Talk:Rotary International

Famous Rotarians

• General Augusto Pinochet, Chile, involved in tax-fraud and in the 'death-caravan' activity, and into the Plan Condor in Chile (DINA activities)
• General Douglas MacArthur, United States, who negociated the protection of Japanese war criminals against the bacteriological weapons researches of Japan, for United States
• Walt Disney, United States, who named worker representatives as 'communists' before the MacCarthy commission, to avoid worker unions activities in the Disney company. Walt Disney was close to Wernher von Braun, ex-member of the prussian nobility, ex-SS officer.

Freiherr von Braun was member of the NSDAP, the nazi parti as 1937, and gave conferences for the Rotary club. Disney founded Epcot, a dreamed ideal city of the future (it should be interesting to check the percentage of Afro-Americans in Epcot, and compare it to the average of Florida).

• Soleiman Franjieh, Lebanon, founder of the Marada phalangist brigade, pro-Syrian
• Charles Lindbergh, United States, who tested nazi weapons and made attacks 'against the jew lobby in United States'
• Konosuke Matsushita, Japan, who built remote controls for Japan conventional and future bacteriological weapons, the Fu-Go balloons, who killed at least 4 persons in U.S.A.
• Prince Bernhard of Holland, The Netherlands, involved in the Lockeed weapons corruption scandal
• Neville Chamberlain, Prime Minister, Birmingham, United Kingdom, who allowed Hitler to kill Czecoslovakia and Austria, and the expansion of nazis in Europe before WWII
• George W. Bush - Rotary Club of Washington DC (honorary member by 'RI Past President' Frank Devlyn at a ceremony on July 2, July, 2001 at the White House), who lied on 'Iraki massive destruction weapons' to allow warfare between American youth and Iraki youth, who allowed the detention of people without judgment in Guantanamo, Cuba (500 people, 35 nationalities)
• King Hassan II of Morocco, Marocco, founder of the Tazmamart jail (opponents detention without judgment)
• Rainier III, Prince of Monaco, Monaco, involved in tax fraud scandal by the French parliament see http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/rap-info/i2311-611.asp

and specially concerning Rainier : http://www.assemblee-nationale.org/rap-info/i2311-2.asp

and many more...

Today 14 February 2006,16:27, my addings to the Rotary propaganda, used onto Wikipedia to define what is Rotary Club, were again vandalized by someone who tried to hide that Augusto Pinochet, tax frauder and one responsible of the 'missing' of 4.000 opponents in Chili, is a Rotary-honoured person, and clearly mentioned onto the Rotary fellowship official site. He removed the name of the Rotarian criminal, one of the parts of the Condor plan.

Can someone help me in knowing were comes the 200.113.140.92 Address ? United States ? Europe ?

Thank you very much, Pierre Larcin

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Last minute alert

Dear friends, I just saw that Famous Rotarian Pinochet (if we follow the Rotary Fellowship for Famous rotarians) as ALSO be deleted by user 200.113.140.92 in the en.wikipedia and ALSO in the it.wikipedia for Rotary International. I'll check in other langages. YES, that user 200.113.140.92 removed Pinochet from all version listed at the top of this critic, except for nl version, whose link was bad and written es.wikipedia.org.. So he followed the above links... I corrected in all, so Pinochet is still mentioned as a Famous Rotarian in all langages I use.

According to IP (if the vandal does not use spoofing) it seems that the Rotarian attack comes from Uruguay. For a comprehension of that attack, see Condor Plan under Wikipedia about mass murdering in Latin America under conservative and pro-Rotary dictatorship.

Pierre

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Trivia and Critics section

I think adding such a section in the main article is a great idea. It will allow for the introduction of information of a more contentious nature. I have temporarily deleted the section whilst we try to decide what the subsections should be. Can the criticisms of Rotary be separated into some nice categories? Perhaps the following:

• political influence
• membership demographics
• links with other organisations and movements

any others?

Yes there is also

• role with other organisations (UN, Unesco, other movements (Ashoka, Hamas))

Yep.

• old criticism that Rotary overwon (old critic against freemasonry done by Vatican church in years 1930). But personnally, I am pro-masonic, so...

I don't understand what you mean by "overwon".

• use of Wikipedia. I do not know if you noticed, but in the langages versions of Wikipedia, where some criticism appear on the pages of Rotary, the Rotarians logos (including Rotaract) and photos of Paul Harris disappear. Also, the old versions of pages were all the same ;-)

Wikipedia fiddling, I think, should be left for the discussion page and not part of the main article.

