Talk:Poker

Introduction Section

The article begins with a very poor definition of what poker is by stating:

"Poker is a popular type of card game in which players gamble on the superior value of the card combination ("hand") in their possession, by placing a bet into a central pot."

Besides the fact that the sentence and usage of the phrase "superior value of the card combination" is awkward, good poker players do not consider themselves to be "gambling" on most of the hands they play. Good poker players make bets/wagers and more often than not know the exact outcome of their actions (i.e., they know the opponent will fold or if they're not sure, they know that either the opponent will fold and they'll win $X, or the opponent will not fold and they'll lose $Y). It is also possible in poker to know that you have the best possible hand that no one can beat, and therefore you cannot be considered "gambling" at this point. Furthermore, you aren't simply placing bets on the value of your hand. Sometimes you disregard the value of your hand because you know your opponent will fold 90% of the time if you place a particular bet/raise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.179.111.2 (talk) 14:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree the intro is clumsy, but gambling is a required mention if only because most players are not "good poker players" as you say. 2005 14:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Poker is not gambling and I wish uneducated people would stop describing it as such. A gambling activity is one where people stake money at unfavourable odds - such as on a horse race at a bookmakers. Other activities involve risking money, but not at unfavourable odds. For example, people invest money in shares, but they are not gambling because the odds are in their favour - they can reasonably expect to make a profit in the long run. In poker, the idea is to place "bets" when the odds are in your favour - that's the whole point of the game!

Your contrast with sports betting is not accurate. In fact there is a close similarity. In both cases the odds are unfavourable for the bettors as a whole (assuming the poker table has a rake), but a skilful player, like knowledgeable sports bettors, will beat the odds and profit from the other players' losses.89.243.108.56 (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it pointless to describe poker as gambling when the very object of the game is not to gamble! Some people playing badly doesn't change the point of the game! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.227.46 (talk) 08:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Not pointless, accurate in fact. Better players beat the odds by applying skill just as knowledgeable sports bettors do. Both cases comprise gambling, though skilful individuals can by understanding the odds win more often. Even they, however, can have wild up and down swings. Gambling is the large element of chance in the individual outcomes. The chance is still there even though the odds can be calculated. You do not know your opponents' cards, and even if you did you could go all-in with the best hand and lose. I know that we sometimes use the term "gambler" to describe a loose player who just takes a punt, but this is a variant use of the word. In the sense in which it is used here, a gambling game is one in which money is staked and there is an element of luck. It does not have to be pure luck (as in roulette) any more than sports or political betting are. Your point is correct but it just uses "gambling" in a different sense. All the poker writers I have read describe what they do as "making a living from gambling".89.243.108.56 (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Since I posted the above (my IP address has been changed but it's still me!), I have had a little more insight into the subject. Most people, myself included until I looked more closely, just tend to assume that if you are a break-even player (i.e. your results are similar to flipping a coin) you would expect over time your losses and wins will roughly even out, which is the basis of the argument that "It's not gambling". This is not so. They are as or more likely to swing wildly one way or the other. For a mathematical angle on this look at the first paragraph of "Random walk" and the accompanying diagram. Then go to the Random Walk Generator at [1]and run it a few times. More times than not the line swings well away from the central axis. In fact the most likely number of returns to the axis in a finite number of plays is 0! [2]. Once you are $1000 down you are equally likely to pull back or to lose a further $1000. 78.147.145.33 (talk) 10:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This comes up from time to time, but it's really simple. Whether or not the odds are in your favor, if you're placing wagers, that's gambling. Having a positive or negative expectation doesn't affect whether or not it's gambling. Casinos gamble every time someone places a roulette bet. But the odds are in their favor. Doesn't mean the casino isn't gambling. Rray (talk) 17:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

