Talk:Cybele

Section

Eequor: I appreciate your efforts to make Wikipedia more sensitive to the transgendered community, and I certainly appreciate your corrections where they have forced myself and others to step back and re-evaluate what we write. In a few cases, however, I think you go past the point of sensitivity and start to impose your own agenda on ancient sources. Labelling Attis "she" is a case in point. Ancient writers are quite clear about his primarily male identity. For example "A woodland Phrygian boy, the gorgeous Attis, conquered the towered goddess with pure love. She wanted to keep him as her shrine’s guardian, and said, ‘Desire to be a boy always.’" (Ovid Fasti 4.222). Also: "When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinos, that he might wed the king's daughter." (Pausanias 7.19.9-12). See http://www.theoi.com/Okeanos/Attis.html for further references. Bacchiad 03:07, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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I have added a good deal of new material drawn from Burkert, Greek Religion. I have cut very little, but I've set some material, like a Greek etymology for Cybele, in new context. I have left "nature" among the realms over which Cybele held sway: "nature" is not a useful concept as a generic absolute in this way. Quotes from literature that specify her attributes would be a good addition. --Wetman 06:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

6th century

the link to 6th and 4th century is obviously wrong.

Aideeee!

As a Greek, a eunuch and a denier of Christianity, what i have to say about this article is this: hogwash.

So Kyveli is the goddess of transgendered persons now, eh, if the externa links are to be taken seriously? But what about the animals? Why not nominate her Goddess of Furries too? I see no point in wasting such a great opportunity at raping the past to ascert our connection to it.

Well done to all contributors here, well done. I applaud you. You are truly, honestly, ridiculus beyond compare to clowns and pink elephants. Bravo!

Anatolian Goddess -> Turkish

Hello, Kibele or Cybele was an Anatolian goddess, as currently most of the descendants of the ancient anatolians live in Turkey and speak turkish, the turkish version of the name should be represented as well..I have made these editions..Regards,Alasian

The name comes into English from the Greek, not the Turkish, and there are no Turkish myths about her. For that matter, if the Turkish name you say is common relates to Cybele and is not of native Turkish etymology, it certainly entered that language through Greek as well and not, say, Phrygian. Including Turkish here therefore isn't terribly informative and is no more relevant than including, say, the Italian. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Links

Sorry, I'm removing the two links to the "modern gallae" webpages, because they are completely irrelevant and full of misleaqding inaccuracies. They would be more relevant to an article about the "revival of the cult of Cybele", if anyone wanted to write such an article. Stassa (talk) 21:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph

Something strikes me as strange the way that the end of the first paragraph is worded. It references another Wikipedia entry, and makes a point of indicating that it is a direct quote. A direct quote from another entry? I feel this paragraph could stand to be reworded, but I'm not sure exactly how to do it. Anybody want to take a stab? --Dallasallad (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the odd reference, but maintained the actual sentence. If you think it's spurious, add a cn tag. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Turkish Name of Kybele

The Turkish name of Kybele is Sibel and is a very widely used name in Turkey even after thousands of years.

As most of the direct descendants of ancient anatolians today speak Turkish, the turkish version of the name of the goddess should also be provided.--Lycianhittite (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It is very important to provide the Turkish name of this goddess because:

-The goddess was originally Hittite and later Phrygian, for this reason the Hittite and Phyrigian versions of the name, that lead to the Greek version of the name should be provided in the article.

-Todays Anatolians are the indigenous population of the region according to scientific studies, and at this moment, have a widely used turkish language name for Kybele, which is Sibel. This should also be provided as a)It shows what today's anatolians call their ancient goddess b)It showst the cultural continuity in Anatolia

The Greek version of Kubaba is of no more importance than the Turkish one, as they were both different versions of the original ancient anatolian one, given as the Anatolians first shifted to speaking Greek from Anatolian languages, and later on shifted to Turkish. Lycianhittite (talk) 01:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

...and the French name for Cybele is Cybèle.--Wetman (talk) 06:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

... and the French have nothing to do with Anatolia and the french are not Anatolians, they are just foreigners using the name of an Anatolian goddess. How many of them are proven to be indigenous anatolians. %85-90 of Anatolians of today are indigenous, using the name of THEIR goddess after thousands of years.The current language of indigenous anatolians is turkish and they call their goddess with a name more suitable for their current language. This name should be added to show how the culture of Anatolians is continuing even after thousands of years where Sibel(Kibele) being one of the most prominent female names. A google image search with Sibel will reveal more than 350,000 results.

