Talk:Left-wing politics

Archived discussion

• Talk:Left-wing politics/Archive1: un-sectioned discussion through Feb 2003 that led to roughly the present form of the article, Right-Left together, Liberalism, Political compass, "Nietzschean philosophies", Neo-leftism, typo correction, NAACP...
• Talk:Left-wing politics/Archive2: a lengthy NPOV dispute about "Leftism, Pacifism and 'War on Terror'".
• Talk:Left-wing politics/Archive3: Violence against Jews at French anti-war rally; (moved to an archive to give it a stable location, since it contains a useful translation from Hebrew, and the article links to that translation. Linking from the encyclopedia to an active talk page is not good practice. - Jmabel)
• Talk:Left-wing politics/Archive4: 1. Proposed split, 2. The recent NPOV dispute, 3. Leftism, Pacifism and "War on Terror", 4. A label defined by other labels, 5. Lists of parties: refactor?, 6. Europe, 7. Refactor, 8. Hegelians, 9. US Democratic Party left-wing?, 10. Left and anti-war in Europe, 11. Cut the nonsense away, 12. Parties, 13. "The left", 14. Canada, 15. RevolutionaryLeft, 16. Current NPOV status, 17. The Nattering Nabob, 18. Liberalism? only in the US!, 19. Watermellons, 20. Marijuana Party, 21. Liberal Party of Colombia, 22. Post-Left Politics, 23. Hitler was a leftist!, 24. The Labour Party (UK), 25. Too long on groups

"Perceived" crimes of Communist states?

This is from the 'Leftism and the Soviet Union' section of the article: "...some parts of the radical left extol all or some aspects of Soviet-style communism or that of Maoist China, while others loathe the perceived crimes of those regimes and denounce them at every turn."

Isn't it generally regarded that enormous crimes were committed by the Soviet Union and Red China? Whose is the perception that this is not a concrete fact? I think that the word "perceive" should be removed from that sentence. Trau

Although I have no problem considering such atrocities as "crimes" the word "perceived" is completely necessary. The murders did occur, weather or not they were actually criminal is subject to a debate, thus it would violate a neutral point of view to simply call these acts crimes since there are possible arguments that the killings have some justification. I could not conjure such an argument, though the fact these arguments exist is enough to warrant their "perceived" condition.--69.212.173.4 03:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Very confusing Edit comments by an anon

(not me, but looked into it.) The group should be apparently

• American Constitution Society for Law and Policy (not Politics as the recent Page History comment said) if google.com is right, etc, etc, ...!...

but the link is indeed presently at American Constitutional Society for Law and Policy. Will create the relevant redirect etc. later. Schissel : bowl listen 17:30, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Africa

Africa is noticably missing from the discussion, which seems to cover the rest of the world. I'm not qualified, but can anyone expand here?--Dvyost 5 July 2005 12:59 (UTC)

As is practically anywere that isn't (north) America or England.This is a big issule that needs to be sorted, unfortunatly most of are contributers are from one of those two places. One of the interesting things about africa and other underdeveloped countries is that their National liberation movments generally painted themselves as Marxist.--JK the unwise 15:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The African liberation movements can generally be placed in two categories: those which advocated African socialism and those based on more "official" Soviet-influenced Marxism, some of which later developed links with China. There were also - and still are - important trade union movements in many countries. While I couldn't contribute much on left-wing opposition to war in Africa, I might be able to work on some of the other sections. Warofdreams 13:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Left Wing Principles

I just edited the main page for this article and foolishly wasn't logged in at the time. So here is a good place to initiate further discussion.

The original article stated the "As this original reference became obsolete, the meaning of the terms has changed as appropriate to the spectrum of ideas and stances being compared." I felt that this is incorrect, and empirically so.

Left wing parties, regardless of their particular implementation of democracy, tend to support republican governments over monarchies, secular laws over state religions and religious legals codes, and natural or universal rights over national rights.