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Fabrice d'Almeida's book on the high-class life under nazism

Fabrice d'Almeida is Doctor in History and researcher at the French famous CNRS, http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/spip.php?article84

Extracts of the book :

In a book "la vie mondaine sous le nazisme" ("high-class life under nazism"), Perrin Editors, Paris, 2006 p 154-156, p 322, he shows the concomitance between nazism rising in Bavaria (Munich) and the foundation of Rotary Clubs (Munich on october 2d 1928, Berlin and Nuremberg 1929) under an uprising nazi regime "which in the beginnings allows that organization where sit members of the NSDAP. During the Olympic Games of 1936, a showroom of the regime, the Rotary Club of Berlin multiplies invitations. Under such circumstances, it is difficult to see Rotary as a league of opponents, as it is composed of notorious people, doctors, military personnel, businessmen and some member of the nobility. The german Rotarian monthly, 'Der Rotarier', does not hesitate to publish citation of the book 'Mein Kampf' with under others in february 1937 an ambiguous phrase : "the art of reading as the art of learning is today again : remember essentials, forget useless".

'Hostile papers appear in the nazi revue 'Blitz', suspicioning Rotary to help opponents and to work as a free-masonry. To proof its bona fide, the Rotary asks to meet the Fuhrer and to establish somee expertise in the tribunal of the NSDAP party who published in 1933-1934-1936 des ordnances autorizing the double membership, to Nazi Party and to Rotary Club. But the Ministery of Intérior forbids in 1937 Rotary membership to main central main public clerks and to authority clerks (police, military, etc) as against a national commitment. In july 1937, NSDAP decides to suppress the authorization of double membership at january 1stn 1938, between NSDAP and Rotary, with the argument of links between german Rotary and stranger Jews. This is a sentence to death for Rotary as more than the half of Rotary members are members of NSDAP.'

'"Humanist" Rotarians strangely do lobbying to attempt withdrawal of there restrictive measures. Dr Grill, head of the Rotary 73d district, attempt to show that his organization is compliant and necessary to the goals of Government. Conforme car elle a rejeté tous les non-Aryens des juillet 1936 ("lois raciales de Nuremberg") et s'engage à ne pas en réadmettre. Conforme car elle a interdit l'accès aux francs-maçons depuis 1933n et.... "n'a conservé que six adhérents antérieurs sur mille trois cents cinquante membres", encore ces derniers ne peuvent-ils plus adhérer aux hautes responsabilités. NEcessaire, car grace ç sib réseau international, le Rotary exerce une influence en faveur du Reich par-delà les frontières.

Les dirigeants du Rotary International tentent à leur tour de convaincre le Gouvernement nazi qu'ils ne sont pas un danger pour lui. Ils invitent le Fuhrer à leur Congrès International. Ils affirment par lettres comprendre l'action du Gouvernement nazi. Emile Deckers, gouverneur du district belge à Walter Buch, juge au Tribunal du NSDAP, envoyée le 28 apout 1937 à l'Ambassade d'Allemagne à Bruxelles pour transmission, regrette l'interdiction comme dommageable aux relations entre l'Allemagne et la Belgique. Il souligne que les Rotariens ont pour principe essentiel de respecter l'autorité établie avec cette citation "Nous avons peine à croire qu'il existe dans le Rotary allemand un autre esprit que celui de la discipline et du respect de l'autorité légale du pays" et ajoute à propos de la Belgique "il est vrai que, par la nature de l'organisation, il y a certains membres de la religion israélite, mais comme cela n'est pas une objection légale dans notre pays, nous ne pouvons en faire grief à nos clubs. Si la situation est différente en Allemagne, je suis persuadé que le Rotary pliera devant les décisions gouvernementales". Deckers semble déplorer la situation de tolérance belge. Sa position à l'égard des francs-maçons est ambigüe : il affirme sa confessions catholique partagée par Paul Harris, présudebt du Rotary International, contradictoire avec le maçonnisme. Il concult "la présente démarche n'est faite que dans le dessein de parfaite entente et d'amitié suivant les préceptes mêmes du code rotarien qui s'harmonise si bien dans ce cas avec nos sentiments personnels".