Also, as important as providing what the Anatolians today call their goddess(Turkish:Sibel) is equally important to provide information about what ancient anatolians were calling Cybele(Centuries before ancient greeks stepped over anatolian soil !). Thus the Hittite version and the later Phrygian version should be provided as well as the later Greek and Turkish versions. The language of Anatolians may have changed over time, first from Ancient Hittite to Phrygian or other Anatolian languages. Then into Greek with the Hellenization of Anatolia, then into Turkish with the islamization of Anatolia. Despite all these the culture is continuing as proven by the wide usage of the goddesses name even in Anatolia of today. Lycianhittite (talk) 11:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Turkey or the Turkish did not exist back then. All you have in common is geographical locale, and trying to establish a connection for the name has no basis. What ever Cybele is called in Turkish is just as irrlevant as adding the Chinese or Russian name of Cybele. Ancient Greek and Roman deities remain ancient deities. _{El Greco}^(talk) 15:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

All you are doing is typing irrelevant chauvanistic rants that do not contain single piece of information about why the anatolian names of Sibel who is an anatolian goddess should not be provided. If you do not have solid arguments against todays Anatolians not having the right to call an anatolian goddess her name in the current anatolian language, then stop vandalasing this article.How many of the chinese and russians are indigenous anatolians?Stop using this irrelevant argument again and again where you each time cant answer my simple question in return!

A) According to scientific studies more than %85 of Turkey's population is formed of indigenous anatolians

1)..In the present study, the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia was estimated as 13%..

• http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117873906/abstract

2).. One study based on an analysis of Y-chromosomes from Turkey suggested that Central Asians have only made a 10% genetic contribution..

• Rolf B, Röhl A, Forster P, Brinkmann B. "Genomic diversity: applications in human population genetics". 75–82 Kluwer Academic/Plenum

3)..Recent genetic research has suggested the local, Anatolian origins of the Turks and that genetic flow between Turks and Asiatic peoples might have been marginal..

• http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rosser2000.pdf
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people

B) The greek Cybele is just a derivation of the Ancient Anatolian Hittite name Kubaba for the Anatolian goddess.When Hittites were calling Sibel with the name Kubaba The Greek Language did not even exist! let alone have a version for Sibel.

Also, If you take some time to read, even in the article, Sibel is under Anatolian deities part. Greek version of the name of Sibel is just an intermediary version, which the anatolians were using as their language shifted from Ancient Anatolian languages(Hittite,Phrygian,etc.) to Ancient Greek. So the Ancient Greek name of Kubaba is of secondary importance as it was just an intermediary name between what ancient anatolians were calling THEIR goddess in their initial ancient Anatolian languages(Hittite:Kubaba) and what they are calling in their current language(Turkish:Sibel)

C) Modern day anatolians are speaking Turkish but still valuing their goddesses name by using it as the name for hundreds of thousands of women around anatolia. This name is Sibel and should be provided in the article to show how this goddess is currently named by the descendants of the people who originated her myth.

Conclusion - An informative and unbiased article should contain: A)Primary Importance 1)Original name of the goddess, as the ancient anatolians were calling. So the name in Hittite and Phrygian languages. 2)Current name of the goddess, as used by the anatolians in their current language.

B)Secondary Importance 1)Intermediary versions of Kubaba, between the initial Kubaba and the current Sibel. An example to these intermediary languages is ancient greek version Cybele. Cybele is of far less importance than say Sibel as Sibel is what the anatolians are currently calling their goddess, while Cybele is what they were calling during the period between ancient anatolian languages and their current language Turkish. Also, Cybele is of far less importance than Kubaba(Hittite) because, back then, the Greek Language did not even exist!! as the Hittite language is around 1000 years older than Greek.

You have failed to provide any evidence for today's Anatolians not having anything in common with their ancestors. I will be changing back the language section if you do not come up with solid arguments against the above facts.

Lycianhittite (talk) 02:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the dictionary of Georgios Babiniotis (Γεώργιος Μπαμπινιώτης), professor of glossology at the University of Athens,Cybele is "the godess of fertility, the mother of gods and humans, whose worship was widely spread throughout Asia Minor and then spread to Greece and Italy. It derives from the ancient Greek name Κυβήβη, which is probably a loan from the Orient, possibly the Hittite Kubaba. So why not include all of the godess' previous names? That would be a logic thing to do. Don't omit the Greek name but add her other names too. Pel thal (talk) 09:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the input. I will include the godesses other names as well.

Lycianhittite (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)