Talk:Circumcision

Name

Isn't circumcision both male and female, therefore when circumcision is searched for it should link to an article about circumcision as a whole, including male and female circumcision in brief, and link to each of the main articles on circumcision according to gender. In a similar way searching for China will take you to the China article, which is about China as a whole and links to each of the main articles about the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China as both are equally China. Or similar to if someone searches for Ireland links them to the Ireland article about Ireland as a whole, which links to the main articles of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as both are equally Ireland.

I suggest an article called Circumcision, which is about both male and female circumcision, and the article links to a main article on male circumcision and a main article of female circumcision/cutting as both are equally circumcision. I can't see any better way of resolving the naming dispute than that and it resolves erroneous idea of circumcision being male only. Circumcision is both male and female, regardless of whether one is promoted and the other discouraged, or one is more popular than the other. This is an encyclopedia to state the facts, not to pander to certain political ideologies, pursuations, or be religiocentric to certain religions. Usergreatpower (talk) 06:30, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This has been brought up many times over the past years (please see the 40+ pages of archives). In English, the term "Circumcision" is almost exclusively used to refer to the male version. We already have a hatnote at the very top of the article directing people to Female genital cutting for female circumcision. Recasting the article would be an WP:NPOV violation of WP:UNDUE. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with Avi's analysis. If anything the current title is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. This issue will never go away until it is corrected. We have recently had an attempt to change the name as you suggested Usergreatpower but were too split to reach any consensus. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

If, as we are told, in the English language circumcision almost exclusively refers to male circumcision – how come then that OED makes no reference at all to 'female genital cutting' and only refers to 'female circumcision' under the 'circumcision' entry? In fact, in the current (far more popular) concise version, it goes further than that and under 'circumcision' only goes into the detail of what female circumcision is:

the action or practice of circumcising and (in some cultures) the traditional practice of cutting off the clitoris and sometimes the labia of girls or young women.

It sounds to me like someone is engaging in some very original research with that “almost exclusively” claim, because the OED is by far the most widely accepted arbiter of the English language. Finn (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Avraham ("Avi") has one opinion, but this matter is in fact disputed. I believe the article should be called "male circumcision," as that's what this article is about. You can read the views and policy presented in the latest Requested Move here and add your voice to the discussion about how we can resolve this dispute.