I don't think should be is a matter of any historical or contemporary dispute, but would be interested in hearing any contrary evidence. (User:Lev lafayette 12 July 2005)

• Certainly true on those points. Trickier on matters of political economy: the original Left with was laissez faire; within about two generations, Left had come to usually imply at least some element of socialism. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:32, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding me

The middle of this article reads like a republican campaign blog, it's a nice mix of France bashing, liberal bashing, and one section even equates all pacifists with terrorists, it's been re-written so many times it actually contradicts itself from paragraph to paragraph, can we either get a re-write, a deletion, or a POV tag for this thing --172.152.1.161 14:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

• Could you please be more concrete about what passages you have a problem with? No one is liable to be able to fix anything based on remarks this vague ("the middle of this article", "France bashing", "one section") -- Jmabel | Talk 04:14, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Overhaul

This page needs a majour overhaul. I have made a first bash at doing that. Firstly I have factored out the long list of left-wing parties and moved it to Political parties on the left, secondly I have added a some historical detail on the section about the left and oppositon to war, its still sketchy and will need improving but its a start.

Lots more needs to be done, here are some of the issules I beleive need to be sorted out:

• Removal of terms like "leftism" and "leftist", they are pajoritive slang much like "Commie" or "Blairite".

As a former career leftist (labor organizer) I don't think I agree with this. "Leftism" and "Leftist" have a place in an article about the term "Left-wing". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.81.245.111 (talk • contribs) 27 Aug 2005 (UTC)

• Needs a discution of the "left and Cuba", which could possibly go with "left and Soviet Union" and "Left and China", under heading "Left and Left-wing states" or soming like that.
• "The Post 9/11 anti-war movement" section needs majour reworking, as annon user 172.152.1.161 pointed out, it reads like a republican campaign blog. The majour issule is that it tries to deal with the critism of the anti-war movment as a whole as appose to spesifically the lefts relationship to the anti-war movement. The page Post-September 11 anti-war movement which it is a distilation of is similarly flawed and stands better as a general page on the anti-war movemnt then as a page about the lefts relation to it.

I have made a first bash at this removing ref's to Post-September 11 anti-war movement page and generaly reworked.--JK the unwise 15:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• A discution of the anti-capitalist and anti-globalisation movments that are largly seen as reinvigerating the left.
• A section on "The Left and trade Unionism"

--JK the unwise 14:21, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

1. I don't consider "leftist" at all an insult. It can be, when it is used on the right to describe someone 10 degrees left of center (i.e. nonsense like calling Bill Clinton a "leftist"), but certainly there are plenty of us who wear the label proudly.
2. I have said before that I'd be glad to have all of the stuff on the post-9/11 thing out of this article. It started out as an ill-informed anti-left diatribe; I worked at length to get it factual and well-cited, moved much material to Post-September 11 anti-war movement, but User:MathKnight insisted it belonged here. I think that, at most, this article should have a short summary, referring to that as the main article on the topic. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:34, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Maby the 'leftist' thing is a UK/US diff (our in US arn't you?), in U.K it is very rarely used and when it is generally only by those on the right as a quasi-instulting term. This whole article is a bit of a miss match. But I think the left and opposition to war/leftism and opposition to war is v. interesting maby it could have its own article eventually?--JK the unwise 11:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

In the U.S. left-winger is an insult, but leftist is generally not. I could make the obvious football joke, but I'll pass. FWIW, I am from US, but have spent well over 2 years of my life in London at one time or another, so I'm more bicultural in this respect than most.

The post-Sept 11 stuff has its own article. Is there anything on that here that isn't at Post-September 11 anti-war movement? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:43, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

In my opion the Post-September 11 anti-war movement should be deleted with its information factored into the Anti-war article or Popular opposition to war on Iraq and a new article specifically on the left and opposition to war/leftism and anti-war. This article should then just contain a summery and link to the left + anti war page. --JK the unwise 09:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

A great deal of Post-September 11 anti-war movement deals with the reaction on the left to the September 11 attacks and with opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan almost a year before the Bush administration publicly threatened war with Iraq. Given that, while some refactoring may be in order, Popular opposition to war on Iraq seems an unlikely choice. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:12, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

The words 'leftist' and 'leftism' smacks too much of slang for an encylopedia in my opinion. This article should at least be consistent in its usage of the terms. 80.203.115.12 15:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"Left-muslim alliance"