"La tentative d'un rotarien anglais de fléchir le gouvernement en arguant de l'impossibilité de forger en Allemagne une autre organisation capable de promouvoir de telles relations amicales reçoit une réponse cinglante, il en sera pour ses frais : il écrit "I have a great adlmiration for the splendid efforts you have made to build up a great german nation (j'ai une immense admiration pour les splendides efforts que vous avez faits pour construire une grande nation allemande, ecrit-il à Adolf Hitler". Et Fabrice d'Almeida de remarquer : "jusqu'ou cette complaisance serait elle allée si les nazis eux memes n'avaient pas imposé aux rotariens de mettre un terme à leur complicité ?" "

Devant l'inflexibilité du Gouvernement, le Rotary Clubv allemand oisit de s'autodissoudre : si bien que le prsident du Rotary International dira avec amertume en 1938 qye kes deux pays qui ont interdit le Rotary sont l'Allemagne et l'URSS. Toutefois d'autres pays devaient connaitre des évolutions similaires, telle l'Italie ou malgré la bonne entente initiale entre rotariens et fascistes, les dirigents décident d'une autodissolution à la fin de l'année 1938n dabs doute dans la perspective d'une rupture des liens internationaux...En Allemangne, l'antisémitisme a été un des moteurs essentiels de la fermeture...apres 19387 uk b'exuste plus aucune association ou cercle de la haute société qui accorde une place aux Juifs. Mieux, la certitude absolue de leur absence garantit la sélectivité du milieu..."

d'Almeida conclut sur le fait que les mécanismes de sociabilité sous le IIIe Reich ont rempli une fonction primordiale pour le pouvoir : la mise en conformité des élites dirigeantes, en modifiant les canaux de fonctionnement, en détruisant les partis, les syndicats, les organisations liées à l'étranger, comme les loges maçonniques ou le Rotary Club, favorisant le développement des réunions autour du NSDAP.

End of book citations before translation PierreLarcin 1 avril 2007 à 19:50 (GET)

IN FRENCH

Fabrice d'Almeida, is Doctor in History and researcher at the French famous CNRS, http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/spip.php?article84

Extracts of the book :

In a book "la vie mondaine sous le nazisme" ("high-class life under nazism"), Perrin Editors, Paris, 2006 p 154-156, p 322, he shows the concomitance entre la montée du nazisme bavarois (Munich) et la fondation de Rotary Clubs (Munich le 2 octobre 1928, Berlin et Nuremberg 1929) with a nazi regime "which in the beginnings allows that organization where sit members of the NSDAP. During the Olympic Games of 1936, a showroom of the regime, the Rotary Club of Berlin multiplies invitations. It is so difficult de voir le Rotary comme un repaire d'opposants, avec une composition de notables, médecins, militaires, hommes d'affaires et quelques nobles. Le mensuel rotarien, Der Rotarier, n'hésite pas à citer Mein Kampf avec notamment en février 1937 une phrase ambigue : "l'art de lire comme d'apprendre est aujourd 'hui encore : retenir 'essentiel, oublier l'inutile".

"Des articles hostiles apparaissent dans la revue nazie Blitz, soupçonnant le Rotary d'abriter des opposants et de fonctionner comme la franc-maçonnerie. Pour prouver sa bonne foi, le Rotary demande à rencontrer le Fuhrer et d'établir une expertise devant le tribunal du NSDAP qui avait rendu en 1933-1934-1936 des avis autorisant la double appartenance au Parti Nazi et au Rotary Club. Mais le Ministre de l'Intérieur interdit en 1937 le Rotary aux fonctionnaires centraux et aux fonctionnaires d'autorité comme contraire à l'engagement national. En juillet 1937, le NSDAP dédide de supprimer l'autorisation de double appartenance au 1er janvier 1938 entre NSDAP et Rotary, avec l'argument des liens entre Rotary allemand et Juifs étrangers. C'est l'arret de mort du Rotay car plus de la moitié des adhérents Rotariens sont membres du NSDAP."

"Les Rotariens "humanistes" font "étrangement" des démarches pour tenter d'obtenir une levée de ces mesures restrictives. Le Dr Grill, responsable du 73e district du Rotary, tente de montrer que son organisation est conforme et nécessaire aux buts du Gouvernement. Conforme car elle a rejeté tous les non-Aryens des juillet 1936 ("lois raciales de Nuremberg") et s'engage à ne pas en réadmettre. Conforme car elle a interdit l'accès aux francs-maçons depuis 1933n et.... "n'a conservé que six adhérents antérieurs sur mille trois cents cinquante membres", encore ces derniers ne peuvent-ils plus adhérer aux hautes responsabilités. NEcessaire, car grace ç sib réseau international, le Rotary exerce une influence en faveur du Reich par-delà les frontières.

