Talk:Aftermath of the Bronze Night: Difference between revisions
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There is too much original research in this article, and it is done in a POV way. Such as claims that the Russian media "falsely claimed" that statements were attributed to the Estonian govt press service. The referenced article says nothing of the like, in that it mentions nothing about "false claims", it states that statements were attributed to EE govt. "Falsely claimed" is original research. In addition to claims that claims were often accompanied by a photo, with a link [http://surnuaed.ee/sold_fake.gif to the photo]. Linking to the photo is original research also, as it is just a photo on some website, there is nothing to state as such. There are also statements such as protestors attacking Marina Kaljurand; no such thing occurred, her car may have been attacked, but she most certainly was not. Other statements such as "due to Russia's apparent unwillingness and impotency to defend the embassy building and its staff"; "A number of video clips, usually taken via cellphone camera, have appeared on Youtube under the keyword 'eSStonia', ostensibly to corroborate the police brutality claims." (this is OR as the reference is the Youtube links themselves); the list goes on and on. The entire article is written from the Estonian POV, calling protestors vandals and pillagers for example, when the Russian POV is that it is the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers. [[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 09:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
There is too much original research in this article, and it is done in a POV way. Such as claims that the Russian media "falsely claimed" that statements were attributed to the Estonian govt press service. The referenced article says nothing of the like, in that it mentions nothing about "false claims", it states that statements were attributed to EE govt. "Falsely claimed" is original research. In addition to claims that claims were often accompanied by a photo, with a link [http://surnuaed.ee/sold_fake.gif to the photo]. Linking to the photo is original research also, as it is just a photo on some website, there is nothing to state as such. There are also statements such as protestors attacking Marina Kaljurand; no such thing occurred, her car may have been attacked, but she most certainly was not. Other statements such as "due to Russia's apparent unwillingness and impotency to defend the embassy building and its staff"; "A number of video clips, usually taken via cellphone camera, have appeared on Youtube under the keyword 'eSStonia', ostensibly to corroborate the police brutality claims." (this is OR as the reference is the Youtube links themselves); the list goes on and on. The entire article is written from the Estonian POV, calling protestors vandals and pillagers for example, when the Russian POV is that it is the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers. [[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|Dialogue]]</sup> 09:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:: The reference is an example of such claims. That it is false is obvious from other sources. In particular, the fact that other sources '''don't''' report such a claim by the government press service is a dead-on tip-off that it's a fluke. |
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:: You don't need a full-blown article at Snopes to see that. [[Special:Contributions/62.65.238.142|62.65.238.142]] ([[User talk:62.65.238.142|talk]]) 12:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:Marina Kaljurand was most certainly attacked at a news conference by Nashi activists but was defended by her bodyguards using pepper spray, you are confusing it with the attack on the car of Swedish embassy [http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1299130.php/Sweden_protests_attack_on_ambassadors_vechicle_in_Russia__Extra_]. Regarding your assertion that it is Estonian POV calling protestors vandals and pillagers and Russian POV that the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers, is nonsense. [[User:Martintg|Martintg]] ([[User talk:Martintg|talk]]) 10:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
:Marina Kaljurand was most certainly attacked at a news conference by Nashi activists but was defended by her bodyguards using pepper spray, you are confusing it with the attack on the car of Swedish embassy [http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1299130.php/Sweden_protests_attack_on_ambassadors_vechicle_in_Russia__Extra_]. Regarding your assertion that it is Estonian POV calling protestors vandals and pillagers and Russian POV that the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers, is nonsense. [[User:Martintg|Martintg]] ([[User talk:Martintg|talk]]) 10:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:36, 11 January 2009
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Fair use rationale for Image:SovNarPit200705.jpg
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Nuvola_apps_important.svg/70px-Nuvola_apps_important.svg.png)
Image:SovNarPit200705.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Rationale provided. Martintg (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
"Mistranslation" Claim
Anonymous editor claims that incorrect translation happened here. I would ask somebody who has command of Estonian to clarify nature of mistake. RJ CG (talk) 15:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
With "mistranslation" I referred to your previous edit summary - "Legalese to English". This "translation" of yours was far from perfect. 213.184.32.202 (talk) 16:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- All countries impose certain conditions on granting visas, for example you are not allowed to work, carry out prostitution or engage in public picketing. Just recently Australia deported an American because he violated his visa conditions by picketing against forestry activity in Australia. There is no laws against picketing in Estonia, but if you are a foreigner, then you must obey the law, including visa law. Will restore the original text. Martintg (talk) 19:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I do not see how my version was challenging Estonian right to deport peaceful people who came to Estonia on the tourist visa and engaged in non-violent pickets (by the way, I would like to see some article on the deported American, I bet he was engaged in something more violent than standing in a public park dressed in something resembling Red Army cape). I just wanted to make the paragraph a little bit more readable by splitting long sentence in two - (1) explanation that ones banned from Estonia for violation are banned from other Schengen contries and (2) explanation of the nature of violation. Although I suspect that it was very attempt to explain nature of violation that raised your noble ire. RJ CG (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Things are relative. Showup of wrong people at the monument site eventually resulted in downtown Tallinn - a small, peaceful city! - ravaged and pillaged, with over 1000 detainees (number obviously so great there was no matching jailhouse so they had to be held in port terminal). The monument is a site of religious zeal of the cult of GPW (Great Patriotic War) as well as the anti-site for the Baltic nationalists. Picketing is innocent? It is like walking in the street with a dog - innocent activity in most places of the world. But don't walk with your dog into a mosque!
