Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NASIOC

NASIOC

NASIOC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

I have attempted to previously place this as a PROD, but the article creator user:RCIM wanted to dispute this, stating that a internet forum dressed as a car club is notable because 1) it has been in existence since 1999, 2) 140,000 members, these of which wouldn't have to pay a penny to join, 3) it boasts of being the largest, for a national club, it will be. All in all I can't see why is this organization being anywhere notable. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 15:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete unless sourced to show significance. Claims of "this number is large" count for nothing at all. We can only have an encyclopedia article on this topic if sufficient sources have covered it. The article contains no useful sources at all, right now. Friday (talk) 16:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. No demonstration of significance and I'd be surprised if any could be found. Currently fails WP:ORG guidelines, and is really just a puff-piece. --DeLarge (talk) 16:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. NASIOC.com is currently listed as the 38th largest message board in existence at www.big-boards.com. The membership exceeds 166,550, as indicated on big-boards.com. It is extremely significant as the largest North American Subaru Club. Agree that the article needs some work, but the existence of the article is not trivial. Cardomain article featuring NASIOC.com: http://www.cardomain.com/features/nasioc STiSquirrel (talk) 17:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. What is the debate here? Are we arguing that NASIOC.com isn't notable or that it isn't a club? I assure you its more than just an internet forum. There are "club" meets all over the country. The locals around Detroit have been meeting weekly since October of 2002, and most have been into the brand before the forum existed. We talk about cars and help wrench on each others' cars. We go on "fun drives" as a group. We invade local autocrosses as a group. We go to dinner, go-kart racing, BBQ in my back yard, wakeboarding, skiing, etc...AS A GROUP. We know each other and keep in contact through the forums on NASIOC.com. As for notable...if notable means that you charge your members money to belong, then I guess we probably don't care to be notable. Why is money a requirement to have a club? Did you charge money in elementary school when you had your little club and hung out in the tree house? The article needs a lot of work. There is no arguement there. Don't delete it because you refuse to accept that an internet forum is a good, efficient way for a club and its members to keep in contact and plan daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly events. Scooby921 (talk) 18:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  I'm sure this is what any clubs do, does that make your club anything special from other clubs, NO. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. NASIOC.com not only has a relationship with Subaru of America, but has also had NASIOC events featured in the Subaru of America magazine DRIVE amongst others. It seems odd that without actually doing any research, people would claim it fails to meet the WP:ORG guidelines. Next time please make at least a modest effort before denigrating an organization, it will allow people to take you seriously instead of thinking you lazy and biased. That NASIOC is compared to Porsche Club in a negative way clearly shows not just a bias towards more popular and more "upscale" type clientele, but also shows a complete lack of understanding of what NASIOC does. Such elitist behavior is against what Wiki is supposed to be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomhaur04 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  What a big piece of BS you are talking. I'm not at all comparing this to the Porsche Club of America, one of the reason for nomination is the historical sense these clubs have which the nominated club is just too recent,

  These clubs I referred to is historically significant club who has its own article here, the other clubs as such are AMOC, also is Crosley Car Owners Club considered upscale, are the Mid Night Club considered upscale. As for being recognized by Subaru, Did all it take was an e-mail to their PR department to be recognize, I'm sure that is what any clubs can do. Well this clubs does what all other clubs does and does that make them historically significant? NO