POKER IS A GAME OF SKILL

It is NOT gambling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.231.20 (talk) 17:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What, prey tell, do think characterizes gambling? --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 17:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! Poker is not gambling and I wish uneducated people would stop describing it as such. A gambling activity is one where people stake money at unfavourable odds - such as on a horse race at a bookmakers. Other activities involve risking money, but not at unfavourable odds. For example, people invest money in shares, but they are not gambling because the odds are in their favour - they can reasonably expect to make a profit in the long run. In poker, the idea is to place "bets" when the odds are in your favour - that's the whole point of the game! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.227.46 (talk) 08:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Since when are the two concepts "game of skill" and "gambling" exclusive? Poker is certainly both. I don't know of any dictionary that lists "unfavorable odds" in its definition of "gamble". To gamble is simply to risk money on an event whose outcome is largely due to random chance, even if you have the odds heavily in your favor. The casino is gambling just as much as its patrons, so long as its results are based largely on random things like shuffled cards and dice rolls. We don't generally say that a businessman or a stock trader are gambling, because their outcomes are based on things like good marketing, good business decisions and such, even though there is certainly some random chance involved as well. We would say that a trader is gambling if he were investing heavily in things that were dependent on, say, the weather or local politics or speculative research or similar random things. I have been playing poker for 30 years, professionally for many, and I never had any illusion that I wasn't gambling. I may have the best of it, and win in the long run, and have never missed my mortgage payment; but there have definitely been times where the turn of a card made the difference in whether I bought the new TV now or a month or two later. --LDC (talk) 16:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

"Gambling" just means that wagering is involved. Being a game of skill has nothing to do with it being a gambling game. Rray (talk) 17:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Not true in some places. "Gambling" is illegal in some places, and the legal definition of "gambling" generally involves an element of chance. People get all worked up about whether poker is gambling because if it is, it's illegal in lots of places; and if it isn't, it's legal in those places. Tempshill (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Illegality is irrelevant here, and what you mention is not an issue anyway. Legal arguments generally focus on a skill thresholds and a propenderance of chance. No one suggests poker doesn't have chance, and no one has ever argued poker is not gambling. 2005 (talk) 21:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Mark Twain wrote a short story in which there was a trial to determine whether poker was a game of chance. The jury retired and couldn't reach a verdict; half the jury thought it was, and half thought it wasn't. They then played an actual game of poker back in the jury room, and the non-poker players, who happened to be those who thought it was a game of chance, all went bust; and in this way the matter was decided. Tempshill (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolute Poker cheating issue

I removed the section on the Absolute Poker cheating scandal. That info belongs in Absolute Poker and Cheating in poker, where it is already covered. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 21:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Pagat.com a personal webpage?

Just out of curiousity, is a website written a by a professional historian, without any biographical content, and focuses on a single topic (card games) a personal webpage? I'm just asking because I'm trying to figure out what constitutes a personal webpage, because I don't think www.pagat.com fits the profile. ( I also apologize for my serial edit earlier. I am new to the wiki edit and have just discovered the history. I had no idea that certain sources could not be mentioned.) --75.176.82.74 (talk) 08:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that comment was nonsense. The pagat link is obviously a reliable source, and a pagat link that is Parlett article is even more obviously a reliable source. I restored the refs. 2005 (talk) 08:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

--Thanks! I thought I was going nuts for a second. --Jtd00123 (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

As Nas

Unfortunately a lot of claims relating As Nas to poker on the net come from poker journalists without any sources. The only source I found on poker history that came from an actual historian was found below:

http://www.pagat.com/vying/pokerhistory.html

Abridged version of the As Nas discussion Lately I have been going back and forth with an editor on the importance of As Nas in relation to poker. I know my explanation of the lack of evidence of As Nas's relation to poker is a bit bloated, so I will clean it out and give an abriged version of my argument

I'm not the only historian that doesn't buy the poque/primero origins of poker (see Alvarez, for example). If poque were the ancestor of poker, then it would have used the 52-card deck and had the flush, as poque did at the time. It is quite clearly documented that early poker used a 20-card deck and had no flush, exactly like As Nas. The flush and the 52-card deck were later additions (along with the straight and others). As far as the historical origins of this article are concerned, you can blame me--I created it, and I edited it based on my own views of the rather spotty historical evidence involved. I'd be happy to see references to better scholarship on the issue, but I haven't found them. --LDC (talk) 16:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Facts supporting As Nas as the direct ancestor of poker and not Poque: 1) While poque is very similar to poker, in terms of hand rankings and deck count, As Nas, remarkably, is even MORE similar to poker then poque. Both poker and As Nas used 20 cards, and both had the addition of two pair and full house. Interpretation: but, as Parlett worded it, the only evidence is a strong resemblence, which makes it at least just as likely that Poker influenced As Nas (read below for explanation) 2) The Ganjifeh deck, the Persian deck used for As Nas, was invented in the 1700s, making it older then the poker deck. However, the Ganjifeh deck is a 90 card deck, not a 20 card deck, which brings us to...