Considering that this whole article is based in a strong US point of view of left-wing politics, I'm not too surprised that it contains a section on "leftists are really islamists". While the article is rife with extrapolation and generalisation from individuals and small groups to all "leftists" without much justification or logic, this section is particularily bad. If this section is to be kept, I suggest that those who want to keep it should be more specific in their claims (as to which "leftists" they're talking about) and supply better sources while they're at it. Links to Geocities and to Wikipedia discussion pages doesn't really cut it in my opinion. 80.203.115.12 15:29, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

It's funny that you should say that, because the person who initially wrote most of that stuff (User:MathKnight) is not an American (nor even a native English speaker, as far as I can tell) and I (who am an American) toned it down from a very broad "the left and the Muslims are in a league with one another" during a lengthy POV/accuracy dispute. I also agree that, even toned down, it contributes little to the article, but Mathknight objected to it being removed, and I was attempting to reach consensus with him in our dispute over the material.

So please don't presume that this is a matter of nationality. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:25, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Taheri's "three themes" are preposterous and deserve no mention in a serious encyclopedia. 145.18.154.166 14:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Its bizarre that there is a chapter called "Left-Muslim Alliance" and still there is no mention of the Left inside the Muslim world. I'd suggest the whole chapter be removed. --Soman 14:12, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Notes

I have made the referenaces so that the link to a list of ref's at the bottom (as per Wikipedia:Footnote2ish), I have done this because; 1:It means we can include non-webbaced referenaces 2:It makes it easier to scan the list of ref's to assess it for bias 3:If links break can still know what they orriginally pointed to.
There are some referances which i think are of low/dubious quality:

• Number 6:? it seems to be broken.
  • Here it is on the Internet Archive: Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney remarks re. war

Replaced with that link.--JK the unwise 10:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

• Number10:Ramsey Clarke list, who is this demostrating that ANSWER and (to a lesser degree) NION have been targets of much criticism from within the left for their respective associations with the Workers World Party?
  • I don't understand your question, but FWIW NION never had associations with Workers World Party, the had associations with the RCP. If you clarify the question I can probably follow up on this. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:11, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

'Who' should read 'How' (sorry me dyslexia kicking in). The article contains the line about Answer and Nion being targets from with in the left for their assionation with WWP and provides that link (along with some other seemingly more relavant ones) to show this is the case, which it doesn't seem to do.--JK the unwise 10:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it looks irrelevant: it's our own article on Clark plus some rather arbitrary links. Might have had something more relevant at some past date, but since there was no date attached to the reference, damned if I'm searching the Internet Archive to try to find the possible relevance. I say drop it, unless someone wants to do the legwork. There is plenty of relevant material in the articles on ANSWER and NION. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:07, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Number11: Tracking Down A Fifth Column Front Right-wing giberish, surely some one more sane mush have made acusations of this sort which we can cite.
  • I agree it's crap, but I believe it is cited (or at least was, originally) as an example of the Right's use of Workers World, via ANSWER, as a means to red-bait the entire anti-War movement, while ignoring criticism of Workers World from within the Left. And it is an eminently good example of that. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

• Number 14:? Broken
  • Here it is on the Internet Archive: Authoritarianism and Anti-Semitism in the Anti-War Movement Tikkun May/June 2003. (Introduction to a special section). -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Replaced, by the way what is the Internet Archive? Surely not an archive of everything that has ever been on the internet?! If yes then wow thats a load of info saved.--JK the unwise 10:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

See Internet Archive. Naturally, they fall short of having everything that's ever been on the Internet (some sites ask not to be spidered, for example), but they are pretty darn close. This is always the prime source for recovering dead links, nothing else is within an order of magnitude. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:11, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Note15:The Banning of Rabbi Lerner orriginal can be found here [1]

• Note17:The London Streets, Who are these anti-Bush people? more nonsence on a personal site.