  As for anything to do with the Porsche Club of America, I'm not even a member of them, plus I drive a Silvia S15 with a GP Sport bodykit which wouldn't qualify for a membership with them. So you can shove that "upscale" type clientele thing up your ass. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: "historically significant" What makes this Porsche Club historically significant? From the beginning this AfD has had a very biased and very immature tone to it. Moosato Cowbata I do not understand half of what you are typing. Your grammar is worse than my 10 year old sons. It seems to me that NASIOC has sourced itself very well. And now there's a conflict of interest tag on it? The irony is the real conflict of interest is presented by Moosato. I found out about NASIOC looking for information on Subarus, the first thing that I found was the Car and driver article, hardly insignificant. Consider that because of the inclusive and open nature of NASIOC, anyone the club has had any significance for, has also joined in to participate and share their Subaru experiences and technical knowledge with the community and the world, and Fuji Heavy Industries, the parent Company of Subaru, so therefore, many of those who would be here to defend the Wiki entry are going to be members of the club. AS for your comment about emailing the Subaru PR dept. for recognition, whether or not that is the case, you do realize that is how the Associated Press finds out about important events? Just FYI..Qcanfixit (talk) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)— Qcanfixit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Comment: "So you can shove that "upscale" type clientele thing up your ass" What a fine example of an unbiased moderator. The problem with Wikis is, someone has to be given power to moderate it. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely. This person obviously has a personal problem with NASIOC and is using Wikipedia as a forum to express his or her dislike. Did he or she get beat by a Subaru in a legal or illegal automobile competition? Did he or she go to NASIOC and get berated for posting a street racing story? Who knows?

The point is, when deciding to delete or keep an article, the burden of proof should be on those who wish to delete, not keep, and this should be a HEAVY burden. Drive space is cheap. Making Wikipedia more inclusive is better - if some "unnecessary" articles are there, so what? It's not like a paper encyclopedia that will get physically larger with more entries. The search feature will allow someone to find what they are looking for - no one has to "turn pages" past the NASIOC entry to get to what they want.

The level of emotion and the perseverance that a handful of people have toward pushing through this deletion speaks volumes. Why are they so concerned? No one doing a routine "clean up" would be so determined to delete an entry. There's more to this story. We'll probably never know.

• Going to Qcanfixit's comment, what I mean are that these clubs that I referred to have been going for a long time and this one has just being in existence since 1999, plus nobody wanted to own an Impressor at that time because any 240SX could thrash them at the traffic lights easily, well back then there was hardly any parts for these 2.5 RS. Also like many of these clubs who have articles here, does it organize its own racing series, I don't mean some drag racing series, I mean any 20 car at a time on the circuit series, I'm sure your organization don't have its own racing series. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: This entry proves that Moosato Cowabata is merely a Nissan fanboi who wants to delete this entry for personal reasons only. He started this because he doesn't like "impressors" (whatever those are) and doesn't like the Subaru IMPREZA owner's club. Speculation exists that this person had a confrontation with NASIOC members. While this may never be known, it is VERY CLEAR that this whole deletion was started as a personal vendetta, which is against the spirit and letter of Wikipedia rules. Does Wikipedia enforce their most important rules, or is everyone only concerned about pedantic discussions about "relevance" or "reference quality"? There should be action taken against this person for using Wikipdeia for his or her own personal agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.156.2.34 (talk) 21:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• LOL Don't make me laugh, I have never been a member of your stupid club, I have never had a confrontation with anybody in that club, the only club members I have met are are those here who nominated keep on this vote because somebody informed it on your forum therefore you all just turn up and vote keep. Well you all do what car fanbois do, like what one editor said, I could even compare you all to the soccer hooligans, well its my soccer team lost, lets not grieve, lets stage a riot. Plus I never disliked IMPREZA at all, plus what is wrong with stating my preference to Lancer Evos, you just do what all fanbois do and accuse me of having a grudge against this club which is a biggest piece of nonsence I know of.