Les dirigeants du Rotary International tentent à leur tour de convaincre le Gouvernement nazi qu'ils ne sont pas un danger pour lui. Ils invitent le Fuhrer à leur Congrès International. Ils affirment par lettres comprendre l'action du Gouvernement nazi. Emile Deckers, gouverneur du district belge à Walter Buch, juge au Tribunal du NSDAP, envoyée le 28 apout 1937 à l'Ambassade d'Allemagne à Bruxelles pour transmission, regrette l'interdiction comme dommageable aux relations entre l'Allemagne et la Belgique. Il souligne que les Rotariens ont pour principe essentiel de respecter l'autorité établie avec cette citation "Nous avons peine à croire qu'il existe dans le Rotary allemand un autre esprit que celui de la discipline et du respect de l'autorité légale du pays" et ajoute à propos de la Belgique "il est vrai que, par la nature de l'organisation, il y a certains membres de la religion israélite, mais comme cela n'est pas une objection légale dans notre pays, nous ne pouvons en faire grief à nos clubs. Si la situation est différente en Allemagne, je suis persuadé que le Rotary pliera devant les décisions gouvernementales". Deckers semble déplorer la situation de tolérance belge. Sa position à l'égard des francs-maçons est ambigüe : il affirme sa confessions catholique partagée par Paul Harris, présudebt du Rotary International, contradictoire avec le maçonnisme. Il concult "la présente démarche n'est faite que dans le dessein de parfaite entente et d'amitié suivant les préceptes mêmes du code rotarien qui s'harmonise si bien dans ce cas avec nos sentiments personnels".

"La tentative d'un rotarien anglais de fléchir le gouvernement en arguant de l'impossibilité de forger en Allemagne une autre organisation capable de promouvoir de telles relations amicales reçoit une réponse cinglante, il en sera pour ses frais : il écrit "I have a great adlmiration for the splendid efforts you have made to build up a great german nation (j'ai une immense admiration pour les splendides efforts que vous avez faits pour construire une grande nation allemande, ecrit-il à Adolf Hitler". Et Fabrice d'Almeida de remarquer : "jusqu'ou cette complaisance serait elle allée si les nazis eux memes n'avaient pas imposé aux rotariens de mettre un terme à leur complicité ?" "

Devant l'inflexibilité du Gouvernement, le Rotary Clubv allemand oisit de s'autodissoudre : si bien que le prsident du Rotary International dira avec amertume en 1938 qye kes deux pays qui ont interdit le Rotary sont l'Allemagne et l'URSS. Toutefois d'autres pays devaient connaitre des évolutions similaires, telle l'Italie ou malgré la bonne entente initiale entre rotariens et fascistes, les dirigents décident d'une autodissolution à la fin de l'année 1938n dabs doute dans la perspective d'une rupture des liens internationaux...En Allemangne, l'antisémitisme a été un des moteurs essentiels de la fermeture...apres 19387 uk b'exuste plus aucune association ou cercle de la haute société qui accorde une place aux Juifs. Mieux, la certitude absolue de leur absence garantit la sélectivité du milieu..."

d'Almeida conclut sur le fait que les mécanismes de sociabilité sous le IIIe Reich ont rempli une fonction primordiale pour le pouvoir : la mise en conformité des élites dirigeantes, en modifiant les canaux de fonctionnement, en détruisant les partis, les syndicats, les organisations liées à l'étranger, comme les loges maçonniques ou le Rotary Club, favorisant le développement des réunions autour du NSDAP.