Facts supporting that As Nas has nothing to do with poker: 1) The Ganjifeh deck was obviously not created for As Nas, which makes it less probable the game was invented during the deck's 18th century origin. 2) While there is plenty of evidence that other "poker-like" games around the region and time of the birthplace of poker, such as Brag, Boulliotte, and Poque, there is absolutely no evidence of As Nas being anywhere at that time or place, In fact, - There is no evidence of its existence prior to 1890, anywhere, in Persia, America, Europe, Antartica. None. 3) the only source descibing the rules of As-Nas comes from an American in 1895, from the hearsay of another American, not a Persian. Credibility issue anyone? 4) The desciption of game leaves open the possibility that betting can continue after all bets are equal. If this is the case, then the betting structure of poker has more in common with poque then As Nas 5) And here is the big one: The fact that the As in As Nas is not a Persian word but a French word, meaning Ace. And thus, 6) It is more likey that As Nas comes from a French bluffing game rather then the other way around, perhaps even poker itself. (assuming the game even existed) 7) From the 15th century till the 20th century, Poque/Pochspiel has left clear evidence of its origins, its spread across Europe, and even to America. There is a definite lineage there, it left breadcrumbs everywhere it went. It became brag in England, Mus in Spain, and Primero in Italy. It could have even have became As Nas in Persia. With As Nas, we don't have any lineage, no evidence that it spreaded throughout the middle east, and made its way to America like Poque did. Hell, we barely have any "evidence" that is started in Persia, other then the musings of an American general.

More analysis on the origin of poker: -We must also consider the fact that the 2nd version of poker, poker we think of today, used the draw (the first one didn't), and used a 52 card deck, and thus: a) the high possibility that the 2nd version of poker was influenced by the game Brag, which also used a 52 card deck and used a draw, and thus b) it is logical to assume that poker, as we think of today, doesn't have one ancestor, but at least two.

(everything said here can be found on the source above, or on the site containing the source) --Jtd00123 (talk) 07:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Poque

I have only found two sources so far that seem reliable. One is from an actual Oxford historian http://www.pagat.com/vying/pokerhistory.html The other, while I'm not sure if it is written by a historian or a journalist, is a published author. At least had the decency to write where he got his information from. Most of the the quotes are from historians regarding the history of poker, or paraphrased information taken from scholarly sources. http://www.cardplayer.com/history_of_poker/article/7-poque-or-poqas-to-pokuh

(If anyone finds anymore scholarly sources on the issue, I would love to see them if you have the time to send them to me)

The first half of the source from cardplayer is pretty much about the debate on the history of poker over the course of 80 years. Of the historians cited in the article, most in the last 20 years seemed in favor of poque being the direct ancestor of poker. The rest viewed poque as being one of its major ancestors (see Al Alverez's theory)

Down below is a collection of facts that I gathered from pagat's article on Poque's rules, and the two other sources shown above.

Facts supporting Poque as the direct ancestor of poker: 1) The birthplace of poker was settled by French. Evidence shows that the game poque was played in the birthplace of poker, a French game very similar to Poker. 5 cards were dealt. The betting method is almost exactly like poker at the 2nd stage, where The betting continues around the table until bet by the players who have stayed in are equal, or until everyone but one has folded. 2) Poque is only missing two of the original poker's hand rankings. The biggest differnce is the deck count, some extra, admittingly odd, betting rules before the 2nd stage(especially before), and two missing hand rankings. Interpretion: However, poker would not at all groundbreaking or radical in comparison to poque. In fact, it is really just a simplified version of poque. The poker method of betting is a simplified version of the poque method, and the deck is smaller. In fact, I can make an argument that poque and original poker are more similar to each other then original poker and many of today's poker variants 3) Bouillotte, a French game also similar to poker, used a 20 card deck, much like the original poker deck 4) If you played Poque using a Bouillotte deck, you will play a game almost exactly like poker, minus two pair and full house Interpretation: Poker is likely just the result of someone wanting to play poque but only having a Bouilotte deck. 5)Last but not least, the word poker is obviously the result of an anglicized southern butchering of the pronunciation of the word poque. Interpretaion: Thus, it is obvious that the people of the time felt that they were continuing the tradition, or actually playing, a game called poque. The rules changed slightly, but the game was still there. --Jtd00123 (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