Just found the orriginal here [2]

• Note18: In Hebrew Could the translation of this me moved to wikisorce?
  • Probably not in its entirety: it is copyrighted material. I believe, though, that MathKnight at one point had translated the relevant passages on this page, they are probably archived. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Isn't a translation classified as a new peice of work? If not could we put a parcial translation on wikisource or mabey a subpage of this page, it just doesnt seem right to have it on an archived talk page (at mo it is here Talk:Left-wing politics/Archive3.

No, translation is considered derivative work. But I'm pretty sure this translation of an ephemeral source would be considered fair use. I don't know Wikisource's policy on fair use—if acceptable, we could put it there. Failing that yes, I imagine that this is one of the rare cases when a subpage would be in order, probably Left-wing politics/Translated sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:16, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Note19: In Hebrew I have no idea what this says as doesn't appear to be a translation.
  • Ditto. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

If there are any Hebrew speakers reading this could you please translate this article, even if only parcially.

Generally, if we could search for more academic type refs that would be good.--JK the unwise 12:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Terms like "Postmodernism" do not belong in politics

The term "Postmodernism" is a philosophical term that is never used by political analysts or political scientists and really has no meaning in the world of politics. It's really just one of those silly buzz words that people use more to feel better about themselves rather than to actually explain something. Having a section on the left and postmodernism makes as much sense as having a section on the left and existentialism. (Annon User: 68.118.218.128)

Actually, a discussion of the left and existentialism would make a lot of sense. In 19th century France, Spain and Algeria they were quite closely related; just read Camus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jberkus (talk • contribs) 37 Aug 2005 (UTC)

One of the problems with so called 'postmodernism' is that it revels in ambiguity, so it laps up criticism as to its ambiguity. Anywayz, I think post-modernism has been hugely infulencal to large sections of people who consider themselves part of 'the left' esspecialy amoungst those who have sort to break from tradtions they see as tarnished by Stalinism. It seems to me that post-modernism has mainly found a foothold in the academic left rather then wider organised left movments (prehaps because hardcore postmodernism has a certain distain for organising). However certain left-wing anti-globalisation trends such as 'automomism' seem to have postmodernist influences. On a finnal note, in France existentialism did have a large influence of the left and I would welcome a section on the left and extencialism, for one thing it would help this article to become less anglo/american-centric.--JK the unwise 09:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You're missing the point. You will not find the term "postmodern" in any political science text or used by any political analyst, and thus does not belong in an encyclopedic entry. Academic liberals have also been influenced by Hollywood movies, that does not mean there should be an entry.

Why did you move my complaint to the bottom? That doesn't make any sense. The old ones should be on the bottom so you don't have to scroll. You also shouldn't have changed my title.

I moved the comment to the bottom because it is general convention for older comments to go at the top. Examine the different dates on the comments thoughout this page and you will find it is so. Prehaps it is not the best convention but to start messing around with it now (without concensous) would be confusing. I didn't change the title of your section (see [3]), I did add a signiture, this is just so people can see which comments are by which people.

I may be missing your point as I don't quite see what it is. I have seen the term 'Postmodernism' used by plenty of politcal commentaters and read it in books on politics. Your analogy with Hollywood movies is wroungheaded as few American lefties have been infulenced in their political practice by 'Hollywood Movies' however they have be influenced (in their policial practice) my postmodernism. I am currently editing the section to improve it, see what you think of new version.--JK the unwise 10:41, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know postmodernism is also used in a political context. See also Richard Rorty. Electionworld 10:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Your understanding of politics is about as good as your spelling. I've taken many political science courses, read many political books, watched countless political discussions and I've never heard the word 'postmodern' used by anyone outside of obscure urbanites that like to overcomplicate the world by using terms that have no real meaning. The whole idea of something being postmodern is philosophical, and thus I could argue that the word is completely useless and you couldn't say otherwise. More so, the lack of its use in reputable publications would further support my argument.

Also, if you think that American leftists have not been influenced by Hollywood Movies than you must not have heard of Michael Moore.

Please don't attack my spelling (which is crap) to prove a point (which it doesn't). Participate in Wikipedia with the spirt of freindlyness. I hope that you do not feel that you are being treated unfairly by having your contributions reverted, wikipedia generally opperates by consensous so if you can convince others on this talk page that your position is correct it will be used.