End of book citations before translation PierreLarcin 1 avril 2007 à 19:50 (GET)

HOW TO JOIN Mr D'ALMEIDA Fabrice d'ALMEIDA +49(0) 30/20 93 37 95-85 Chercheur associé +49(0) 30/20 93 37 95-98 Histoire Fabrice.dalmeida@cmb.hu-berlin.de

Thèmes de recherche La vie mondaine sous les fascismes

source : http://www.cmb.hu-berlin.de/cmb/main/index.php?cms_menu_id=423&language=pl click on "d'Almeida presentation" link He is also researcher at the French "CNRS" National Scientific Research Center

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Pinochet speaks at the Santiago Rotary Club

in Spanish http://www.avizora.com/publicaciones/derechos_humanos/textos/0006_juicio_historia.htm

http://www.copesa.cl/DE/1996/_Des1996/09_11/politica.html

in French : http://www.humanite.fr/journal/1990-09-29/1990-09-29-803154

http://www.humanite.fr/journal/1993-09-09/1993-09-09-683789

in Dutch : http://www.menschenrechte.org/beitraege/vergangenheit/beitV004.htm

there is a close relation between Rotary Santiago and Defense Forces of Chile ::

search also on this site : http://www.europapress.es/noticia.aspx?cod=20070608183601

http://www.rotary.cl/club4340/rcnunoa/public_html/lospapeles/El_Papel_120.pdf

search on google

"chile ROTARY CLUB homenaje a las fuerzas armadas"

http://nicolasvegaanjel.blogspot.com/2006_11_01_archive.html

http://www.ejercito.cl/noticias/detalle_comunicados.php?id=698&PHPSESSID=1c5257259bd949ee7034ef3834536438

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Popular Culture

Le Juppé crew Mai 1995 : Jacques Chirac est élu président. Trois rappeurs, Karré Hermès, MC Filip Pet'1 et Communist Killer, décident de crier à la France leur amour de la Droite, de l'ordre et du libéralisme. C'est ainsi que se crée le groupe de rap Liberal D. Foncez écouter leurs tubes : « Amoureux de la police », « In da rotary club », et surtout l'énorme « Libérez Alain Juppé »

http://www.marianne2007.info/HUMOUR_r24.html

http://www.moutonclan.com/juppe/

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Right activists as Rotarians

UMP in France : ce sont des blogs politiques UMP. Vous y trouverez des mentions Rotary (conférences, reconnaissance de l'affiliation, etc)

http://romainmouton.hautetfort.com/archive/2007/06/05/je-soutiens-bernard-accoyer.html

http://jeunespopulaires34.midiblogs.com/archive/2006/11/02/palavas-les-flots-journee-sur-le-liban.html#comments

http://www.desmaziere.com/blog/index.php?2007/05/03/206-debats#co

http://www.genevievelevy.com/index.php?id=59

http://solere.blogs.com/boulogne/2005/04/diner_de_gala_d.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-french&y=2005&m=November&x=20051116154459cmretrop0.2094843

Adding a valid date so this section will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

NPOV Tag

The recent addition of the NPOV tag with the Edit Summary of "This article needs a serious peer-review, it completely masks deep pro-nazi past of Rotary" does not come with a concise explanation or opportunity to discuss. I propose we have the explanation (and evidence) or we delete the tag.Ariconte (talk) 06:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

there is above a clear explanation and sourcing (Fabrice d'Almeida scientific book about proNazi past of Rotary International) about the elitist and pro-Nazi actions. Recently we had the blankings of two conservative activists, Bombastus and Bradipus, who blanked a list which confirm the conservative and elitist action of the Rotary. This has been completely wrapped from the wiki.

On the counterpart, we have on the page the actions of CeeGee and different proRotarian or registered Rotarian wikipedians (Ordifana, IPs who come here to detail the different philanthropic actions of their respective Rotary clubs) and this is not edited. On the French wiki, where Bradipus and Bombastus had an arbitration ABOUT Rotary, which various allegations about their activist behaviors, we find scientific mentions (thesis) about Max Gallo and Rotarian links with Mussolini's regime, and explicite Rotarian service offers to Adolf Hitler ("Dr Grill, Governor of Rotary Germany", or also "offers of the Belgian Rotary Club". Note that Bradipus seems to be a Belgian conservative activist). If we have a look on other wikis, we observe that Bombastus removed systematically lists on es and it wiki, while German wikipedians have a full list of "Good" and "Bad" rotarians. Bombastus, who is a member of German wikipedia (and Bradipus) did not remove such lists there.

To resume, we have the blanking of "negative" parts and we have the "passive" support of "positive" parts, which justify the NPOV tag. This article needs a serious peer-review. Bye. 84.100.98.164 (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It does not work like that. You can't just refuse discussion, disappear during the semi-protection week, and then come back and start again this stupid POV war of yours. If you are unable to discuss, then leave WP alone.

