Talk:Kilmarnock

Economic Blight, Etc.

With the deepest respect, the section on Economic Blight reintroduced by Demonblade is not NPOV and falls foul of the site rules and does not meet the normal standards of Wiki. In particular it:

- fails toplace the economic decline within an appropriate context which would, in turn, provide readers with a full understanding.

- makes value judgements regarding the quality of the 1970s regeneration efforts which, regardless of their accuracy, have no place in Wiki.

- does not properly explain the role that planning blight had in the redevelopment of Portland Street, concentrating instead on the decline it caused.

- includes unsupported assertions regarding the views of the townspeople

- contains factual errors; the HS CARS scheme for the town centre has been approved and the HLF THI scheme is due for determination shortly; it also overlooks the TCLI scheme.

Unless anyone has any substantive comments, I would intend to revert to the changes I made earlier today.

--MacLeod 15:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no doubt that the Portland Street section of town was basically a screwup for many years. While the rest of the redevelopment had met a mixed reception, some good, some bad from Kilmarnock Cross down to Titchfield Street, Portland St declined sharply. I think a number of factors contributed here. For one, the bus station used to be a busy point, when it was closed it affected passing trade. The market kept a lot of passing trade but shops declined. The area did become more unkempt looking, and the fire which levelled Bambers did nothing to help. Face it, Portland St lay essentially derelict for a number of years before the rebuilding started and the regeneration doesn't seem to have brought back any prosperity there. Douglasnicol 15:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I did try to rewrite the urban blight section regarding Portland St to be a bit more NPOV. If you don't know the place well its a bit hard to describe, but I have emphasised as well that the 'chain store makeover' is not a factor unique to Kilmarnock. Douglasnicol 11:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but the problem is that during the 70s and 80s Kilmarnock (like many former industrial towns) saw massive changes in town centre retail patterns; we need to place these issues in context to provide a npov. It seems likely to me that it would have suffered a similar fate to Titchfield Street, but we can't really let that come into ther equation.

--MacLeod 23:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think though that Portland Street suffered from a variety of factors which lead to it being derelict for so long. I don't know how much was possible bureacracy from the Council delaying things. Douglasnicol 15:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

--MacLeod 22:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)== KILMARNOCK ARTICLE DISCUSSION AREA ==

It may be helpfull if we could discuss ideas for expanding the Kilmarnock article here. Douglas Nicol has made many valuable contributions. Similarly Steven Milloy has contributed as well. If you have knowledge of Kilmarnock, perhaps about it's history or early developement, then contribute and grow the article.

It's great to see this page expanding - I'll try to add some history. In the meantime, could one of you in Kilmarnock take some pictures, maybe in sunshine? Church, Dick Institute, park, shopping centre... Mark Nesbitt 12:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the praise, one reason I have a decent knowledge of Kilmarnock, is my Mum is Kilmarnock born and still remembers much of the old layout of the town prior to development. I've also got the two books that are listed in the Further Reading category. Douglasnicol 13:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I have a digital camera. I would be willing to get out and take a few pictures. But I am not sure how to upload them and assimilate them into the page. I could email them accross to Douglas or Mark and one of you could put them on the page (If you know how). milloy6@aol.com

Hi Steven - feel free to email me pics at mark.nesbitt {at} gmail.com It's easy but somewhat time-consuming to upload and place pics, so I'm happy to divide the work. I don't know Kilmarnock so will need short captions. Assume you are happy to release pics to public domain - allows greatest flexibility in use (eg in other wikis). Thanks MarkMark Nesbitt 21:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Thats me above (digital camera). Wasn't logged in, silly me! Had some thoughts about maybe mentioning Willie Ross. Was he the Secretary of State for Scotland and Kilmarnocks MP at one time. Check your books Douglas. Contemporarily, Des Browne MP is (i think) Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I can see the possiblity for another heading here...maybe 'Politics'.--Stevenmilloy 15:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

BMK

Here's a question, I'm sure any savvy people that know Kilmarnock are aware that BMK was an acronym for Blackwood & Mortons Kilmarnock. What I'd like to know is that there was a woollen factory in Western Road run by a company called Blackwood Brothers, they also at one time owned the former mill in Kilwinning. Any connection between the two companies? Douglasnicol 21:05, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into it Douglas. I believe there is a link as you suggest.--Stevenmilloy 23:59, 4 March 2006

http://www.geographyhigh.connectfree.co.uk/prinayrskilmanockphotos.html has some great old photos.--Stevenmilloy 00:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok Mark. First sign of sunshine i will take some pictures and email them over to you - have you got broadband? --Stevenmilloy 18:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