Finncalder ("Finn"), the compact OED defines "circumcision" as a derivative of "circumcise," which discusses the circumcision of both males and females.[1] Blackworm (talk) 07:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Blackworm, we know that you and I disagree on this issue, as we disagree on whether or not circumcision, as a whole, should be permitted or forbidden. However, as the most recent move request filed (that you linked to) has shown, and the others that proceeded it, there is no consensus to move away from the accepted current definition that the article now shows. As the first reference shows (and a perusal through the archives for the multiple times this has been discussed) I still maintain that the majority of definitions, and certainly the colloquial usage in the English language, associates the unvarnished term "circumcision" with the male version. We prevent any misunderstandings with the first hatnote. -- Avi (talk) 14:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Very pretty Avi. Anyone who uses colloquial gets points with me. Yes our viewpoints are known. The point is your initial statement encourages the status quo instead of pointing out a split debate that lacks consensus. The very fact that it is continually brought up should tell you something. Let's reverse things momentarily shall we? If the article's name was "Male circumcision" do you think people would continually come to the page and say hey this should be changed to just "Circumcision"?Garycompugeek (talk) 16:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you enjoyed my vocabulary . Gary, the very fact that the article was created as Circumcision and not as "Male Circumcision" is extremely telling in and of itself, no? -- Avi (talk) 16:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. I am assuming one person started the article and numerous others joined in. That said then only one person made the initial decision and band wagon followed. Perhaps that is why we have 40+ talk pages with name change discussions? You also dodged my previous question with one of your own. I have tried to answer yours. Quid pro quo. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Avi, the fact that an article was created as circumcision tells us only one thing: that the person who created it thought it should be created as such. To suggest anything else is as bizarre as your constant, and quite tiresome, inference that only orthodox Jews can possibly have a true understanding of Judaism and be qualified to comment on it. Finn (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Finn, I have never said that Orthodox Jews have the only true understanding of circumcision. I do feel that if we are to discuss the Jewish traditional technique, we need to go to the Jewish traditional sources, and not the Catholic Encyclopaedia or a website of people who could not read the Jewish sources if they tried. That is all. I apologize if you were made to feel uncomfortable by anything I said. -- Avi (talk) 18:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides the fact that the directors of circumcision.org are likely not Orthodox, and perhaps not even observant, they are not reliable for the purposes of traditional Jewish law. .. despite the fact that much of their information comes not from the Catholic Encyclopaedia, but from the Jewish Circumcision Resource Centre; who - despite having the support of many observant rabbis - on account of not being orthodox, I presume aren't qualified to comment either. I was simply commenting, not looking for an necessary apology. I'm a big boy, Avi; I can take it ;) Finn (talk) 19:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. My meaning was that their non-Orthodoxy would indicate that they were not cognizant of the traditional sources in and of themselves. They remain an inappropriate source for the tradition in my opinion as they are unlikely to know the tradition and understand the source texts and legal case precedents, as well as their being less interested in tradition and more in modern interpretation. By all means, they are an excellent source to substantiate the fact that many Jews in the modern era no longer practice, or support the practice of, circumcision, but I do not believe that that particular fact is being contested. -- Avi (talk) 19:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Gary, I was not trying to be facetious. It is a time-honored rhetorical practice to respond to a question with another question that itself points out problems with the original question. Back to the matter at hand, my point was that notwithstanding, and agreeing the existence of, alternative interpretations of the term "Circumcisison", the fact that the article was created as "Circumcision" ipso facto demonstrates the connotation of the term. The early discussions that compared this article to the practice of female genital mutilation did not call for this article to have its name changed (See Talk:Circumcision/Archive 2). The first discussions about this were in response to a non-consensual page move in 2004 (See Talk:Circumcision/Archive_5#Page_move). Since then the issue has been raised semi-regularly and the continued consensus each time was that the current title, with associated hatnote (my addition, if I recall correctly), is the most appropriate version. I understand that this is not very appealing to people who share your point of view, but each time, there has been no consensus to change. I understand consensus can change over time, but this has not happened over the past four years, and I do not see it happening in the future. I will ask you to step into my shoes now, Gary. If over a period of around 48 months it had been demonstrated that the consensus was for the article to be named "Male circumcison", and every few months, like clockwork, the naming issue was raised to move the article to "Circumcision," and every few months teh same arguments were rehashed, and no consensus was ever shown to approve the move, and yet it continues and continues, how would you feel? -- Avi (talk) 18:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

"...and the same consensus was shown to deny the move" -- Please rephrase or strike that comment, Avi, since there was "no consensus" to deny the move. The result was not "no move" but "no consensus," and here is the proof. Strike your false comment. Blackworm (talk) 18:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Blackworm, you are correct that the wording should be more precise. I have changed it. -- Avi (talk) 18:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Although to call it "false" is a pretty strong comment; 'twould be more civil to say "please rephrase it to more accurately reflect what occurred." WP:CIVIL is just as important aguideline as WP:NPOV -- Avi (talk) 18:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

What's false is false. It's more incivil and damaging to play loose with events and discussions of what consensus was reached in a discussion, than to point out these falsehoods. Blackworm (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I respect your dedication, Blackworm; it is commendable. However, please remember that wikipedia is not a vehicle for disseminating wp:The Truth. That may be an inherent flaw in wikipedia, but that's the truth (pun intended :) ). -- Avi (talk) 21:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Prolly pretty tired of defending it but don't you see Ari that's just the point. Its not the other way around and I do not believe I would have to incessantly defend it because the article is in fact all about male circumcision. Do I believe circumcision in the english language commonly refers to males? Yes. However circumcision is applied to both sexes regardless of the fact that the "Female circumcision" article title is "Female genital cutting". Why is there no mention of this in the article? This article should either talk about both sexes (we can always stub out to separate in depth articles for each sex) or change its name to "Male circumcision". To do less is to pretend female circumcision does not exist. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