I did not say that no Hollywood movies have influnced American Left-wingers rather that, American Movies as a group have not had a large influence on their pollitical practice. Of course individual (left-wing) films can have an important impact as can individual left-wing publications, without this meaning we should have a section 'the left and Movies' or 'the left and books'. However the relationship with Postmodernism is generally accepted as an important one. Of course I can not ask you to prove a negative, you claim that Postmodernism is not generally referanced in Political publications please cheack out the referances in the new version of the article for proff that you are incorrect.

Some times differences in oppions about what is and what is not generally talked about can be down to the country of origin of the contributer. I am writting from the U.K. were I maintian that Post-modernism and the left are oftern linked. Where are you writting from?--JK the unwise 11:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

68.118.218.128, JK happens to be rather dyslexic, but do you somehow feel that disqualifies him from being a competent scholar? If so, you're a bigot. If not, skip the ad hominems and stick to the substance of the matter. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:59, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It depends what you're idea of politics is. I've heard it used multiple times while discussing political theory and philosophy. (Annon User:64.168.12.237)

I'm not sure that the postmodern section really adds anything worthwhile. It is poorly written and is mainly a confused critique rather than a wiki entry. I think something probably should be mentioned about the important relationship between some academic leftism and postmodernist philosophy. Most the famous postmodernists/poststructuralists (particularly Lyotard and Foucault for example) saw their theories as profoundly politically radical. Postmodernism (as well as versions of pragmatism) claim that all understandings of truth and reality are historically and socially constructed, rather than being a mirror of 'the way things really are'. Leftists have often use these notions to undermine the taken-for-granted nature of the status quo, and to argue that much of what we take for granted has been generated by power relationships resulting in the oppression of subordinate social groups. As an alternative, they ground politics in localised struggles to transform culture in the interests of groups they perceive as oppressed.

Many in US political science are not too keen on ideas of postmodernism, but there is a lot more to the world of politics than US political science journals. (For a start, the United States is not representative of the entirety of academia, and there are more disciplines of relevance to politics than merely political science - eg. political philosophy.)

Someone mentioned Rorty. While Rorty is both a leftist and a pragmatist (which has similarities to postmodernism), he, unlike most postmodernists, is quite skeptical about whether postmodernist theory has anything to offer politics. In his own words, he "wavers" on this point. He thinks that practical programs of policy reform are of far more political importance than any abstract theory of truth, culture and reality.

And Fukayama a postmodernist? How so? Sure he believes that there should be no more great conflicts between metanarratives, but this is not because he believes metanarratives are dead, rather precisely the opposite. He believes neo-liberalism to be the ultimate utopian narrative to which all history has been working. This is about as un-postmodern as one can get. He also believes that politics and ethics should be based in a universal conception of human nature. This is partly what postmodernism set out to critique.

Perhaps I will just adapt what I wrote about postmodernism here to go in the article, when I get the chance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.18.3 (talk • contribs) 18 Sept 2005 (UTC)

• I generally agree with the above. Is Fukuyama still saying that history has ended? That was certainly his view right after the Cold War; is it still? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Don't know if he is still using that phrase... but he certainly still believes neo-liberalism to be what most postmodernists consider a grand narrative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.43.122 (talk • contribs) 20 Sept 2005 (UTC)

• I agree the section could benifit from some more on how those on the left (who take post-modernism to be important for left-wing philosophy/praxis) see post-modernism as fitting with left-wing philosophy/praxis. I would encorage you to be bold and edit the section, however wikipedia is not a place for original research so if you could referance any of the claims you make that would be good, also barring in mind that post-modernism is controvercial please don't present any interpretation as the right one.--JK the unwise 18:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Explain your reasoning

[Explain your reasoning] behind using "postmodernism" as a way of describing to the average person what a left-wing position is. Explain how this gives a person unfamiliar with the subject a useful understanding of what it means to be left-wing. (Annon User:68.118.218.128)

Postmodernism is not used to describe what left-wing is. The article is not saying that leftwing=postmodernism (which would be incorrect). The article is not just about defining it also aims to give background on related issules. Hence The left and china Section and The left and opposition to war section. The left and postmodernism section aims to give a person unfamiliar with issules surrounding 'the left' an understanding of how left-wing ideas have interacted with postmodernists ones.--JK the unwise 13:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Current NPOV dispute

Searching this talk page I can not find anything that gives a specific NPOV problem thus unless someone can clearly state one here I will remove the tag (it has most recently been added by annon user:68.118.218.128). I few things that could be whats at issule but need expanding.