Ariconte, I guess you can see from the above discussion who we are confronted with again. For a summary about the guy, see here.

It is unclear what the issue would be for "nazi germany": the bulk of the information in d'Almeida's book is in Rotary International#World War II and Nazi Germany (as a matter of fact, this section is not well written, and biased against Rotary: the sentence "Thomas Mann was removed from the membership as a political enemy of the Nazis" is not sourced, and not neutral).

Regarding the list of rotarians, I am happy to read hereabove a sentence referring to the list as "a list which confirm the conservative and elitist action of the Rotary": the IP confirms that he had an agenda in putting this list in the article, and that the list is not neutral in essence.

The IP just inadvertently confirmed that the article is more neutral after the list has been deleted. I propose we delete this NPOV tag until the IP shows some capacity to expose actual arguments or facts. Bradipus (talk) 09:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Bradipus, stop personal attacks. You are a conservative activist, OK. That's not because we write that M. Bormann and Hitler were close friends of Rotarians that we "have an agenda". It is a fact, that's all. When we COMPARE with the work that other wiki communities do (German for example, who seem to have a much clearer approch on nazisme and pro-nazism movements, see their federal, Constitution), we see that YOU BRADIPUS AND YOUR FRIEND BOMBASTUS HAVE AN AGENDA deleting any list of (conservative) rotarians, like Pinochet, Richard Miller, Louis Michel. The list speaks of itself, and is a counterpart of the "Officially Rotarian" "humanitarian" work. That's not because Rotary propaganda shows itself as non-politic, humanitarian that we have here to duplicate that propaganda.

More of all, you do not have any God-driven right, you Bradipus, to decide what must and what is not allowed to take part of the wiki, as you showed on the French article of Wikipedia about Rotary International. Truly, you used ANY argument to wipe-off what you do not like, no ?

Who has an agenda, here ? Me ? You 're sure ?

84.100.98.164 (talk) 12:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's really funny, but anyone only needs to read your comments (including on my talk page) to see where the personnal attacks come from.

Let me give you just one little example: you start your message with "stop personal attacks", and in the next sentence, you launch your usual personnal attack ("You are a conservative activist").

Agenda...who has an agenda? Looking at you editions, focused on one single subject, it is a rather theoretical question, isn't it?

We are not here to describe facts. We are here to write an encyclopedia, which is about sources but also relevancy, as was explained to you numerous times, and not only by me.

All the people who have participated in the discussions in this page have disagreed with your point of view. It is maybe time to reconsider your position?

But you can also try to discuss. For instance, you could try to do what you never did until now: tell us some good reasons why this list should be in the article (hint: the fact that the list would confirm "the conservative and elitist action of the Rotary" is not a good reason). Bradipus (talk) 13:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr the Bradipus-source-of-the-law-here, I may consider that if for Spanish, Italian and German wikipedians a list may seem to be relevant, I can also think that for a UK- or US-Wikipedian, a list may be relevant also. In the reality, two persons have an agenda with such a list

By the way your editions about Rotary proNazi past is completely biased. As far as I may read from Pierre Larcin's inclusions here about the d'Almeida's book, you completely hide what Mr d'Almeida's book says explicitely. As usual (I do not really think were this habit of biasing comes from...while I MAY have an idea about...) you seeem to have just placed oriented extracts and washed the sense of that SCIENTIFIC book.

Conclusion : a list of known Rotarians (including Ron Hubbard) has a place here, and a complete review of your inclusions and bias needs to be done. 84.100.98.164 (talk) 21:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Time to finish this game:

"Rotary pro nazi past": either you have something specific and sourced to say about it or the discussion becomes impossible. If you think d'Almeida book says something else that what I wrote, please quote.

"list": you have not yet brought one shred of argument in favour of the list, the discussion is still impossible.