We do reference Female circumcision, immediately after the title, in the hatnote. The proper term for the procedure, be it FGM, FGC, or FC, belongs in its article, not here. -- Avi (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Right we give females a hatnote, how quaint. I think they deserve a little more than that. We call the article "Circumcision" with hatnote stating it is male and to see FGC for female circumcision. We don't even have the decency to call the article female circumcision. Looks pretty dodgy to me. Consequently "Female genital cutting" seems to have the same name change issues as this article. Now why do you think that is? Garycompugeek (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant to this article, Gary, that needs to be discussed in the FGC article. "Decency" is in the eyes of the beholder as well, Gary. What to you seems indecent to others may be a necessity; regardless, that discussion does not belong here, in my opinion. -- Avi (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh contraire. It is all part of a same cascading problem. It starts right here at Circumcision. This is exactly the kind of attitude that contrbutes to it Avi. I'm assuming good faith with you and not pointing fingers. Just trying to illustrate where a problem starts and how to fix it. We were talking about the hatnote on this page that leads to FGC and while I agree name change discussions for that article belongs on Talk:Female genital cutting the overall issue starts right here and encompasses both articles. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Garycompugeek is absolutely right. Avi has shown no compelling rationale for labeling male circumcision "circumcision" and excluding female circumcision from "circumcision." Circumcision means to circumcise, whether you are circumcising males or females.[2] Those who vehemently support male circumcision and have a disregard for encyclopedic, scientific, non-ambiguous language wish to present female circumcision as something that isn't "circumcision," in order to separate the ideas, and thus the norms and standards applied to circumcision. We should not allow that to happen in Wikipedia. Blackworm (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Blackworm, you mean other than Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name, right? I wouldn't want you to accidentally say something false, you know . Although it is too late, in that your comments above contradict the evidence at Talk:Circumcision/Archive_34#Why only male circumcision?. I would be more than willing to believe that you forgot I had discussed this before, but I know you are someone to whom the truth is paramount and falsehood is an anathema, so I figure that you would want to adjust your wording above. In any event, let me remind you that w:The Truth is not something wikipedia strives for, for what that is worth. -- Avi (talk) 21:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, the most easily recognized name. But "circumcision" isn't a name owned by those claiming it to only "truly" apply to males. (w:The Truth indeed.) The most easily recognized "name" for circumcision is "circumcision." Circumcision is the cutting off of the prepuce in males or the clitoris or other genital parts of females (including the female prepuce, the clitoral hood).[3][4]] The fundamental difference between our approaches is that you seem to believe that the circumcision of males is so universally and overwhelmingly more important than the subject of circumcision in general, that the general article about male circumcision should be called "circumcision" -- rather than being unambiguous while still using the common, easily recognizable term "circumcision" (a privilege denied about a year or two ago to female circumcision). It seems as if it's more important to you to implicitly claim the word circumcision as really only meaning male circumcision than it is for you to allow the universal English language reader to instantly understand what forms of circumcision this article discusses. That's not acceptable, and violates WP:NPOV and WP:UCN. Compare, for example terminology used in the UN: [5] [6][7][8] A political organization which is praised for its neutrality and sensitivity to differing culture, their consistent use of disambiguating terminology is a matter of record. Presumably, they would not do this were there no ambiguity in the term, circumcision -- or do you have an alternate explanation as to why they consistently say "male circumcision?"

Let me put it to you this way, Avi, if a native of Africa told you "In my village, they circumcised this child, and the child died," would you be inclined to ask the gender of the infant, or assume it was male, or not "truly" care which gender infant it was? (I would not care which it was, yes.)