- I do not see how my version was challenging Estonian right to deport peaceful people who came to Estonia on the tourist visa and engaged in non-violent pickets (by the way, I would like to see some article on the deported American, I bet he was engaged in something more violent than standing in a public park dressed in something resembling Red Army cape). I just wanted to make the paragraph a little bit more readable by splitting long sentence in two - (1) explanation that ones banned from Estonia for violation are banned from other Schengen contries and (2) explanation of the nature of violation. Although I suspect that it was very attempt to explain nature of violation that raised your noble ire. RJ CG (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
--Bete (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Original research and POV
There is too much original research in this article, and it is done in a POV way. Such as claims that the Russian media "falsely claimed" that statements were attributed to the Estonian govt press service. The referenced article says nothing of the like, in that it mentions nothing about "false claims", it states that statements were attributed to EE govt. "Falsely claimed" is original research. In addition to claims that claims were often accompanied by a photo, with a link to the photo. Linking to the photo is original research also, as it is just a photo on some website, there is nothing to state as such. There are also statements such as protestors attacking Marina Kaljurand; no such thing occurred, her car may have been attacked, but she most certainly was not. Other statements such as "due to Russia's apparent unwillingness and impotency to defend the embassy building and its staff"; "A number of video clips, usually taken via cellphone camera, have appeared on Youtube under the keyword 'eSStonia', ostensibly to corroborate the police brutality claims." (this is OR as the reference is the Youtube links themselves); the list goes on and on. The entire article is written from the Estonian POV, calling protestors vandals and pillagers for example, when the Russian POV is that it is the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers. Russavia Dialogue 09:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- The reference is an example of such claims. That it is false is obvious from other sources. In particular, the fact that other sources don't report such a claim by the government press service is a dead-on tip-off that it's a fluke.
- You don't need a full-blown article at Snopes to see that. 62.65.238.142 (talk) 12:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Marina Kaljurand was most certainly attacked at a news conference by Nashi activists but was defended by her bodyguards using pepper spray, you are confusing it with the attack on the car of Swedish embassy [1]. Regarding your assertion that it is Estonian POV calling protestors vandals and pillagers and Russian POV that the Estonian govt who are the vandals and pillagers, is nonsense. Martintg (talk) 10:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Is it nonsense? Or is it POV? It's POV of course, but it is a POV which should also be present; perhaps not in those terms, and perhaps not at all. But there is overt Estonian POV in this article, and that can't be denied. Again, the statement "sometimes falsely", or whatever, is your statement, it is not referenced anywhere that says these were false claims. That is why I removed it, or I can put a [citation needed] on it, in order to have it referenced properly. As to the attack, protestors did not attack her. From [2]:
On May 2, a group of young people, as a sign of protest against the dismantling of the Monument to the Liberator Soldier in Tallinn, did indeed made an attempt to disrupt the Estonian ambassador’s press conference at the office of the newspaper Argumenty i Fakty. But security guards prevented them from doing so. No direct physical attack on the ambassador was recorded. As to reports of tear gas, it was the ambassador’s bodyguard who used pepper spray against the picketers. Marina Kaljurand herself confirmed this fact during a conversation at the Foreign Ministry.
Attack and attempt to disrupt are completely different things, and it is a stretch to say that they are the same thing. The same from the source of MNWeekly:
and tried to attack Ambassador Marina Kaljurand before a news conference.
Attacked and tried to attack are completely different, yet the article makes out she was actually attacked before being heroically rescued by her pepper spray wielding bodyguards.
It is omissions of fact, or misquoting sources (either deliberately or inadvertantly), such as this which gives the article an overall pro-Estonian POV. --Russavia Dialogue 11:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Looter v. pillager trials
Not all the trials were about looting, many were about vandalism and disorderly conduct. 62.65.238.142 (talk) 12:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)