Bradipus (talk) 05:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Possibly using some other references regarding the Nazi period would allow consensus. I have identified some that may be useful... I don't have the books so cannot tell. They are:

Biess, Mark. Conflict, Catastrophe and Continuity: Essays on Modern German History. Germany: Berghahn Books. pp. P 309. ISBN 1845452003. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessyear=, |origmonth=, |accessmonth=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |origdate= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

De Grazia, Victoria. Irresistible Empire: America's Advance Through Twentieth-century Europe. Harvard University Press. pp. P 71. ISBN 0674016726. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessyear=, |origmonth=, |accessmonth=, |chapterurl=, |month=, |origdate=, and |coauthors= (help)

Hayes, Peter. Industry and Ideology: I. G. Farben in the Naxi Era. Cambridge University Press. pp. P 103. ISBN 052178638X. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessyear=, |origmonth=, |accessmonth=, |chapterurl=, |month=, |origdate=, and |coauthors= (help)

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RSUE . Regards Ariconte (talk) 12:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Ariconte, I am not sure what issue you are willing to address. I mean, it is OK to give source suggestions, but allow me to brief you on the issue here: there is a book by historian d'Almeida which is fine, about high society organisation in the nazi regime. The core of the book is about the destruction of the old elite and of the old circles and relationship and the creation of a specific nazi high society. In the destruction process, there are 3 pages about how the nazis dealt with Rotary. This is described in the article for the moment, including the efforts of Rotary to appease the nazis prior to their dissolution. But although one can feel that d'Almeida is not sympathetic with the way certain Rotary officials expressed that the Rotary was in agreement with the regime, it does not go further than that.

The IP is a POV pusher who seems to have decided that Rotary was deeply compromised with the regime. But that is just not in the book. Please note that I asked him to be specific about the issues he raised, but he will never be. All he knows is personnal attacks (see above, see the previous administration intervention, ....). Further to the previous incidents, he could not push his POV, so now he resorts to the NPOV tag. But the NPOV tag implies a discussion, and there was never anything close to a discussion with that guy. So I suggest we delete this tag, because he just has caused enough trouble on this article since 2 years. Bradipus (talk) 15:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't read French. Therefore I (and other editors with the same limitation) can not use the d'Almeida reference. Users of the article can not check the reference. That is the reason for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RSUE . I will use one or more of the references I suggested to replace the d'Almeida reference.... then English limited editors and users of the article can check the reference to see that it says what is claimed. You can use http://books.google.com/ and search 'Rotary nazi' to see parts of these books. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at what was available. Well, not much, although there are indirect confirmations of what d'Almeida wrote. I used a interesting piece of information in the article. D'almeida definitely brings informations that are not in the english sources you indicated, but what you can guess from these sources does not contradict d'Almeida. I think it is fair d'Almeida is used as source and cited as such. Bradipus (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I will try to obtain the sources mentioned and additional sources - this might take some time. Ariconte (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ariconte, we might be loosing time for not much here. Wikipedia:RSUE does not preclude from using sources who are not in english when there are no sources directly available in english treating the same subject. BTW, I do not fully find acceptable the way Wikipedia:RSUE is written, which can jeopardize the universalist character of WP. I will probably go to that page to express my concerns. But anyway, I would like to understand why you are trying to replace the french source: is it to adress the issue raised by the IP or is it for another reason? Bradipus (talk) 09:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I have obtained two of the references (De Grazia and Biess) and read them. There is lots of material! I am not good at composition but have made an attempt to add some material at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ariconte/RIhistWW2 Comments welcome - I suppose I should just insert it into the RI page.....? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariconte (talk • contribs) 02:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you mind if I edit User:Ariconte/RIhistWW2? Bradipus (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it is better to have in in the article - so I have move it there. Ariconte (talk) 13:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I have somewhat reorganised. The sole part I deleted is "The time of the Nazis (National Socialism) and the Holocaust have been known as a "rupture of civilization"". I just did not know what to do with that text. Bradipus (talk) 10:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Protected again

Semiprotected for a week due to the IP socks. To the anon: edit-warring and insulting people gets nothing done. Discuss here. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Rotary on the Internet

I would like to request that someone rework the section "Rotarian Presence on Internet".

[I am not a Rotarian, but I have been a member of Rotaract, one of Rotary's programs]

It currently reads:

"Rotary has begun to build "virtual" Rotary e-Clubs on Internet [34]. Rotary shows on the Internet its own selection of "famous Rotarians"[35]. Rotary is active through the site: "Digaria"[36]."