And Garycompugeek's questions are right on point. Hey, here's an idea, let's try calling the article "Male circumcision" (with a redirect from "circumcision") for a while and see if we get more, or fewer complaints about the name of the article. If there's wide clamoring for a return to the old name, without any canvassing, and from editors who have read this discussion, we change it back. How's that for a compromise? Blackworm (talk) 03:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'd be happen to clarify or discuss any apparent contradictions, but I need you to be precise about what, specifically, I said that contradicts what, specifically, in that thread, please. Blackworm (talk) 08:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Avi I asked twice for an answer to my question (If the article's name was "Male circumcision" do you think people would continually come to the page and say hey this should be changed to just "Circumcision"?) and also (Consequently "Female genital cutting" seems to have the same name change issues as this article. Now why do you think that is?) which you have ignored is an answer in itself. You know why. You just don't want to say it. The archives say it all. This problem will not go away until corrected. Garycompugeek (talk) 23:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question directly, yes. I think more people would clamor for a move from MC to C than are currently active in trying to move C to MC. In all seriousness, Gary, that was not clear to you from my answers above? Regardless, I reiterate, that the article's current name and the numerous discussions that may be found in the archive continue to show that there is no consensus for a move to MC, and that C is the more appropriate name for the article per WP:MOS, colloquial usage, and connotation. -- Avi (talk) 03:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Please note also my reply above. Well, three editors against you isn't quite a consensus, no. I still believe discussion is how WP:NPOV wins over an old, "temporal default" consensus that is now shown to be genuinely in jeopardy -- whether that discussion results in new consensus for or against the change. That's why I'm not impressed by the authoritative tone you take here, claiming both implicitly (as in your first response above) and explicitly (in a later post that I forced you to redact) that the current consensus is opposed to the change. You are either talking about the old consensus which did not get replaced, in which case that's irrelevant (see e.g., WP:NPOV, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NPOV dispute), or you are asserting that a new consensus exists against the change, which is demonstrably false as the evidence shows. It would be nice if you made that clear. Blackworm (talk) 04:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Avi, All this nonsense about colloquial language looks like a bit of a diversion to me. If we were really addressing colloquial language, then I am pretty sure that 'cut' would be by far and away the overwhelmingly used term for male circumcision in casual conversation throughout the anglophone world. In a similar vein, the most common colloquial use of 'circumcision' is as part of the term 'female circumcision' - and when it is obvious that it is a female procedure that is being talked about, even the female' bit will be dispensed with. I will eat my yarmulke if I ever hear an absurd terms like 'female genital cutting' used in colloquial language. So, if you really want to push the colloquial thing, then I am quite happy to argue for the article to be renamed accordingly ;) Finn (talk) 08:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

It is nonsense and blatant violation of WP:NPOV. In my opinion this is done on purpose to distance male circumcision from female circumcision. "Circumcision" makes no mention of female circumcision (hatnote excluded) and female circumcision is called "Female genital cutting". Very convenient. Garycompugeek (talk) 13:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Previously, "female circumcision" was the term I was most familiar with, but it is a misnomer that inadequately describes many, if not most, of the cases. "Circumcision" does adequately describe the procedure as it applies to almost all men. That being said, I'm relatively neutral with respect to the title of this article. I use both terms (circumcision and male circumcision) interchangeably. If someone wants to propose a name change, they'll need to provide a factual basis for their argument, not personal opinions. Blackworm points to cases where the UN has used the term "male circumcision". There's no dispute that it is sometimes used by governmental organizations and appears in the literature, but is it the most recognizable term? That should be the basis for deciding this article's title. AlphaEta 14:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's more recognizable doesn't means it's not ambiguous. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That is correct. Whether or not the current title is too ambiguous must be adequately supported, not simply declared. AlphaEta 14:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Alpha the simple fact is the term "Circumcision" is not gender specific. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

However, Gary, that is acceptable per the manual of style (emphasis added is my own)

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

— Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name

The minor ambiguity is outweighed by the easily recognizable name. -- Avi (talk) 16:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• Finn, what brachah would you make on it? . The point about common usage is similar to AlphaEta describes above and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name states clearly. The term "circumcision" for centuries has been used to refer specifically to the male version, with the adjective "female" being added to refer to cliterodectomies only recently, and requiring the addition of the term female specifically because the unvarnished term is so associated with the male procedure. I understand that the genital integrity movement has a vested interest in changing that connection and linking the practice of cliterodectomies with that of foreskin removal, in order to have the natural European and Asian aversion to the former overshadow the latter and, thereby, try and subconsciously affect public opinion. That is their choice, but wikipedia cannot be the vehicle that is used for that purpose (See WP:NOT). While the term "male circumcision" is used, its usage is far, far outnumbered by using the term "circumcision" by itself to refer to a "foreskindectomy" (is that even a word ) and that is the most compelling reason why this article should not be moved. Political and sociological battles, as important as they may be, must be waged in a venue other than wikipedia. -- Avi (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• Gary, much of what I said to Finn, I would respond to you as well, except to emphasize that it is more that proponents of genital integrity are trying to conflate the terms than it is those not opposed to circumcision trying to intentionally separate the terms. -- Avi (talk) 14:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• Blackworm, I am still waiting for you to correct your remarks above, and as for authoratative tones, I think that deciding that someone was guilty of falsity as opposed to a less-than-optimal choice of words is rather authoritarian. Blackworm, I was impressed by the tone you had taken with Jake on your talk page, and I had thought that you had progressed to intelligent discussions on the issues. You do bring up reasonable points when you talk, but unlike Gary and Finn, in my opinion and experience, you seem to have a need to combine issues discussions with, sometimes subtle and sometimes overt, personal attacks, mischaracterizations, and other incivility that makes it difficult to continue issues discussions with you. You are obviously an intelligent and well-read person, and passionate about your beliefs, which is admirable. However, I believe that whatever benefits you add to these conversations may be outweighed by your style. I would like to continue to discuss issues with you as I have with Gary and Finn, but if you are going to continue to cast unwarranted (and as I pointed out above, hypocritical) aspersions, that makes it difficult. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The genital integrity movement? Give me break! I've never heard such blithering nonsense in all of my life. If this was about the genital integrity movement people would be asking for the article to be changed to what it really should be titled: Male Genital Mutilation – but no-one is asking for that. If you think this has anything to do with bias, then you are certifiably paranoid. The only bias is the blatant pro-circumcision bias of the article and the determination to maintain the current misogynistic article naming.Finn (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC) The simple fact remains as it has been for years with this article: Namely that certain vested interest parties are using Article Policy Poker to ensure that the article continues to serve as a propaganda toll and prevent it being developed along neutral lines. Finn (talk) 15:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Finn, may I suggest you read the contributions of TipPt, Nokilli, Dabljuh, DanBlackham, among others? I'm a relative newcomer to this article, having been working on it only from June 2006. However, if you would read the archives, paying attention to the contributions and edits of those I have listed, you will see this to be the case. It may not be the case from your perspective, but it exists, and, has been a factor in the discussions in this article from at least 2005. -- Avi (talk) 15:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and if I recall correctly, which I may not, MGM has been posted as a title for this article before too, so you see you are correct -- Avi (talk) 15:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No, Avi, you addressed genital integrity movement comments directly to me - and in so doing used passive-aggressive means to imply that I was supporting the title change in order to promote a vested interest. As for the archives, I have read them - I have followed this article for years and didn't think it worth getting involved in - and I have seen how you and Jake (to mention but a few) have relentlessly worked to skew this article. Simple fact is that YOU accused me, so now the gloves are off and I am accusing you with what I see. Cite whatever Wiki policies you like, but I can match you policy for policy .. so bring it on. You make it impossible for anyone to debate with you; so, fine, we can bring it down to your level if that is what you really want. Finn (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

(<-)I am sorry you feel that way, as I did not think I was addressing any bias on your part, but what I have seen is a general issue, but, if you feel that way….

