooter (the player rolling the dice) throws the first roll (and only the first roll), a pass line bet wins on a 7 or 11; looses on a 2, 3, or 12; or sets the point with any other number. After a point is set, a pass line bet wins if the point is rolled again, or looses if a 7 is rolled; if neither is rolled, the shooter rolls again, until either the point is hit or the shooter sevens out. So, the first quote is correct for the first roll, and the second quote is correct for the second and later rolls.

There is no requirement that the shooter make a pass line bet, and when I'm rolling I normally bet on the don't pass line, so saying when the shooter wins or looses isn't as simple as the paragraph states. Gentgeen 06:07, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My edits

Were quick and dirty but added some important info and some needed corrections.

Please move them around as you see fit. Foodmarket 03:19, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bias?

This article seems to only deal with craps within the context of a casino. I don't know anything about the game, but I'm pretty sure it's widely played in much more informal settings.

Currently, craps is almost exclusively played in casinos. Up until the 1960's, many "after hour joints" (informal gambling halls) had crap games for wagering, and was very popular in that form until the 1960's. Law enforcement, the increasing popularity of casino play, the difficulty of finding talented dice dealers to run games, and the introduction of legalized casino gambling in New Jersey in the 1970's essentially did away with such "informal" crap games. When craps is played informally (for learning, socializing or dealer practice) the same "layout" or betting cloth is often used, displaying the same bets available in a casino. (Source: John Scarne's "The New Complete Guide") Dan Lubin.

Confusing

I don't know anything about craps and came to this article hoping to find out. However the article is very very confusing and disorganised. It's clearly written from the perspective of someone who knows the game and assumes the people he/she's writing to also knows. This is no use to someone like me. Rather than explaining the game in clear terms, it rambles out about all sorts of terms without really explaining them.

- I'm a casino dealer, and the game was explained very well by the author. We describe it the same way when we teach new players. Now keep in mind, craps is a fairly complex game in comparison to other wagering games such as blackjack, and the author also described the source of the game's odds, dice probability, and "house edge" in order to be very complete. He also described table protocol. As a casino dealer, I feel the author was right on the money in describing the game, though it is complicated. It takes a bit longer to pick it up than most games, especially if a complete description, including dice probability is offered, in order to be complete. Dan Lubin.

-- As someone recently new to Craps I can understand the confusion. Always remember the game is as complex as you want to make it through how many betting choices you want to take advantage of. I recommend to any novice as I was to start with a single bet (i.e. the Pass Line) and then slowly expand to learn new betting techniques as you get comfortable. With that said I think this article is very well written with logical examples. Reading about how to play craps is difficult in itself, when I just decided to go try it and experiement and watch other people I learned much faster. --Clint 6/27/06

I will be attempting to re-write this acrticle in my lunch break, because it is shocking. Just get anyone who knows nothing about craps to read it, and they still won't know. You really have to no know anything about craps to understand how badly it is written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.144.251.120 (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Barred Craps

How about an explanation before talking about it... I know what it means (usually a 12, but specifically it's what's printed on the table on the don't come line that pushes a don't pass bet)

The don't pass wager should reflect the variations of bar 2 (which is mathematically identical to bar 12) and bar 3 (which is not). I can't think of good text to use in the article, or I'd make the edit myself. 141.199.102.30 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Expected Loss Chart

I think the chart depicting amounts lost per 1000 bets of $10 is misleading. The same loss amounts could be stated for 20 bets of $500 or 1 bet of $10,000.

"Do it the hard way"???

RE: This line: "The terms 'on a roll', 'crapshoot', 'no dice', 'crap out', 'Snake Eyes' and 'do it the hard way' all trace their origins to the game of craps."

The first five I can agree with, but to attribute "do it the hard way" to Craps sounds extremely suspicious to me. The use of the word "hard" to indicate "difficult" surely predates the game of Craps.

Street Craps

I know nothing about craps except that there's a stereotype that it's played on the streets of at least America, by incredibly poor people in inner cities. I see it daily in San Francisco, and was hoping to find out about it. I find it highly annoying, that although many people associate craps with African-Americans and crack, and even though it is a stereotype, the article talks nothing of this piece. this should be in the opening paragraph, even if to refute this. More evidence that Wikipedia has nothing to do with reality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.101.1.131 (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps the mention was avoided in an effort to keep from perpetuating racial stereotypes, eh? Particularly those that aren't very well founded. I'm not sure that many people today associate the game with the stereotypes you mention.Realkyhick 21:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Odds