• Comment: Yet the Porsche Club offers no sources to prove this information you are presenting. Furthermore, you are correct, when the site started Subaru had a very small footprint in the motor enthusiast community, and I credit NASIOC for building up the name of Subaru by establishing a community for people who drive or rally or race these cars to share mechanical information and sources for parts. Today is very different for Subaru in America thanks largely to NASIOC. And that Mr Cowabata is very significant and note worthy. Thank you for proving my point.Qcanfixit (talk) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)— Qcanfixit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment: Guys, you might as well stop recruiting people from your club to come in here and say "keep this". This is not a vote. Unless reliable sources have covered this club in a nontrivial way, it's probably going to get deleted. Your best bet for saving the article is to try to source it. Friday (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: Would Subaru of America's own DRIVE magazine be considered reliable? http://www.subarudrive.com/02_01_spring/NewEnglandImprezaClub.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomhaur04 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC) — Boomhaur04 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  It's enough to satisfy me that this club exists. However we still know very little about the club. Maybe there could be a "fandom" section in the Subaru article or something? This might warrant a brief mention there. Friday (talk) 18:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  Its just an advertisement for any old car clubs, every publications coming from manufacturers will always have some sections about car clubs, does this make your club aything special from other clubs, NO. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: NASIOC has actually spawned numerous periodicals of its own. See The Monkey's Trunk: http://www.themonkeystrunk.com/ and Periodic Review of NASIOC: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=166147584STiSquirrel (talk) 18:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: any clubs will have their own periodicals, does that make them special . Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: It just isn't worth it to argue with you. You are slowly contradicting yourself, but you'll argue your point until everyone gets tired of listening to the village idiot and lets you win. Go ahead, have the entry deleted. Someone will start a new one the next day. Not only is NASIOC far different from your belief, but we're persistent bastards as well! Scooby921 (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• When did I ever contradict myself, when, you ask me
• Comment: CarDomain referred to NASIOC.com as "the premier Subaru Impreza community on the web." http://www.cardomain.com/features/nasioc I believe that does imply that it is special. 131.182.110.109 (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• is it because it is free, it is because it was the first club to deal with Impressors, I would join if I had a Impressor, but I think Lancer Evos are way better. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 20:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
• comment* More proof that this Moosato Cowabata started this deletion because he or she doesn't like "Impressors," (whatever those are) and wants the entry for the North American Suabaru IMPREZA Owners CLub deleted. The "top" Wikipedia rules all state that Wikipedia is not to be abused in this manner. Why is this person allowed to do this? If I deleted the "Ford" article because my engine blew up, I'd be warned and possibly banned. No one will answer the question: Does Wikipedia enforce their most important rules, or is everyone only concerned about pedantic discussions about "relevance" or "reference quality"? I think Wikipdeia needs to move away from this cliquey, picky, "lets find a reason to delete THAT" mentality and be more inclusive. Again, what is the harm in allowing this article and others like to to remain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.156.2.34 (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• So it's you who are accusing me of disliking Subarus and all this BS what all car fanbois do (they all go and accuse people of disliking a particular car for any reason). That nickname "Impressor" came from a friend who used to one. It came from that he never bother to pronounce it properly, he always call his car "Impressor" and insists we all call it that. Personally, there is nothing wrong with it staying but I don't think that this is any special from any others for it to be here with additionally that you all just do this fanboy thing, rally around and make stupid claims that this club is somewhat notable, using some lameass reason if you can like all fanboi editors do. Not to mention that you have done the most honorable thing and vandalized the PCA article, well if you have the guts, why don't you nominate that for AfD if you don't think that club is any special from all others. Also me mentioning Lancer Evos just got you throwing your toys out of your prams didn't it. I said there is nothing wrong with Imprezas, its just that I prefer Lancer Evos, not to mention that I wouldn't swop it for my Silvia. Moosato Cowabata (talk) 13:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, whatever the merits of the community to its members, it seems to fail web notability guidelines. --Dhartung | Talk 23:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment:As a group we understand that the page does not exactly follow the guidelines but now we have been given two guidelines first the WP:ORG guidelines and second web notability guidelines. How are we expected to update the entry to follow the guidelines if the community does not give us clear information on what guidelines to follow. As you can see we have already been working on editing the page in order to conform to the guidelines but it makes it difficult when we do not have clear guidelines to follow. Again to reiterate what has been said before, NASIOC serves more than just its members. It serves the entire Subaru community as a whole, it participates in philanthropic charities to the degree of thousands of dollars and has been published in many articles.Cavafox (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)— Cavafox (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep: It should be noted also that when one puts the search term "Subaru" into Google, NASIOC does appear on the first page of results.Manarius 02:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)— Manarius (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep References meet WP:N in my opinion. Not a lot of blogs get mainstream press, but this one has (though fairly minor, but more than "in passing") Hobit (talk) 02:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment And it is a quite well written article at this point. Not a big issue in an AfD, but... Hobit (talk) 12:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Agree with Hobit that this meets WP:N, and it appears that the article has been updated recently to add references to meet guidelines. Not sure why this is AfD. Beethoven05 (talk) 14:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