In a discussion with a friend, i found out that there was a link between Blackwood and Morton. Around 1900 the connection was broken. Blackwood went to make yarn and Morton concentrated on building up carpet manufacturing. Information is sketchy, even though i am a former employee, so i think it will take a while to get enough solid information of a standard fit for inclusion into the main page. I'll keep digging though. --Stevenmilloy 09:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I had been wondering about that. The name of Blackwoods itself isn't the most common. Another thing, I know at one time BMK had three factories in Kilmarnock. There's the one now largely demolished in Riccarton where Safeways and Aldi etc are, the only remaining part is an office block. There's another one near the 'New Bellfield Tavern' on Queens Drive which is partly sublet to small businesses now, and there's that one that features in a pic in the link that has been given. What does that third factory do now (if anything). I also put in the info about Saxone, but I believe there is a company that still manufactures shoes in Kilmarnock near where Food Giant/Kwik Save was, though I'm not sure what they were called. Douglasnicol 18:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Douglas you are correct in what you say. However, the office block which stood empty for many years near Safeway, was demolished a couple of years ago. BMK actually had FOUR factories in Kilmarnock.

1: Burnside Street. (Safeway). 2: Riverside (Barbadoes Rd Closed Feb '05). 3: Lawson Street (Bellfield Tavern). 4: Brittania Mill (Morrisons). 5: Douglas Reyburn (Mill Street - behind Howard Arms Pub).

Site #1 produced woven. Site #2 produced woven and tufted latterly inc Reyburns as well. Site #3 Took waste and made underfelt named "Springback". Site #4 Was where the carpets were finished/despatched.

Site #5 Was wholly owned by Stoddard/BMK and supplied most of the yarn requirement. For a while after Saxone pulled out there existed a small shoe making operation, but this too dissapeared several years ago. --Stevenmilloy 20:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Any idea WHY the BMK office block was left standing for so many years after the factory was demolished? Douglasnicol 14:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Trams and other transport

Kilmarnock had a tram system which linked it to Hurlford. This is mentioned on the Hurlford page but not in any detail.

One of my local history books has details on the tram system including a map of the network. I can put in the information. Douglasnicol 23:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Good news about the trams. I'm kind of tied up (looking for a job) at the moment - may not be as 'visible' on here as of late. Will 'keep my hand in' though.--Stevenmilloy 22:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thats some basic tram info put inDouglasnicol 14:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I've also added a brief entry on the bus station. Douglasnicol 14:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

JOHN FINNIE STREET

I'm concerned that the reference to the Finnies having a say in tenants of John Finnie Street might be inaccurate. Do we have a source for it?--MacLeod 22:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have two books on Kilmarnock, the older one has quite a bit of info on the town and only mentions that the Finnies put quite a bit of financial backing into both the planning and construction of the street. There's no mention either way of their approval being needed. I would say that if anything has affected the quality of shops in John Finnie Street is that it is now very difficult for cars to park there, meaning a lot of what could otherwise be passing trade is lost, however, that's just conjecture. Douglasnicol 11:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Economic depression and urban blight, npov?

I'm worried about the content of this section:

• "This decline has its origins" -- can you justify that?
• "in a disastrous 'redevelopment'" -- what was disastrous about it, pov?
• "fine buildings make way for a 'concrete jungle'." -- pov, again??
• "old sturdy Victorian and Edwardian buildings were replaced by characterless flat roofed retail units." -- Again this doesn't seem to be neutral at all.

It seems like this only discusses one point of view and without reference. While I'm certainly no fan of Kilmarnock town centre (and I'm too young to remember the "old sturdy Victorian and Edwardian buildings") I'd like to see at least a reference for this stuff and possibly some more positive statements (if they can be made!!) about the area. OoberMick 19:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit I share these OoberMick's concerns; see also note above about the Finnies which I don't think is correct. --MacLeod 13:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

i agree - a lot of the original content of this page appears to have negative undertone. Today i renamed this section to Regeneration. I trust it is the correct term (Mccarthystumble (talk) 19:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC))

Notable People Discussion

I started this section, and would be interested to hear the other contributors viewpoints. Should the Notable people be limited to those who were born in Kilmarnock, such as Margaret McDowell and the McIllvaneys, or should it also include those who were not born there but are residents there, or have been residents? Some town entries in Wiki include famous residents, others limit it to those born there. Opinions? Douglasnicol 15:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Portland St pic

To whoever removed the Portland St pic, and left the rather snide comment, you miss the point. Portland St now may not be a main shopping street, but it WAS. The main shopping streets of Kilmarnock prior to the extensive redevelopment were Portland St, King Street and Titchfield St. People unfamiliar with the town often group them together as one street. Oh, and BTW, it wasn't me who uploaded the pic, in case you think I have an ulterior motive. I've reinserted the picture, but I've recaptioned it to make it NPOV. Douglasnicol 14:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Population

