Talk:Free jazz

Coltrane

I would want to check my memory of the dates here, but I've got a strong feeling that there's something funny about putting "John Coltrane" in that list. He's well known as a free player -- and justly so, arguably he was the best, and has never been equaled despite many attempts -- but he wasn't really in the first wave of innovation like the other three names in that list (Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler). I'm pretty sure Coltrane was still doing Bop when they started stepping outside the lines. And in fact, Coltrane was strongly influenced by John Gilmore's playing (Gilmore was one of the main guys in the Sun Ra Arkestra). So if you do include Coltrane in the list, then why not Gilmore? But then things start getting unwieldly if the list gets that long, and it could be you're going to get still more people coming by adding their favorites.

Anyway, I'm contemplating a re-write of the introduction there... if anyone cares, let me know if you think this reasoning sounds stupid. -- Doom

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Styles, names, labels, lofts

Sure, rewrite it a bit: I think the description of the music itself is pretty good (though it conflates too many different styles, I think: for instance, it's important to distinguish between Ornette Coleman's quite regularly pulsed music of the 1950s & 1960s, with drummers like Blackwell & Higgins, & the more "wavelike" rhythms invented by Sunny Murray with Cecil Taylor's band). But there's no historical depth here. Coltrane, yes, was a slightly older player who came to free jazz under the influence of younger musicians like Ayler & Coleman.

Yeah, I think there should be more names mentioned here, perhaps: Don Cherry, the many important drummers & bassists, Pharoah Sanders, Sun Ra, Paul Bley, Archie Shepp, Sam Rivers, for starters. Something on Tristano's early experiments with freedom, maybe. Something on the Jimmy Giuffre Trio, too (as the main branch-line for a "cool", more abstract free-jazz, in its way just as influential). & then maybe something on the two key 1960s labels--ESP & Impulse!. & then there's the loft scene of the 1970s, leading into the current scene--surely players like Charles Gayle, William Parker, Mat Maneri, Matt Shipp, David S Ware, &c deserve a reference. I like thick description, as long as the entry doesn't just become a flabby list. --Ndorward

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Eric Dolphy

Finally got around to moving John Coltrane out of the list of "pioneers", calling him the best known example instead. Simple enough change, I don't know why it didn't occur to me before.

Since I brought up the possible problem of people padding out that list with their favorites, someone has come by and added Eric Dolphy's name... and unless I'm missing some chapters of the Eric Dolphy story, I suspect he should be regarded as a member of the second wave, rather than a pioneer.

It probably would be good to try and do a more detailed historical time-line... And I agree that it's best to provide descriptions of an artists music rather than just a list of names. For example, the New Wave music entry seems a little too light weight with it's long, alphabetic list of band names. -- Doom 19:14, Mar 10, 2004 (UTC)

• I agree that Dolphy is not the best choice for a list of pioneers of free jazz, and probably shouldn't stand as a representative of the genre at all. He played over chord changes for almost all of his recorded career. While he did aspire to play with Cecil Taylor, and participated in free pieces by Coleman and Coltrane, Mingus would never have hired him if he was known for playing "free." So, while he's worthy of mention, maybe since the article is so short right now, leave him out.

Racial/social aspect

Would a section on the racial politics of free jazz be welcome? It seems right now that the entry is pretty well-established in the directions of theory and personnel, but is lacking any mention of what bassist Richard Davis calls the "kiss my black ass" factor. Many of the important early free jazz collectives were explicitly afro-centric (AACM, for example) and while Coleman's quartet was multi-racial, titles like "This Is Our Music" make certain things clear. The 60's were, of course, the decade of the most heightened racial tension in the US, and many free jazz musicians found that they were treated better, and their music more appreciated, in Europe. This could be a lead-in point to discuss the differences (musical and social/historical) between American and European free jazz (not to mention Japanese, etc). I'll start working on this, comment here if you object or wish to redirect the section.

Could it be worth putting more on the social-collective aspects into this section? I'm thinking here of Jazz Composers Guild, AACM and 70s Loft movt in the US? This collective creation of the settings for playing seem important in their correspondence with the collective creation of the music itself? And it is a further factor in the European music: FMP, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, London Musicians Collective, etc. --AllyD 19:07, 30 May 2005

Agreed: the racial thing is what led free jazz to be created... Has anyone read Carles and Comolli's "Free Jazz/Black Power"? The 'Philosophies' section could be much bigger... Ciacchi 00:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Ornette & "Free Jazz"

Didn't I read that the album "Free Jazz" was given its title by someone at Atlantic without Ornette knowing about it, and that Ornette himself didn't even like the name? It's a small point but if others concur then I think it's worth correcting it.

Ornette 15:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Opening sentence

Is anyone else bothered by the nebulous & rather misleading opening sentence: "Free jazz is a movement of jazz music characterized by diminished dependence on formal constraints." It seems to me neither accurate nor helpful. Free jazz replaced many of the traditional features of jazz (especially those established by bebop and hard bop) with new ones. (In some cases these "new" features were actually a resurrection of earlier jazz values in a new context--for instance, the collective polyphony of early jazz bands.) ND 14:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Meter

How free is meter in free jazz. does it resemble Metis folk music in having a steady rythm rather then a meter?--User: Knoss

I doubt it sounds much like Metis folk music, but get yourself a copy of Ascension & see what you think.... --ND 19:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the term pulse is frequently used to describe the time structures in free jazz. ---Sluzzelin 23:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What I wanted to know was if free jazz generaly has bars or an irregular beat.--User: Knoss

Most of what you hear in free jazz isn't notated, yet composed themes or transcriptions of solos in free jazz are sometimes written with bar intersections, because partition makes it easier to read. But the bars don't necessarily represesent a fixed meter or time segment. Free jazz can make use of regular beats, irregular beats and no beat at all, which is when the pulse can become relevant. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but I feel that pulse is a bit too strong in a lot of free cases - look at the work of some of the recent New Orleans guys, for example, or the Euro scene, or some of Masada's works. Free Jazz is all about destroying existing modes of music and then moving beyond them through collective improvisation, so even overall pulse may be a bit strong. 129.81.180.29 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

guess thats why it's free... lol --User: Knoss

Samples

Hey could someone get audio samples of some standard free jazz music? Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 18:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's recent enough as a movement that it's still under copyright. Though there are sites like Church Number Nine that post copyrighted free jazz recordings. --ND 12:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Instruments

Previously, the instrument list listed only sax, trombone, guitar and drums. i'm no free jazz expert but what free jazz i've heard has definitley had piano (Cecil Taylor, Paul Bley) and double bass. If anyone has any objection to this addition, change it but at least give a reason. Glassbreaker5791 21:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)