Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland

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A related discussion

Hi. There's an ongoing discussion about the deletion of article "Towns in the Former RSK " [1]. The article is a list of Croatian towns that were occupied by greaterserbianists during Serbian aggression on Croatia in 1990's; direct occupation and rule from Serbia was hidden by self-proclaimed (and internationally unrecognised) para-state RSK.
Keeping this article would be a precedent for cases like "Towns in former Third Reich". Please, give your opinion. Kubura (talk) 07:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Survey 2008 - request from Piotrus

After years of lobbying, the survey is finally here. Please take a few minutes and participate in it. As a research of Wikipedia myself, I cannot stress the importance of this project. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Rescue of Jews by Polish communities during the Holocaust

This new article by Poeticbent has been tagged as a possible copyvio. Please help to rewrite the article and offer comments on talk in the ongoing discussion. Personally I don't think it is a copyvio, but input from others will be certainly appreciated - and the article does need some further expansion and rewriting. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

the article might also benefit from a change to the NPOV title: Treatment of .... DGG (talk) 20:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

why is the current title not NPOV? Loosmark (talk) 20:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Among other things (such as lack of balance) because the article does not describe "Rescue of Jews by Polish communities during the Holocaust" but instead gives a hodgepodge of individual examples culled from a single unreliable source. It lacks any reliable sources that verify what the title as it is now conveys. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

i understand the article is in the process of being rewritten or improved. probably the authors will add aditional sources. but how do you propose to describe the rescue of Jews by Polish communities if not by giving examples? i see no better way than that. the title seems correct to me. Loosmark (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The article is a collection of stories of aid to Jews (all lifted from the single compilation cited above), most if not all of which are by members of communities, and not whole communities. Hence the title is misleading and POV. There are instances where there were mass executions by Nazis and local collaborators of Polish villages charged with aiding Jews, which in no way definitively meant these were cases of "Rescue of Jews by Polish communities"--it could mean collective punishment for the acts of a handful of people, and generally it was Nazi terror tactics because there was partisan activity in the region. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:54, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

ok i read the pdf document, the "unreliable source" as you call it, and to me it looks credible. but of course if more sources are found the article will benefit. i don't understand very well your point about the title but if you have a better one i suggest you propose it on the talk page of the article. Loosmark (talk) 13:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliability is discussed here; the source seems relatively reliable.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No it doesnt. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 03:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The article, now Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust, includes several doubtful or wrong informations. Xx236 (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC) The List of communities is a disaster, it doesn't inform about anything.Xx236 (talk) 15:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I think in this particular matter that a collection of anecdotes proves nothing, and is not encyclopedic.. There were thousands of Jewish communities, and published and archival documentation is available, in at least one language, for almost every community. There are similarly tens of thousand of published and recorded and archived individual memoirs, also in various languages. Many of them will show the rescue or attempted rescue of Jews; many of them will show various degrees of acquiescence, or cooperation with the Nazis in their murder. Often the same village will have evidence of both--indeed, the very same person may have at different times done both. Prominent instances cases about which accessible books or films have been written can be discussed individually, whether for the village or the individual. (Actually, going village by village would probably be the best way to add such accounts, provided it was done in NPOV terms as treatment of... rather than limiting it to one half of the issue. The sources I am familiar with try to give both--the survivors were at least as anxious to perpetuate the memory of the rescuers as of the murderers.)

Most of my experience here in dealing with anecdotes has been for purported cures or harms in alternative medicine--where they are scrupulously removed, and for the good reason of not necessarily being representative. DGG (talk) 09:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

All the stories in the article are cited and verifiable. The article includes both specific stories (by no means all of them) as well as more discussion of general research. Just like books written on the subject matter do. The list at the end of the article definitely belongs there. I note that Xx236 doesn't bother to offer an argument or evidence but seems to believe that a strongly worded assertion is a sufficient substitute for such.radek (talk) 09:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Would you be so kind to read the Talk page of the article? I have quoted plenty of doubtful informations and precise data, coming probably from the IPN. Ukrainian nationalists murdered Poles as Poles, not because the Poles were helping Jews. If I'm wrong - give verifiable sources. Łomża diocese prints are hardly available. Xx236 (talk) 09:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding you - is it about specific cases?. But if you're right and have sources then yes, by all means, go ahead and change/delete it.radek (talk) 09:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that individual stories, little different from anacedotes, are of little use. But there is also quite a lot of research aimed at drawing more general conclusions, and that should be separated. And of course both should be separated from some heavy POV-pushing from both sides... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Grzegorz Gajewski

i started an article about the chessplayer Grzegorz Gajewski who is the member of the Polish team at Dresden chess olympiad which is in progress at the moment. unfortunately somebody tagged the article for speedy deletion due to lack of notability!?!? Loosmark (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Solution: remove tag, expand. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Category:Germany–Poland relations

The category seems to be dominated by WWII events. Should we create a subcat Category:Germany–Poland relations during WWII? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Polish war aims

Lower Silesia also became a Polish war aim, as well as the Baltic coast west of Stettin as far as Rostock and occupation of the Kiel Canal - I don't know anything about such war aims, even German sources don't confirm it. The source is allegedly a Naimark's book.Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The source is (not allegedly but definitely) this one: Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, Harvard University Press, 2002, ISBN 0674009940, p.123, confirmable online (e.g. here), written in English. The sentence is referenced by this book in a citenote, please confirm before starting multiple threads. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Xx236, it would make it much easier for uninvolved persons if you link the article in question

(i.e. Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II#Polish_interests).

If I had not introduced that sentence and source myself, I would by no means be able to figure out what exactly you are talking about (without doing a web search). You asked for the credibility of Naimark at the respective talk page. N. is a contemporary expert on the subject, Stanford professor, the book was published in Harvard, it's almost impossible to be more credible. I guess it would be better to continue this discussion at the article's talk page, so others won't need double post everything.

( Talk:Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II#Naimark.27s_credibility)

Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 10:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The source does not claim Rostock was Polish goal; it state that it aimed for occupation rights of Rostock. Szopen (talk) 12:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)