• Africa is noticably missing from the discussion (User:Dvyost, 5 July)

This is true and a huge defect of the article but isn't a neutrality problem.

• The middle of this article reads like a republican campaign blog (Annon User:172.152.1.161, 27 July)

The article has had a majour overhall since this was written.

• the article is rife with extrapolation and generalisation from individuals and small groups to all "leftists" and the the left and opposition to war section is writtern from an 'leftists are really islamists' POV. (Annon User:80.203.115.12, 3 August)

As well as untrue, this is to general what lines exactly contain this POV and how do they do so?

• Terms like "Postmodernism" do not belong in politics (Annon User:68.118.218.128, 15 August)

The complaint is against the Left and postmodernism section but the complaint seems to be that it is factually incorrect that their have been any relationship between the left and postmodernism (which is itself incorrect). This is a factual dispute rather then a neutrality dispute. So I have replaced the NPOV tage with a {{dubious}} tag.

Since 68.118.218.128 has not advanced any further argument that this is the case and since Electionworld and Annon User:64.168.12.237 think that is not the case, I am removing the dubious tag.--JK the unwise 18:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

--JK the unwise 14:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Not a sentence

"Few left-wingers who supported one side in conflicts such as the Boer War." Does anyone know what this means to say? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:59, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

• Oops - I've fixed it, but really it could do with some more specific examples of left-wing opposition to wars prior to WWI. The Boer War is the only example I know any details of, but it would be interesting to discuss attitudes to (for example) the Crimean War or the U.S. Civil War. Warofdreams 10:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks for fixing.
  • U.S. Civil War: Left/right doesn't really apply very well to the U.S. at the time of the Civil War. The strongest opposition to the war in the North was from working-class Irish immigrants, but their populist/ethnically-based politics don't easily fit a left/right spectrum, and their opposition seems to have been more to the draft than to the war. The abolitionist movement, the strongest group in favor of Nothern prosecution of the war, of course, were largely tied to what in England would have been called "dissenting Protestantism": again not a group easy to classify in left/right terms, though I suppose more left than right, when it comes to that. I don't know much at all about the lines of support and opposition in the South; perhaps someone else could weigh in, but again I suspect it won't be easy to talk about in left/right terms; not a lot in the U.S. before the 1880s or so is. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

This discussion proves that it doesn't really make sense to use left/right terms. Electionworld 06:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No, it shows that it doesn't really make sense to use left/right terms to talk about the U.S. at the time of the Civil War. One might as well say that it doesn't make sense to talk about Guelphs and Ghibellines because they lack relevance to 21st century China. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:33, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

In terms of the U.S. Civil War, while American politics are hard to define in left-right terms at that point, one can look at, say, British and other European politics. The traditional conservative states (Russia and Austria) were generally sympathetic to the Union, because they saw the southerners as rebels, like the Hungarians or Poles who troubled those empires. In England, I know that the working classes, even in Lancashire cotton mills, tended to be sympathetic to the north. The elites were a mixed bag - it was expected that those more on the left, like Gladstone and Russell, would be more sympathetic to the north, while more conservative politicians like Palmerston would be sympathetic to the south, but Gladstone and Russell were probably the most sympathetic to the south of major British politicians. A weird mix. I do know that radicals like Bright and Cobden opposed the Crimean War. In France, it was mostly more conservative monarchist types who opposed Napoleon III's wars. Similarly, in the Franco-Prussian War, it was the left who wanted to fight on against the Boche, while the monarchist (and otherwise) right demanded peace. It's hard to make any categorical statements, though. john k 07:27, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, absolutely, on the American Civil War I was only thinking in domestic terms. The UK was up against the weird situation that its generally anti-slavery principles ran smack up against its cotton-buying low-tarriffs-in-the-Americas interests. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:29, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Too many brackets in first sentence.