User Doesluch

Stop deleting the fact that As Nas has no evidence of its existence prior to 1890. It is a relevant fact that needs to be mentioned, and is not meant to show a personal point of view. If you want I can add historian's debate if you wish, but the 1890 date needs to be mentioned. To this day, you have still not mentioned why you continue to delete it. The rules mention that you should take it to the discussion page. You have yet to respond, on the discussion page or your talk page. Does you continuance to delete it reflect your personal views? If this countinues this will have to be settled with an admin. Please discuss why you continue to delete before reverting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 09:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Update: I have added your "facts". But I have a quick question:

Is it neccesary to put disagreements of historians on the relation between As Nas and poker on the history page? Especially the view of historians 60 years apart?

Doesluch seems to think it is. I feel that it is unncessary clutter, and that the facts of the of the game itself only need to be mentioned, not the disagreements of historians over a 60 year time period. I still think that a) As Nas resembles poker, and b) there is no evidence of its existence prior to 1890, is sufficient enough. Are there any other opinions on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 09:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is the comment I aded of Doesluch's talk page that he has yet to respond to:

My small edit on As Nas was at least factual, there was no need for it to be deleted. In addition, your source's intention to include Foster's statement in the article was to illustrate the contrasting beliefs of the origin of poker from the 30s to now. Your source's author did not intend the statement to be factual. However, even if you may not have intended it, since you only showed Foster's statement, then added that a group of historians are "challenging" it, it is implied that Foster's statement is heavily supported by evidence (it is supported by no evidence), and a group of radical thinkers are somehow opposed to the dominant theory. (when in fact, every modern historian cited in your own source seems to disagree with that statement).

Of course, the discrepencies between historians over the course of 70 years is fine to include in a jouranlistic article, but for an encyclopedia, it is not appropriate. An encyclopedia is meant to report that facts, and Fact: 1) As Nas is very similar to poker, and 2) As Nas has no evidence of its existence until 1890, is sufficient enough. The disagreements between historians 60 years apart is clutter, and has no need in the history section. However, it would be appopriate to include the debate in a seperate section on the poker article, but it should be clarified that most of the debate is pure speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Pochspiel and as nas

One of the earliest known games to incorporate betting, hand rankings, and bluffing was the 15th century German game Pochspiel. It closely resembles the Persian game of as nas, though there is no evidence of its existence prior to 1890.

Everything after the comma in this 2nd sentence is confusing. There's no evidence of what's existence? Pochspiel? As nas? If the former, why is it a 15th century game? Tempshill (talk) 16:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The confusion is probably due the fact that there have been multiple editors involved in the history section. The paragraph is simply a listing of games that may have had a possible ancestor with poker, including poque, pochspiel, As Nas, brelan, brag, primero, etc. "It's" is referencing As Nas, and I orignally wanted "no evidence of As Nas' existence prior to 1890", but I thought repeating the subject without using a pronoun would have sounded repetitive. If the sentence is unclear, then perhaps it needs to be reedited. --Jtd00123 (talk) 03:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: Another reason for the confusion is that a user decided to add two sentences that describe the disagreements between multiple historians on As Nas' relation to poker, on a paragraph that was clearly designed to only list games that have possible ancestory with poker. The user insisted that these sentences stay in for some wierd reason, so I decided to let him keep it. Because of this, it looks like the paragraph is implying that As Nas and Pochispiel are the same game. Also, I think it is clear that "the German game Pochspiel", and the "Persian game As Nas", are two seperate games, so I think changing the 'its' to 'As Nas' is sufficient enough. --Jtd00123 (talk) 03:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There is another "article", Bluff (game), that states a different predecessor to poker. This is a content fork. The article has no references, so probably should be deleted rather than integrated and redirected here, but if anyone wants to save it and try and ref the claim, go ahead. 2005 (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Links

Instead of Late Night Poker, how about a link to World Poker Tour[3]? World Poker Tour is both a bigger show, and arguably the show that started the whole TV poker craze. --Horkyborky (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The article links to the World Poker Tour article already. 2005 (talk) 22:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to keep Pochispiel listed in the article

Another "new user" wants to delete Pochspiel's existence and the fact that As Nas has no evidence of its existence prior to 1890? It always seems to happen when someone is adding new information in the history section. This is starting to get old.--Jtd00123 (talk) 07:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)