  On those references.. I just quickly looked at a couple of them, and saw no evidence that they mentioned this club at all. Friday (talk) 14:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Could you please list the References that don't mention NASIOC? Thanks. FreakBurrito (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• I admit to only hunting down about half the links, but those all did more than just mentioned it. Hobit (talk) 03:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• Running through them in order (see NASIOC#References):

1. "Florida Department of State" verifies that the organization was incorporated. This does not establish notability.
2. "Big-boards.com" supports claim of notability by showing the site to be the fourth largest English language cars forum/message board. Nevertheless it doesn't seem to meet the notability criteria of WP:WEB or WP:ORG, and none of the three sites which are larger than NASIOC have a WP entry.
3. "Car and Driver" is an Impreza review. Can't see any mention of NASIOC.
4. "Road and Track" As "Car & Driver" above.
5. "CarDomain" a single paragraph blurb about the club on a quasi-social networking site (think Facebook/MySpace, but with cars) which doesn't even have a WP entry of its own. Not nearly sufficient by itself to establish notability.
6. "Drive Magazine, Version 3.2" supports claim of notability but is associated with the subject. In a magazine published by Subaru, an article about a club based around ownership of Subaru products. Therefore falls short as a reliable source.
7. "48 Hours of Tri-State" Primary source. merely verifies that the 48H exists, does not demonstrate notability.
8. "Colin McRae Official Website" The official site of a person mentioned in the article. Does nothing for notability. Not even sure what it's there for, to be honest; the wikilink to Colin McRae is all that's needed.
9. "MarkAndRoger.com" As "Colin McRae" above.
10. "Lovell/Freeman Memorial Decals". A forum post from the NASIOC website? The worst of the lot as far as violating citation guidelines go. Don't use primary sources, don't use message boards, etc etc.
11. "CanadianDriver.com" Another Impreza review. Mentions three websites in passing at the end of the article as online resources, one of which is NASIOC. Article is not about NASIOC, which is what the notability criteria demands.
12. "Drive Magazine, Spring 2002" Same as before, a magazine published by Subaru doing articles about Subaru owners' clubs is not independent.
13. "CarDomain, NASIOC Interview" As before, CarDomain is as reliable as source as FaceBook or MySpace.

If you really stretched the bounds of notability as far as you possibly could, I'd say #2 & #11 would be OK to emphasize notability, but only if you had established it in the first place with a proper source. Meeting WP:V better, but not WP:NOTE, so not changing my "delete" despite the article expansion. Regards, --DeLarge (talk) 10:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'd say some of the above arguments are a bit extreme. First of all, discarding a publication because that publication covers a topic related to the article seems odd. Do we discount a movie review site when dealing with movies? That Subaru (a significant company) feels that NASIOC is worth a mention (and an article) says something. Those articles, IMO, establish notability. The fact that CanadianDriver wrote a paragraph about the car group also adds to notability. That other groups listed on Big-boards.com don't have an article is irrelevant and goes back to OTHERTHINGSDONTEXIST. The point is this group is quite large. That NASIOC had a successful fundraiser for a non-profit also provides a hint of notability (and that the fundraiser was covered in a local publication). Hobit (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete: Although I question Mr Cow's claims of significance and the amount of passion that is going on here, maybe we car enthusiasts are a passionate lot. Heading straight into my nomination, as I have assessing the article, there are still some issues with this article, post nomination edit wise, it still has this promotional tome to it which needs trimming. Once this is trimmed, there are very little to be worth saving. In short, this article is written to look like a promotional site. There are people who needs to be reminded that this is an encyclopedia, not another website and I see this club as having so much in common with other clubs, as in members' benefit, it has a magazine, outing, its own shows and a lot which my old club also has. Willirennen (talk) 15:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