Reads really poorly.

Origins

I'm not an expert on those issues, but I reckon that the order of seating in traditional depictions of the Last Supper, in the British House of Commons and in the French assemblies have the same origin. Traditionally, in the West, the right hand side of the host at a table was the place of honour (from the point of view of the host). Thus, in medieval depictions of the Last Summer, the "Chief Apostle" Peter is always to the right of the host. In the revolutionary National Assembly formed from the Estates-General, the Church and the nobility went to the more honourific side (the right) while the "third estates" (commoners) went to the left. Similarly, in the British House of Commons, the government goes to the right-hand side (place of honour) while the opposition goes to the left.

Can some expert confirm this to me? David.Monniaux 21:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Major deletions without edit summaries

Without, for the moment, debating the merits, these edits by Revolución include major deletions of longstanding material, and were made with no edit summaries beyond the names of the section headers. As I understand it, major removal of longstanding material should usually be accompanied by an explanation of why the material is being removed, and should generally be accompanied by pasting the cut material (or at least a summary) to the talk page.

I have too many irons in the fire to do more than note this right now, but someone may want to look carefully at the cut material. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've restored the material. While far from being the finest parts of the article, they should be improved rather than deleted - or, if there are serious innaccuracies in them, they should be raised here on the talk page. Warofdreams talk 10:42, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This article needs a major rewrite. for one, there is terrible POV problems. The layout was horrible to begin with. And this doesn't even touch upon the various left-wing ideologies (communism, socialism, anarchism, liberalism/progressivism). I will leave the article as is for now but I will be working on a rewrite in one of my subpages. And then we will judge the two versions to see which is 'better'. --Revolución (talk) 00:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Revolución, you're not necessarily wrong, but you seem to be avoiding all approaches that involve collaboration. First you do a bunch of big edits with no summaries, not even explaining your rationale, then you propose that you will write a different article from scratch. Thank you, though, for finally at least giving us a paragraph explaining your rationale. I think it would be much more productive, and much more likely to lead to consensus, to give a rough list of what you think should be dropped from the article and a rough outline of what you would like to add, so that people have some chance to react on that level rather than to an entire substitute article. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:48, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

On the terms conservative and liberal

A copy from Talk talk:Left-wing politics (on article namespace, deleted) Nabla 00:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I have taken an adversarial position with respect to the terms conservative and liberal.

Liberal is short for libertarian. Left is synonymous with liberal. But liberal is associated with anti-libertarian and this causes great confusion. Leave it to the French to throw things out of semblence.

My position is to redefine conservative as anti-libertarian and name it as government management or conservation of government management. Conservative is thereby pitted against libertarianism as contrary philosophical principles.

The current concept of conservative is a moral and subjective position whereby consensus determines policies rather than philosophical principle. The conservative position is to preserve the value of the policies while the policies themselves are both social conservative and economic libertarianism. Conservative projects the value position of social mores as right even righteous. And further generalizes the position of economic libertarianism as right and righteous eventhough it is arguably a social libertarian institution.

The following reiterates the supposition. In gross generality two types of policies exist, social and economic. Further distinctions can be made between economic conservatism or libertarianism and social conservatism or libertarianism.

In social conservatism government management is summoned against libertarian principles of individual freedom. In economic conservatism government management is economic anti-libertarianism seeking to preserve government economic management which are policies of socialism, statism, communism, and fascism as authoritarian government.

In both social and economic libertarianism the government management is expunged from individual freedom and involvement.

Thus philosophical definition of conservatism and libertarianism become consistent along with the terms, libertarian and liberal.

Liberal and libertarian are used interchangeably in criticism typically of Democratic positions. Yet liberal philosophy does not represent the relative position of consensus value as the term conservative. The term conservative is entirely relative as modifications or migration from accepted or present standards. As so, it is a consensus and not philosophy to be applied.

Current definiton of conservative makes the generalization and allegation of liberal in contradiction of their economic libertarian endorsement.