Can someone please example 'odds' bet. Where exactally do you place chips on the table for an odds bet? I can't find ANYWHERE that actually tells you this. For someone who knows nothing about the game this article is no where near enough to construct and play the game.--Dacium 10:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Your assumption is that this encyclopedia article should be enough to construct and play the game, but that's not necessarily the case. Rray 14:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Its not that article specifically should, but it at least should explain bets. For example if someone red this article and went to a casino they would still likly have almost no idea how to get odds. --155.144.251.120 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Adding this information to the article would be a great way to contribute to the Wikipedia. I'd encourage either of you to research the information and add it to the article along with the appropriate citations. That's what the Wikipedia is all about. (i.e., rather than asking someone else to solve the problem you perceive, be bold and solve it yourself. That's what makes the Wikipedia cool.) Rray 00:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

What is up with you? First you say its not a manual and shouldn't have the information. Then you say he should add the information. We obviously know what Wikipedia is about so why make all these filler responses? Anyway I am in the process of fixing the article.--Dacium 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

My original point was that the article was fine without that information. (That doesn't imply that it can't be added; sorry if I was unclear.)

My second point was that if you or he think that the article would benefit from the additional information, than you or he should add it instead of complaining about it and/or asking someone else to add it on the talk page. Rray 15:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think it would have been added if we knew the information? And the article was not fine without the information. How can an article about a game be fine when it doesn't even show how to play it??--155.144.251.120 05:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Not that the article should obfuscate because the casinos do, but it's worth mentioning that one of the few if not only no-house-edge bets in the entire casino has no markings or other indications that would let the player know he could make it. at any rate, to bet free odds on an established point, you had to have made a pass line bet first, and then you place the chips between you and the pass line bet, right behind the pass line. to bet free odds on an established come number, you toss your chips to the dealer and say "odds on the [number]". 207.29.128.130 15:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Image Craps.jpg

The title image has incorrect copyright. Some one correct it, or replace it with a better image. Right now it looks like ripped off some casino webpage.--æn↓þæµß¶-ŧ-¢ 09:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

fire bet clarification

What if the shooter establishes five points, and then sevens out on the next roll?

Does the player who wagered fire bet get to keep his 250:1 winnings?

The reason I'm asking is cause the player cannot take the bet off until he wins or loses. But since he won at the fourth and fifth roll (25:1 and 250:1 payout, but only gets credited the 250:1), does he have to specify whether to collect the winnings (and forfeit chances of winning the next bigger payout), or does he/she have to leave it there (but will collect highest winnings after seven out)?

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Il consiglieri (talk • contribs) 02:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

It goes on how many different pionts have been established and made before the seven out. No one gets paid until a seven out occurs. So yes he would get 250:1 instead of 25:1. You don't loose the bet going for another roll, you aren't paid until a seven out occurs.--155.144.251.120 03:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Table Layout

Anybody agree that the article would benefit from a table layout. --ROASTYTOAST 21:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

True odds and payoffs

What does everyone want with regard to the odds table? Should I have different odds for win, loss, push, and all the different payouts on the multiple payoff bets? For instance, on the don't pass, the odds of winning are 1031:949 (which is where the house edge comes in), but the odds of not losing are 244:251 (better than even chance). The odds of rolling the 12 are of course 35:1. CjPuffin  19:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

They should all be based on return for 1 unit bet. ie. what do you get on average for 1 unit bet, compared to what they should pay you. In other words because tie happens 35:1 the true odds (1:1 given odds) should actually be higher than 1:1--Dacium 00:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Don’t Play the PASS LINE or COME

I make many trips to Nevada, either Laughlin or Vegas. I really don’t care about house edge or percentages. When I play craps, I don’t play for percentages, I play for MONEY. Money is the only thing that counts and if you take a good look at the percentages, every chart would tell you play the pass line and come. WRONG. What’s important to understand is your initial bet for a point only pays even money. If you take into account the money invested on a point and full odds, you would be surprised of your actual winnings compared to the amount of money you put up. Haven’t most of you noticed that table odds have changed to 3, 4, 5 everywhere? The reason for this is to decrease the money paid out on points and increase the house edge. You would be better off placing the number. You would actually see a higher payout on a place bet than you would on the money you bet on the pass line plus odds.