  What is the difference between promote and inform? Could you please provide some examples of this "promotional tone"? or perhaps WP:BOLD and remove them yourselves so we can include them in a tone that is informative and not promotional? Thanks! FreakBurrito (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. —Willirennen (talk) 15:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
• Delete: I can see the amount of passion going on, these car fanboy types are just like English football hooligans, they always argue why their car and anything about their club is better than anything else (judgmental comments optional), well I used to be one of them until I got married. Also neither of the keep and delete party are capable of having some peace over this nominations including the nominator, Mr Cow. Not to mention that if either of you lose this argument, you all will probably start a riot on the internet like they do in outside football stadiums. Going to my nominations, personally I can't see what is so special about this club from all others including that of mine, so in that case why not just have this article deleted, but also all others including Porsche Club of America, that will keep the peace. Garth Bader (talk) 10:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: I just don't understand the mentality of "look for a reason to exclude." Why not KEEP this entry as well as the Porsche Club of America entry? How is Wikipedia harmed by inclusion? Wikipedia is supposed to be about allowing everyone to contribute, but I find that there is a core group of die hard "wikipedians" who will not tolerate articles they don't like, or edits to "their" articles. These "core people" seem to spend all of their wakign hours on wikipedia, deleting edits and articles that they don't like. To repeat myself, there should be a heavy burden of proof required to DELETE, not KEEP. Wikipedia should err on the side of INCLUSION. This deletion was started for personal reasons from someone with an axe to grind. The request to delete is thus invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.156.2.34 (talk) 12:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: I won't bother saying 'delete' or 'keep' since it doesn't seem to matter to those in control, but I will offer this point of view. I find it very odd NASIOC is being penalized because they have an active forum. It is definitely a club, as their countless organized get-togethers over the last 9 years have demonstrated. Beyond just being "a" club, it is the largest Subaru-centric club in the world. I believe that makes it notable to a very large number of people; but I can see why somebody who does not own a subaru would have no interest in it. Likewise, I have no interest in many of the great entries on Wikipedia. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. Further, there has been mention of the club not being around long enough - but I ask, how would it even make sense for the club to have existed before the Impreza existed in North America? Nobody defending NASIOC here in the Articles has used the argument "Impreza is a good car therefore. . ." and yet I see people casting delete votes and citing that as one of the reasons. In closing, I just think it's a bit twisted that an ONLINE encyclopedia would have anything against a club that chooses to distribute and communicate via the web. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhluhr (talk • contribs) 12:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
• Delete: Seems to be just a car club for people who own a particular flavor of car, so logically, any such person can join. Lara Dalle (talk) 17:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Anyone can just as easily own a Porsche and pay that group some fee, and they can just as easily join that club. How hard or how easy it is to join should not be the issue. how easy is it to make changes to an Wiki entry? And if you want to talk about notability, NASIOC has been around longer than Wikipedia. Why the discrimination? Because we are not snobs? I find that insulting, distasteful and comepletely out of line with the Wiki Policies. As I mentioned above, it is the inclusive nature of NASIOC that defines it. It made Subaru accessible. Before NASIOC Subaru was just another import with very few fans who didn't even know of each others existence. Now it's a car with a cult following. Subaru has been in America 30 years, offering AWD and now only now, is AWD being looked at as a preformance component in American rallying, and performance circles because of the information NASIOC makes available. Furthermore, I who previously had no mechanical inclinations, was able to make several small upgrades and repairs to my own Subaru, with information that was only available on NASIOC and was invited into the community with open arms and given sound advice and step by step instructions which completely removed the fear of tinkering around with my car. Qcanfixit (talk) 08:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)— Qcanfixit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic (going back to 2005 Hobit (talk) 23:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC))

• • Comment/Question I'm not sure your point is relevant. Anyone can join IEEE too. It's notable... Hobit (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)