There are thousands upon thousands of Rotary-related sites on the internet; as well as Rotary International's own site, there are many sites maintained by Rotary clubs, districts, fellowships and zone directors, as well as sites about various Rotary projects and programs. If a section about Rotary's presence on the internet is warranted, shouldn't there be a better indication given of just how many and varied the sites are, rather than picking 3 isolated examples only? In regards to the three examples listed,

• Rotary eClubs have been around for a number of years now, so saying Rotary has "begun to build" them is incorrect.
• I'm not sure why saying Rotary has "its own selection of famous Rotarians" is worth mentioning in this section, compared to all the other sites that could be selected to illustrate Rotary's presence on the Internet.
• It is also not correct to say that Rotary (as a whole) is active through the site Digaria. Digaria is run by a business (not Rotary) selling social-networking services to Rotarians who aren't aware they can get them for free elsewhere (I can elaborate if needed). It is certainly not indicative of how Rotary (as a whole) is active.

Better choices could include sites like:

• Rotarians on the Internet (http://www.roti.org)
• The Rotary Global History Fellowship (http://www.rotaryhistoryfellowship.org)

etc, which are sites maintained by Rotarians on a voluntary basis from all over the globe and are much more indicative of the actual work of Rotarians working on behalf of Rotary.

Sgcc (talk) 07:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In fact, if you want my opinion, the whole section may be removed for lack of relevance. We do not create in each article related to an organisation a section related to the website(s) such organisation has created or maintains, so there is no reason to have such a section here. There is nothing encyclopedic in this section, and any relevant data should be moved to the "internet links" section of the article. Bradipus (talk) 10:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. I did not move to any link section. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ELNO Ariconte (talk) 12:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

not a good idea. As showed hereunder, some Wikipedians are pro-Rotary activists.

Rotary as assets on wikipedia (CeeGee, Bradipus) and I DO NOT THINK that hiding that Rotary speaks about Rotary on Wikipedia is a good idea. Yes I know "no circular references" was the "objection" to hide that.

Rotary is VERY active on Internet, masks via "third clubs" like Digaria, speaks on Wikipedia, that's not a good idea at all to remove the "Internet activities" section. (see what became the "Women discrimination section" : it's obvious that Rotary was CONDEMNED by supreme court for anti-women segregation : now the wiki section is a full recopy of the Rotarian propaganda). I do not think we gain quality and fame by recopying the Rotarian litterature about Rotary. Pierre Larcin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.96.49.54 (talk) 08:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

If you persist in making personal attacks on other editors, the talk page will be protected to prevent your further disruption of this page. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Archive??

I think it would be a good idea to archive this talk page. See Help:Archiving_a_talk_page . Comments? Ariconte (talk) 12:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Everything above the "NPOV Tag" section might be archived according to me. Talking of the NPOV tag, we might as well remove it. Bradipus (talk) 12:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree re the NPOV tag. Any other comments re Archiving? Ariconte (talk) 13:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I have set it for auto archiving. The bot (MiszaBot) should create archives for sections with dates older than 21 days but leaving the last 5 sections in the (non-archived) talk page. After it runs the first time - I will set up an archive box and index. Ariconte (talk) 02:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

it's not a good idea at all : Rotary and pro-rotary wikipedians trie desesperately to hide that Ernest Medina, Hassan II and King Baudouin (Pinochet also, it seems, with George Bush and Prescott Bush) are HONORARY rotarians.

I think that Bradipus is a Belgian : Rotary has there a Rotarian : Ministry Louis Michel, who supports American actions around the world. It seems also that Wernher von Braun was a Rotarian, despite he was a nazi officer and the vice-commander of the Dora concentration camp, which built nazi "massive retaliation" missiles.

By the way I saw that Ariconte and Bradipus have some problem to "pack" the fact that Rotary excluded jews in Germany....because there were jews...(yes I know 'Nazi forced Rotary', "we just obey to orders" etc. We know that system).

As Bradipus always support on french Wikipedia the image of MR-Parti politicians, which is leaded by Louis Michel and populated by Rotarians in Belgium (as most conservative parties are around the world) I DO NOT THINK THAT BRADIPUS IS RATHER OBJECTIVE TO "CRITIC" Rotary. Bye pals. PierreLarcin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.96.49.54 (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no point in answering the personnal attacks of Larcin, but I can't help laughing when I read "Ministry Louis Michel, who supports American actions around the world": everybody, except Larcin apparently, remembers that Michel was instrumental in precluding NATO from intervening in the Iraq War (see here, here and here for instance). Bradipus (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And where are the links to the archives? Bradipus (talk) 20:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added links to the archives and set up indexing of them. I also added a valid date to each section above so they will archive in 21 days Ariconte (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

My conclusion is that these archiving bots are still missing some features, aren't they?  ;-) Bradipus (talk) 05:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)