Just wondering what the source is for the population of Kilmarnock (60,000)? The East Ayrshire Council website has a pdf [1] detailing the 2001 census figures, and states a population of 43,588. Which figure is correct? AllanMcD 12:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Commute time and housing prices

Recent edits implied that the now relatively short commute time to Glasgow is having a positive impact on the housing market. Can we get that backed up with sources? Is there any historical data available on housing prices in Kilmarnock and Scotland as a whole, to provide a baseline? Also, how does the train work for commuters - is their commute time comparable to that of drivers on the 77? MrZaius^talk 19:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

My First Cult / My First Music

I have tried to add both My First Cult and My First Music on several occasions and met with at best animosity or sheer rejection. We are vital to the regeneration of music in the area and would like at least some feedback on why we are constantly excluded. If you need further information regarding our activities then we are willing to help you out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.12.20.198 (talk) 00:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Landmarks section

I'm not against this section, but in my opinion at least, it looks really untidy. It needs a few things, some clarification for one on some of the places of interest, maybe a seperate article on the Burns Monument including how it got into such a state. Secondly, something like the Clydesdale Bank, what one, there are at least two, if I remember right, Clydesdale Bank buildings, the one in Riccarton near the former Safeways, and the one one near the multi-storey carpark. Douglasnicol (talk) 14:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Douglasnicol: Point taken - now that you mention it, "shabby" is probably the most apt word, now that I look at the section with hindsight. I don't fully agree with pautting the burns monument in a separate section but perhaps it would be good to have a link to a separate section with more detail. Perhaps the same could be applied to each of The Places of Interest? (Mccarthystumble (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC))

This also relates to the merge tag, but I have to say that giving every part of the Landmark section a seperate article doesn't work, streets especially. Perhaps the Dick Institute, Burns Monument and War Memorial, but others can be a bit dodgy. Douglasnicol (talk) 09:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge tag

Kilmarnock Cross currently gives no context and little real encyclopedic info. I am suggesting that it is merged back here. I have also PRODed James Shaw Statue as being non notable - it doesn't even say who James Shaw was. Again it could be mentioned in the main article but doesn't appear worthy of a separate page. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I have cited info from Rambles Around Kilmarnock. James Shaw went on to be Mayor of London. I suggest the James Shaw page remains and is not merged with the main Kilmarnock Page (Mccarthystumble (talk) 09:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

See reply at Talk:James Shaw Statue. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 09:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Vote to Merge. The Kilmarnock Cross article is among a recent spate of new articles on individual streets and sites around Kilmarnock that have little or no context to explain their significance, and which would be better served as part of the city's main article. See also King Street, Kilmarnock, John Finnie Street‎, Laigh Kirk, Howard Park Kilmarnock, George Hotel, Kilmarnock, and Burns Monument, among others. Kevin Forsyth (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I think with hindsight I realise the pages should be merged. apologies for inconvenience caused from my inexperience and I would have no objections to merge (Mccarthystumble (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

Vote to Merge. see my above comment (Mccarthystumble (talk) 20:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

Recent edits

An inexperienced editor, Hurlfordkillie, has recently made lots of edits to the article, introducing some fairly major stylistic problems such as including the text "Editing Kilmarnock (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" in the article. They've also added a map of the UK (?), some low-quality images, opening times for local attractions, etc. I'm reverting all of their edits because the article is now a mess. Some of it might be salvageable but I don't have the time for that now, so if anyone objects they can use the article history to restore useful edits. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• I see what you mean about the pictures - the text is all over the place now. I am concerned though when you say "Reverting all of their edits" who are "they" and what edits are you referring to? Would you be kind enough to clarify. Many thanks (Mccarthystumble (talk) 07:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC))

Sorry to be unlcear. I was referring to User:Hurlfordkillie. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Who has now been blocked as a sockpuppet. Cordless Larry (talk) 05:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the image showing Kilmarnocks weather in May really relevant? Douglasnicol (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I struggle to see any relevance to the Kilmarnock page. I also think the quality of some "in-car-shots" need discussed as they may detract from the over all quality of the page (Mccarthystumble (talk) 13:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC))

Outstanding Conservation Area

propose setting up a section detailing the Outstanding Conservation Area or should it be incorporated into an existing article? Here is a link to some info on the matter and it's current progress KILMARNOCK TOWNSCAPE HERITAGE INITIATIVE (Mccarthystumble (talk) 13:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC))