Talk:G8

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PLEASE NOTE

The listed nations are not done by wiki users preferences but only reporting what is reality. China or India, etc are not on the list NOT because some wiki users don't like them but BECAUSE officially the organization is structured that way.

-G

Where is china ?

China should be in G8 i don't understand this.China has the 4th biggest economy in the world and probably will pass Germany in 2008 , why china is not there and Italy that has a economy much more weak is? Augusto Fontes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.53.160.122 (talk) 16:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, i am agree. In fact, in modern times Spain has the 8th economy in the world more important that Canada economy. Why is Canada in G8 and not Spain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.27.17.46 (talk) 18:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Continuing on that subject .. the section Economic Power says that all 8 countries are in the top 10 countries by GDP, "(see the GDP list and the PPP list)". But if you go to the GDP and PPP lists, you don't find all the countries in the top 10 (GDP lacks Russia, PPP, a completely unrelated statistic at the national level, btw, lacks Canada). I'm the last person to want to call out Russia, I thought that move by Clinton was one of his better international moments. But I'm pretty sure that the data's been that way for a number of years. So I'm going to be bold and replace the "see GDP and PPP" bit with a {{{fact}}} — robbiemuffin ^{page talk} 01:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually I didn't need to do that, so I just removed the link to PPP. Because the GDP data from the CIA world factbook does in fact go against the grain,s o to speak, with the other two sources. — robbiemuffin ^{page talk} 01:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I would imagine the pressure to include Spain is lessened considerably by EU representation, whereas not including Canada would leave a major economic power - and crucially, the one most important to the United States - completely out of the loop.

There's also the intangible question of 'first-teir' economic status. Spain would be the poorest / most underdeveloped of the 'G7' countries (e.g. as measured GDP/capita), whereas as of 2008 Canada is probably the richest (passing the United States). Although that's a whole other can of worms (like, why 'poor' Italy and not rich Sweden or the Netherlands).

Re: China, Brazil, India, etc. that goes to the question of whether the G8 is principally an economic forum, or a strategic political alliance of like-interested countries. The open question of continued Russian membership will settle that in the near future most likely. -- stewacide (talk)

G8/G7

I realize my edit has been deleted more than once already, and that is why I'm commenting here instead of just making changes, but I really thik we should mention(in passing - say - in half a scentence) that the G7 still exists and still has multiple meetings a year, it is a common misunderstanding to assume it does not and the article does nothing to clear this up. Jethro 82 18:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have references that back this up? I'm sure if you add on the talk pages they'll take you more seriously. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

EU

Per User talk:Lucy-marie/Archive 3#G8 template and Talk:G8/Archive 1#EU inclusion the EU stay in the infobox. Any comments of "I don't agree" or "consensus can change" are irrelevant , the inclusion is backed up by referenced sources, so please produce sources to support your position. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The EU are not a member and should not be included as such and incusion in the infobox is confusing and creates this ambiguity. The BBC facts section and leaders section back this up here:[1]. Also alot of other international orgaisations attend so if you include one you should really include the lot. I say create a seperate template for International organisations which attend the G8 meetings.--Lucy-marie 16:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The amended template is not in any way ambiguous, neither is the current version of this article (which is what was agreed to previously) with the EU being in a seperate part of the infobox with "Also represented" above it. The source you have provided explicity states the EU are represented, yet it does not mention these other organisations you refer to. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It gives off the impression they are the only International oranisation with any represenatation. This is not true as the AU UN WHO are also represented to name a few. This is why I say have a seperate template for the International organisations and the memeber states.--Lucy-marie 16:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have sources similar to the ones produced in the previous discussion? I don't see anything except opinion. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This source here shows the UN being represented at the Gleneagles summit by Koffi Annan [2] so It is not just the EU represented at the summit. I shall find more sources later.--Lucy-marie 22:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This source here [3] confirms the CIS attended the St Petersburg summit.--Lucy-marie 22:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This source here [4] confirms the AU commissioner attended the Gleneagles summit.--Lucy-marie 22:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The evidence provided last time showed that the EU had attended every G8 meeting since 1977, not just the odd meeting here and there. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Further more they have far more representation than any other organisation. Just look at the photos to see that, who is sitting at the table? The G* leaders and the EU President - not the UN. Who is standing along side the leaders in "family" photos? The EU Presidents. However I agree it can be misleading to say they are the only other ones there as the current term suggests - how about changing it to "regular represention"? - J Logan ^t: 08:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact, how come the Council President isn't in the infobox? The EU is represented not only by the Commission President but the President of the European Council. Is there a reason he is not in the infobox? (assuming the EU stays) - J Logan ^t: 08:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I say the EU should not stay because the info box and template can and probably will get very messy. The attendance of the EU at the summits since 1977 is covered in the main text quite explicitly. I advocate the creation of a new template for International organisations at G8 summits and the main bulk of the text for them in the G8 article.--Lucy-marie 12:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

As stated above, your opinion doesn't really matter here, the EU isn't being removed on a basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a discussion and not a place to attack another user I am now going to report you for being an abusive editor. I have not directed comments personally at you and have tried to further the discussion, It seems however all that is wanted to be done is the continual personal attacking and dismissal of comments. I have tried to be reasonable but shall not stand for this any longer.--Lucy-marie 12:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see what I said right at the top, and what was said on your talk page - User talk:Lucy-marie/Archive 3#G8 template. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In particular, here's the exact quote with emphasis added - This is obviously a controversial topic and previous discourse was led by one side who did the research, provided relaible sources showing the current version was the appropriate course of action and the other side just argued and said they did not want it there, but provided no reliable sources to support there argument. You're just repeating last time, and it's a pointless exercise in timewasting. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Evidence has been provided by myself to show the attendance at summits of other International organisations. You have failed to provide evidence for your side. You are merely saying this was said last time and this was the outcome. This is not last time this is now and this is a new discussion. The previous discussion while valid is not the only discussion allowed on the topic. This discussion is just as valid if not more valid as it is more up to date in views evidence and opinion all of which are valid regardless of another persons' opinion.--Lucy-marie 12:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see the link to the first discussion in my first post on this page - Talk:G8/Archive 1#EU inclusion. I see no point in duplicating everything that was said there. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Going back to the actual issue, if you see here: "The EU has become a full participant in the G8 Summit process but does not chair or host a Summit." and here and here you see the EU listed along side the G8 member countries. Here again shows: "In the 1981 Ottawa Summit, the European Commission President fully participated in all summit discussions for the first time, and has done so ever since." Further more, here it states: "The European Commission is not a G8 member country but has all the privileges and obligations of membership except the right to host and chair a Summit. The Commission has all the responsibilities of membership, and what the President endorses at the Summit is politically binding on him too." I hope I don't have to dig out more to show that the EUs role at the summit it s tad more than a "guest" like other invited leaders? - J Logan ^t: 18:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

only half have nuclear weapons, not "almost all"

All do have nuclear power plants.

Only US, Russia, France, and UK have weapons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.175.150 (talk) 06:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Fixed, it was amended recently to give the sentence a different meaning. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 06:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The sentence in the intro (7 of the top 8 positions for military expenditure, and almost all active nuclear weapons.) was correct, but there have been numerous edits by editors who, quite frankly, have not read as carefully as they should, taking it read that "almost all G8 countries have nukes". They have edited to say that half have nukes, or have inserted the word "have". The point is that most of the nukes in the world belong to G8 members. To avoid pointless edits and subsequent reverts in future, I've added a few words into the sentence which make it clear. Emeraude (talk) 13:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is true, however this is also very much a Cold War type of mentality valuing the amount of nukes over anything else. Leaving out China, Pakistan, India, most likely Israel and possibly North Korea is like saying that since they don't have as much as the US, Russia, the UK, and France that they are less important on the world scale. I believe that's a bit ethnocentrist.MustangAficionado (talk) 04:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

What rubbish. It's purely mathematicist! Emeraude (talk) 10:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, its a notable fact, nothing ethnocentrist about it.- J Logan ^t: 11:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Rubbish or not it's irrelevant and/or redundant to the topic in my opinion. It has already noted that they represent the majority of military power, shall we note the amount of jets and soldiers that have combined as well?MustangAficionado (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a reason why everyone is so keen not to have a nuclear war, their effect is slightly different from that of a jet. They are also seen as a symbol of super-power status.- J Logan ^t: 10:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you need the majority of the world's nuclear weapons to start that war? Do you need more than one? Should we denote their size, and total it? No, because it doesn't matter how big or how many a country has, simply that they has the propensity to engage in nuclear war. The amount of warheads is something Americans are still stuck on from the Cold War, the competition is over; let real politics resume. MustangAficionado (talk) 00:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

G8 attacks

I saw the picture that says

"Protesters try to stop members of the G8 from attending the summit during the 27th G8 summit in Genoa, Italy by burning vehicles on the main route to the summit"

and think it should mention whether these attacks succeded in preventing the summit in any way ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it honestly true that 4 of G8 members have 95-99% of all nuclear arms....If one includes China and India both in the Outreach 5 it may be true...but surely not without. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RedBearII (talk • contribs) 21:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

G8 and Russia

Shouldn't there be a reason why it is sometimes called g8 and russia? I think we should put it in there to make the article less confusing. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 20:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Angela Merkel

Since Angela Merkel is the only woman in the G8 that might be notable to highlight. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I believe the sex of a member should have nothing to do with their politics. And the fact she is the first woman member, in this day, should not be that suprising. I feel your comment is very sexist. And, you can't get overthe fact men and women can be in a position of power equally, and be equally capable (caeteris paribus). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.16.57.201 (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone called "Grawp" Really trashed this the article. I think I fixed it though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Connington (talk • contribs) 08:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh yeah... why is the bottom part of the article part of the table? Edit: nevermind someone must have fixed it

can someone change it to President Bush, not President Obama? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.254.147.8 (talk) 22:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Italy?

Why is Italy in the group? There are countries more industrialized who deserve more to be in the group than Italy. Mafia perhaps?

72.12.140.32 (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Such as? --89.97.35.70 (talk) 00:08, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

German Translation

Shouldn't the German translation of "Group of 8" be in the infobox also, as Germany is a member? And as there are no Spanish speaking countries in the G8 (unless you include the US) this should be a more important than Spanish. I don't know German so someone will have to help me out here. Danielfranklin78 (talk) 18:10, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The term is Wirtschaftgipfel. --Tenmei (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't China replace Italy in the list?

I think that China should replace Italy in the list of G-8 countries. China is the 4th powerful country (economy-wise) and Italy has a weaker strength. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.82.166 (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "China is the 4th powerful country (economy-wise)". Irrelevant. Italy is a member of the G8, China isn't, and this article, like anything in an encylcopaedia, is about what is. Whether or not China should be a member of the G8 is another question. Emeraude (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to do with the fact that the G8 are also technical allies, and all of them are democracies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.56.215 (talk) 19:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:MOS (flags)

This seemed like it might be a grey area .... The following was copied from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (flags)#G8:

Question: The article about the G8 incorporates a Wikitable; and flags are posted as a quick graphic device to distinguish amongst the 34 summits which have been held since 1975. This use of the flagicon-template is helpful; but I do not know whether it will be perceived as consistent with the guidelines for flags. If not, why not?

Answer: The table in question would be considered appropriate because it's a list in which the flags are useful for navigation. The way to avoid future problems is simply to read the guidelines (and discuss the matter here if you don't like them!) Cop 663 (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

In the context of this article, if a flagicon-template were to be questioned in future, this brief exchange could help speed up the process of resolving any problems cropping up.--Tenmei (talk) 17:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

G8+?

Should the EU be categorized "permanent"? Or perhaps better categorized as just one amongst a number of leaders from international organizations -- on the same basis, in a sense, as the Secretary-General of the United Nations or the President of the World Bank?

As I understand it, your arguably correct viewpoint informs your recent edits to articles about the G8 summits. I'm guessing that you think that the G8 should be a group of eight members -- that it is more than a bit little awkward when the "family photos" at the summits always present more than eight world leaders. In a G8 context, the issue becomes something to do with categorizing the EU ...:

European Union Jose Manuel Barroso, Commission President?