Let me give you an example and then tell me its better to play the pass line or come. Now, I have to use odd numbers for this example (apples to apples) in order to show you the money. Let’s say your playing at a crap table with 3, 4, 5 odds. You make a $13 pass line bet and the point is 4. Now, you decide to take maximum odds. So, at 3 times the 4 or 10, the most you can put behind your bet is $39 ($13x3). You now have a total investment of $52 on the table hoping for the 4. The guy next to you didn’t make a pass line bet, but decides that the shooter is going to hit the 4. So, he places the point and tells the dealer to buy the 4 for a $50 bet. If a seven is rolled, you lost $52 while the guy next to you lost $50. But what if the 4 hits? Watch this. You win your initial $13, plus $78 for your full odds (2:1) for a total profit of $91. The guy next to you has to pony up $2 for casino commission. (Actually 4% because I have never seen a casino ask anyone for $.50 to reach the 5% commission) He now has invested the same amount of money as you, $52. The dealer hands him $100. That is not the same as yours and both of you have invested the same amount of money for the same number – only to see the other have $9 more than you.

You can take the same principle, with any dollar amount at 3x odds (for place or come on 4) and bet the same amount on the 4 or 10, and even if you DON’T BUY the number, the place bet will always payout more in profits. The same principle still puts a place bet on a 6 or 8 with higher profits than Coming with 5x odds on a 6 or 8. The 4 or 9 is even when it relates to profits on point plus 4x odds. I can talk about many examples or variations about why these charts do not tell the entire truth about total money bet and the actual amount paid out in winnings, but then I’d have to write a book. Sincerely, Frank.

WRONG. You are totally ignoring the money won the pass line bet. On the come out roll the pass line bet of $13 is twice as likely to win instantly than it is to loose instantly. The $9 more (actually $7 because you forgot to take the commission) is more than made back by money won on come out rolls.

8/36 come out rolls the line bet wins $13 (8/36 to win $13)

4/36 come out rolls the line bet looses $13 (4/36 to loose $13)

3/36 the point is 4 or 10, and 1/3 of the time win 3x odds (3/36*1/3 win $91)

3/36 the point is 4 or 10, with 2/3 of the time loose 3x odds, (3/36*2/3 loose $52)

4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 2/5 of the time win 4x odds (win $91)

4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 3/5 of the time loose 4x odds (loose $65)

5/36 the point is 6 or 8, with 5/11 of the time to win 5x odds (win $91)

5/36 the piont is 6 or 8, with 6/11 of the time to loose 5x odds (loose $78)

You can work it out to find that 100% total the result is -0.18 return. Now compare to just taking the point number:

12/36 no point comes. you dont even bet 1/3 of the come out rolls.

3/36 point 4 or 10, 1/3 to win $100 minus say $2 commision (win $98)

3/36 point 4 or 10, 2/3 to loose $50

4/36 point 5 or 9, 2/5 to win $75 minus say $2 commision (win $73)

4/36 point 5 or 9, 3/5 to loose $50

5/36 point 6 or 8, 5/11 to win $60 minus say $2 commsiion (win $58)

5/36 point 6 or 8, 6/11 to loose $50

The result is a loss of -0.54 return. Even if you exclude the 1/3 of the time where you don't bet the result is still -0.36. You loose money twice as fast betting that way compared to betting the pass line. Any PC simulator will easily prove this.--Dacium 00:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning to put up a list of dice calls

Perhaps under "etiquette", or else in its own section along with the simple table that's currently there.

I'm thinking of a list of the various silly phrases that are thrown out by players and dealers in response to the various rolls. e.g.,

2 + 5 is rolled... "cinco dos, adios"

6 + 5... "yo"

3 + 3... "the kitchen roll"

off the table... "too tall to call", "too high to qualify"

etc

I must admit, I'm a newbie here, this would be my first wikipedia contribution. But I think it's a good one, I have a long list of these fun shout-outs.  :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baronworm (talk • contribs) 14:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Too vulgar

Isn't this a vulgar name for a game? Jonghyunchung (talk) 02:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't Pass / Don't Come odds

In the bet Odds section, the actual odds are listed as 244:251... Unless I'm crazy, this cannot be correct as a payoff of 1 to 1 would imply a positive expectation game (which is false). 244:251 ignores that 12 is a draw.

Shouldn't the correct odds be fair odds be P(lose) / P(win) which would be 976/949

background math:

• P(win) = 1/36 + 2/36 + P(!MakePoint) = 949 / 1980
• P(lose) = 6/36 + 2/36 + P(MakePoint) = 976 / 1980
• P(MakePoint) = 2 * [(3/36) * (1/3) + (4/36) * (2/5) + (5/36) * (5/11)] = 134/495
• P(!MakePoint) = 2* [(3/36) * (2/3) + (4/36) * (3/5) + (5/36) * (6/11)] = 196/495

or am I missing something? Mgunn (talk) 10:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Note P(draw) = (1980 - 949 -976) / 1980 = 55/1980 = 1/36 Mgunn (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm just going to fix it. -- Mgunn (talk) 20:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)