Speaking of bias, Finn, I went to your userpage and found something that I did not know before, which may account for the intensity of your response. Before your last post, I was ignorant of your profile; but now knowing so, I may I ask, based on your responses above, if you are categorically stating that your opinion that “…the ritual (and generally inept) circumcision of infants amounts to barbaric mutilation…” has absolutely no bearing on your position as to the name of this article? -- Avi (talk) 16:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Point me to anything I have said that reflects an attempt to impose my bias .. go on, just one single thing. And if you bothered to read the rest (you probably did, but it probably wasn't convenient), you will also see that I find both extremes of the debate as detached as I find Jake's supposed neutrality totally laughable. I am a scientist - and like any good scientist I am quite capable neutrality, even where I have a strong opinion. So you didn't think you were addressing a bias on my part, yet you suddenly (and quite out of context) start talking to me about the genital integrity movement? Sorry, Your disingenuity really doesn't do you any credit. Finn (talk) 16:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am glad to hear you say that . I'm not a scientist, only an applied mathematician, so perhaps I am less capable of neutrality. Regardless, I have no reason to believe that you are trying to push a political position, but that does not change the fact that those who are trying to push said position (you know the history of this article and its editors) are attempting to push the name change with more force than anyone else.

If so, am I correct in understanding that your main thrust for changing the name of the article is that you believe it is less ambiguous, similar to Gary's argument above? I believe that is addressed by the quotation from the manual of style I brought above. -- Avi (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe the change would less ambiguous, a step towards neutrality and a big step away from the misogynistic undertones of the status quo. I am at a total loss as to how the proposed change could be seen as promoting, or a victory for, the genital integrity movement – and if I did see it as that, I would, as a matter of principle, oppose it with the same vigour that I would oppose a change to Male Genital Mutilation.Finn (talk) 16:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

As for ambiguity, as I posted above, a reasonable small amount of ambiguity is preferred to none when the former is the more common usage, more recognized, and allows for easier linking, all of which I believe is true with the current article name. Secondly, how does this article promote misogynistic tendencies? There may be fundemental issues with the article currently parked at FGC, and perhaps it needs renaming, but that does not mean that we are allowed to make a WP:POINT about F(G)C/M or whatever it should be called by changing C to MC. -- Avi (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That is the whole point though, I don't think that ownership of 'circumcision' does reflect current usage - in fact far from it. I don't think the article promotes a misogyny; but I do think that the article title promotes a shamefully misogynistic view.Finn (talk) 16:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to again ask Avi specifically what remarks he believes needs correcting, and based on what specific evidence. I'd also like to point to Avi's statement, "that does not change the fact that those who are trying to push said position (you know the history of this article and its editors) are attempting to push the name change with more force than anyone else." I ask Avi specifically who he is referring to, i.e., which editors here are now currently pushing, as Avi says, "a political position." Finn nailed it -- Jakew, Avi, Nandesuka, and Jayjg worked as a team for years, unopposed, skewing this article into a POV mess, but eventually WP policy and the involvement of editors who refused to have their heads bitten off, and actually learned what Wikipedia policy rather than blindly taking the interpretations of these four, has resulted in a more neutral, more balanced, more encyclopedic article. It's only going to get better from here. Nandesuka is now leading the charge against the female circumcision article having its title changed back to "female circumcision", while Avi leads the charge here against disambiguating "circumcision," while suggesting the problem is at female genital cutting (but certainly not offering his support for a name change there). Their arguments, when actually about the content and not editors, are weak and based in misinterpretations of policy. I'm confident they will eventually realize this. Blackworm (talk) 18:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this relevant?

This was recently tucked into the HIV section:

According to Valiere Alcena [4], it was he who first hypothesised that low rates of circumcision in Africa were partly responsible for the continent's high rate of HIV infection.[102] He did this via a letter to the New York State Journal of Medicine in August 1986.[103] He also alleges that the late Aaron J. Fink stole his idea when Fink published a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine entitled A possible explanation for heterosexual male infection with AIDS, in October 1986.[104]

Any objections to moving this to one of the subarticles? I guess it's interesting, but is it notable enough for the main circ article? More importantly, if these people are still alive, are the refs up to par? Thoughts? Complaints? Accusations of pro- or anti-circ bias? AlphaEta 19:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Who added it? I don't think removing the arguments as to who was responsible for the hypothesis that circumcision reduces HIV risk is a problem, as long as the discussions (and supporting evidence to the discussion) remains. However, I agree with you that it would be an appropriate addition to the Medical Effects sub-article. -- Avi (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)