In the following template/pattern, I understand that you would prefer re-positioning the EU elsewhere:

• Canada
• France
• Germany
• Italy
• Japan
• United Kingdom
• United States

+

• European Commission

I think your edit is questionable -- not because it's illogical, nor even that it's not true -- but solely because you haven't yet offered a citation to support the edit.

• See Wikipedia:Verifiability -- The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.

In the absence of another cited source, the Reuters analysis which is cited at 34th G8 summit would seem to be controlling. Do you see my point? To summarize: it's not that you're wrong, but rather that you're not quite right either. What do you think? Can you upload a citation which verifies your reasoning and your edit? If yes, I would gladly help metastacize your edit throughout the entire array of G8-related articles. If not, I would feel justified in continuing to resist the very modest change you seem to be suggesting. Which is better? The bottom-line question becomes something like, "Which configuration is more readily verified?" --Tenmei (talk) 01:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The Source does not say the EU is a member of the G8 all it says it it was at the G8 summit. There is no mentioning in the sources about the G8 being a member or who the members are. The source simply states the Jose Manuel Barosso Is the EU commission president. Furthermore the sources uses the following language" Borroso also urged G8 leaders not to backtrack on their..."If the words other G8 leaders then ity would imply the EU was a member without the word "other" it implies they are just invited and decided to do a similar thing to the actual members.--Lucy-marie (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I appreciate your reasoning; and I can point to at least one citation which seems to affirm your analysis. See the next-to-last paragraph in a recent article in the Toronto Globe and Mail -- "Canada a laggard on African aid." However, I continue to believe that the configuration you've edited out -- the G8+1 listing -- was helpful and arguably better. Assuming your view is best, I wonder how you would construe the following:

"The European Commission is not a G8 member country but has all the privileges and obligations of membership except the right to host and chair a Summit. The Commission has all the responsibilities of membership, and what the President endorses at the Summit is politically binding on him too."

Similar language is found at the web page of the Delegation of the European Union to the United Nations, beginning with a more direct, declarative statement:

Who are the G8 Members? The G8 countries are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States. The European Commission President is a full G8 Member and has a leading role in representing the Union at the G8 summit. [emphasis added]

If this doesn't quite resolve this issue for us, what do you think might be more convincing? How can we find a way to move forward together? --Tenmei (talk) 20:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, a lot of media (like the globeandmail article) do not understand the issue of the EU and G8 and hence use the term "observer" even though there is no such thing with the G8. As more formal articles make clear, the EU has the responsibilities of membership, though it is not included as a "G9" because G8 stands for Group of Eight Nations, not Nations and Organisations. It has been a longer member than Russia, joining the year after Canada, and is always pictured along side the other leaders in photos (you never see a G8 only picture, always G8+EU) and flags on display always include the EU flag. Looking at the reality aI don't think there is any real controversy here and in fact we should correct the misconception that has arisen due to the G8 name in our role as an encyclopedia. The EU should be listed with the rest of the G8, as that is its role in the meetings, rather than listed with the UN which would be misleading as to its place at the summit. Further more, no complications would arise form this as the lists on most of these pages say "permanent members" not anything like "member countries" which would be exclusionary to an organisation.- J Logan ^t: 09:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I added the EC president to the articles since he took part, though this has been removed by Lucy-marie. I offered a valid citation on every page and the EU, as the stack of citations present show, is a practical member along side all the others - it only does not host meetings because it overlaps with other members and it is called G8 because G stands for group of nations and hence although the EU participates is its not a nation hence the name has not changed.- _J.Logan`^t: 15:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "feldman1" :
  • Feldman, Adam. [http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/07/05/problems-unity-progress-oped-cx_af_summit08_0707feldman.html "What's Wrong With The G-8,"] ''Forbes'' (New York). July 7, 2008.
  • [see above]

DumZiBoT (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

new french position

Discurso del presidente de francia (y protempore de la union europea) nicolas Sartozy avalando una expansion/modernizacion del consejo de seguridad de la onu y del G8, en la 63ª asamble general, el 23 de septiembre de 2008. sorry but i hope you can reed that, aniway see the video is in english and is relevant. i am "fero" in spanish wikipedia