Democrats typically project social libertarianism. They also project economic conservatism by endorsing government economic management which is economic anti-libertarianism. Additional nuances are that Democrats express their social conservatism via economic anti-libertarianism.

Republicans typically project social conservatism. They also project economic libertarianism. Additional nuances are that Republicans express a contradiction of social conservatism via economic libertarianism.

Thus they endorse conservatism as a term evading the issue of an inconsistent application of the libertarian concept. Psychologically they conceive social conservatism as liberating yet refer to themselves as libertarians.

Finally, the terms left-wing and right-wing may only represent economic policy positions. Social positions within the contexts appear to be more complex.

I am interested in reasonable response and concerted efforts to resolve the seeming disparity of inconsistent definition eventhough the terms proposed are not current manner. Please respond to gemija@sbcglobal.net

(by 69.155.134.47 2005-10-13 23:41:43)

Without attempting to respond to the preceding in detail:

• Liberal is not short for libertarian. It is a far older term.
• Left is not synonymous with liberal. The liberals were the original left, but socialism of all stripes was recognized, pretty much from the outset, of being a farther left position.
• I have no idea what to make of your statement "liberal is associated with anti-libertarian": before getting that far, you have made such a bollocks of these terms that I have no idea in what sense you are using them. Your later use of "Democrats" and "Republicans" suggests that you are talking US politics. Yes, these terms have taken on different connotations in the US. So what?
• "My position is to redefine conservative as anti-libertarian..." This is sheer humpty-dumptyism. Conservatism is a political tradition going back at least to Edmund Burke and cannot be defined as the obverse of another school of thought.

These are enough fallacious premises to make it entirely uninteresting to see where the argument might lead. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" are generally useless in any serious political context today. Liberals were a left-wing movement, back when democratic Capitalism itself was a left-wing goal. This is the origin of the term, Conservatives sought to slow down the transition to Capitalism, and supported maintaining the monarchies and general social order. Sometimes they outright opposed the shift to Capitalism, and any parliamentary reform. This is when Liberals were left-wing.

Today, the term "Liberal" does not denote any sort of left-wing politics, in fact it often denotes the opposite, as exemplified by the Liberal party of Canada, or the Liberal economic policies of Clinton.

Time to move on and pick up some better terminology, and a more serious political analysis. The only place where "Liberal" and "Conservative" could be useful is in describing the differences between center-right and far-right parties in certain countries, such as the US, though the Democrats can only be considered "center"-right on certain issues.-- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 21:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that the terms are useless (even today, and certainly in a historical context): it simply means that they are not interchangeable, or even nearly interchangeable, with "left" and "right".

Liberalism in its original sense is now so widely accepted in Europe that the few non-liberals (the stray fascist, and a small portion of the European left, although the European left is liberal in many of its views) stand out like sore thumbs. As do the few governments upon which liberal thought has little influence: Myanmar, North Korea, a few of the CIS countries, the occasional African dictatorship. Even Venezuela is probably more liberal than not, though the U.S. government would be loath to admit it, and Iran is probably more liberal than the average European state in 1750.

Conservatism is a little trickier, because it covers two very different things: a right or center-right ideology (which exists in one measure or another in most democratic countries, and is variously in and out of power) and a precautionary principle against sudden change that can often (viz. Edmund Burke) coincide with liberalism. Or even Communism, as Pete Seeger has been known to point out with reference to himself. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course, I'm just incredibly pissed at the American-centered political terminology, so much so that I have dropped those two words entirely from my political vocabulary pretty much unless discussing them historically or naming a specific party. I still use "conservative" from time to time, in the sense of social conservatism or an aversion to change, but "liberal" particularly I find means nothing unless I use it as a derogatory term amongst a far-left audience (when dissing reformists or something). I'm just pissy, don't mind me. Liberal is of course still useful, just so muddled it should be used carefully, and properly.-- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 07:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Inconsistencies between this article and the "left-wing politics" article

There were some inconsistencies in the format and emphasis of this article in contrast to the article on right-wing politics, which seems strange since these two concepts are roughly symmetrically opposing and meant to be defined against the other. I've tried to incorporate the informal aspects of each article in a rather symmetric introduction. I think this also minimizes potential POV issues.