Talk:Suicide by cop

The discussion of "Victim-Precipitated Suicide" also seems to echo the Circumcellions, a fourth century Christian group ( involved with the Donatists ) who attacked people they considered the enemies of the church in the hope of being martyred - including alleged assaults on fully armed Roman Legionaires, which is the historical analogue of the situation discussed here. This is allegedly discussed in WHC Frends, "The Rise of Christianity", cited on the African Christianity Homepage. If anyone has this book and can confirm the passages, I think they'd be a great addition to this article. --219.164.33.42 06:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Is the term used in an ironic sense often (if at all). Although it is plausible that suicide by cop is used this way "in some circles", I couldn't find any references to this practice. But that may just mean I wasn't thorough enough. MSchmahl 01:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

counts as suicide?

Does anyone know if government statistics count suicide by cop as a suicide death? Gflores ^Talk 22:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Original Research

Unless there is a link or reference to a published copy of that essay, it's got to go. -Snpoj

What about a link to a summary of the essay by the writer? the preceding unsigned comment was written by 67.162.31.206.

I tend to agree with Snpoj. Unless Michelle Chan's notability, as an expert in the field of psychology or religious history, is established, her opinion doesn't really belong here. -- MSchmahl 12:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't see any problem with a link of the summary if the link is listed under "External Links". Even a short description of what the link is about would be ok imho. -Snpoj

Removal of "Michelle Chan" essay material

[Removed: Author Jay Black of Guttersnipe, Zarboki, and MSchmahl disagree over the inclusion of (a) Michelle Chan's Jesus S.B.C. theory and (b) long description of Guttersnipe novella in External links. They eventually agree on a simple citation-style link. Talk removed by User:Jay Black, possibly as part of a MindWipe.]

On a more constructive note, I also think we have to agree that S.B.C. is a fairly common principle in literature as well as filmmaking. I myself came to the page after watching an old episode of NCIS that features this concept and wording. The examples should be limited to fairly well-known works. If you want a page that is a list of all examples of S.B.C. then make a separate article and link it from here. Surely the aim of the page should be to inform about the topic not list every example in pop-culture. Zarboki 08:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with Zarboki. I see no indication, either in this article or elsewhere, that Michelle Chan is a reputable biblical scholar. I was on the verge of removing the disputed content myself. — MSchmahl 09:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it like it is now, just like how that Chan stuff was redone. imo, if you've got something interesting that you did personally but that isn't "notable" just put it as a link at the bottom with a short description. -Snpoj 04:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

John Wilkes Booth?

Anyone know why he was included in the "see also" list? There's nothing in his article indicating the reason for the link, assuming you make a distinction between intending to commit suicide (for whatever reason) vs. an unwillingness to be "taken alive," for which there would be plenty of rational reasons, such as surety of being tortured or killed later anyway.

I hadn't noticed it until now. Yes, that should go, it's not a relevant example. This phenomenon requires that the person deliberately provoke lethal action of law enforcement, with the intent of being killed in that way.Legitimus (talk) 02:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Original reference of 'Victim-Precipitated Homicide'

It seems to me that the term 'Victim-Precipitated Homicide' was coined by Wolfgang M.E. Altough, i cannot confirm this and don't know if this was a master thesis or if he was a "veteran Canadian police officer."

Wolfgang M.E. (1959). "Suicide by means of victim-precipitated homicide". Journal of Clinical and Experimental Psychopathology and Quarterly Review of Psychiatry and Neurology. 20 (Oct–Dec): 335–349.

Jpau

Rename

To be quite frank, "cop" does sound quite tacky and is an americanism not used widely elsewhere. I would suggest that the name be changed to "police assisted suicide" or "Suicide by provoking lethal response", or something else a little more encyclopedic. This is not intended as a dig at whoever created this article, just a suggestion to make it sound a little more professional if you will. Benjaminstewart05 20:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and believe the article should be changed to "Police assisted suicide" King-of-no-pants 19:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to disagree -- I hear this frequently reported in the (American) media as "suicide-by-cop". In fact, it seems to come most often from law enforcement officers and others in that community. I have no cites right now, but as someone who watches crime trends in the U.S., I am content with the term. As a Wikipedia user, "suicide by cop" is the search string i used to find the article/subject, and I was pleased to find it on the first hit. I understand that without cites I'm merely stating opinion, but I believe the term to be entrenched enough that WP:CITE and WP:V could be satisfied if needed. I guess I would recommend that reports from reliable news sources (which source crime and psych experts) be relied upon to verify that "suicide by cop" is the predominant term for this subject. Merci -- ManfrenjenStJohn 21:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, I realize that my position may be unique to American use of the phenomenon. But I think the term "police-assisted suicide" is simply not recognized here, and that if referred to as such, no layman would understand it to be phenomenon we are discussing. To anyone outside the U.S., all I can say is that "suicide by cop" is what it's called here, as surely as the fact that we call french-fries what our British brothers call chips. I agree the article should meet the global standards of Wikipedia, but not without noting that "suicide by cop" is the preferred terminology in the US, and I am certain that I have read that the term originated in the law enforcement community here. Sorry to be your typical myopic American :) -- Amend it to make it global, but keep the American viewpoint -- That's my suggestion. Thanks. -- ManfrenjenStJohn 21:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. "Cop" is a slang term - whether in the UK or the USA. It's not an Atlantic divide, this one: the slang word "copper" exists in British English too, as a substitute for "policeman" (or, to be gender-neutral, "police officer"). Nevertheless, "cop" remains slang, informal English on both sides of the Atlantic. An encyclopædia article should not be titled with slang, when more formal terms could be used. I support a move to "Police-assisted suicide". EuroSong ^talk 09:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything more to add to this? If there are no objections, I intend to move it. EuroSong ^talk 21:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really in favor of changing it, just because I have yet to find any mention of this phenomenon in a news source that calls it something other than 'suicide by cop'. It certainly is only called this in the U.S. other than in scholarly articles (where it is at least mentioned as such). I understand that some complain this might be a U.S. perspective, but I think it is presumptive to assume this is a 'worldwide' phenomenon, either. If this behavior is most common in the U.S. and U.K. why shouldn't the page use the parlance most used to describe it in these areas? I never hear police assisted suicide, just 'suicide by cop' or, occasionally, 'suicide by police.' Epthorn 11:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Always suicide?

It would be nice to see some examination of the issue of whether the mentally ill person is always intending to commit suicide or if he or she is simply trying to provoke a reaction, perhaps undefined, necessitated by his or her mental state (e.g. the need for attention). Certainly this must have been discussed in the journals and articles cited. I imagine every case in which an officer claims "suicide by cop" might not necessarily be so; some people act irrationally just because. Adding this issue of uncertainty into the article would seem poignant. 66.57.225.77 14:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect Info on "The Recruit"

However, whether or not Pacino knows his gun is empty is left somewhat ambiguous.

I'm removing this line. It's not ambiguous. He clearly is seen releasing the slide lock on his pistol in a conceiled manner before pointing it at the law enforcement officers. The slide only locks back like that when the last round is fired. He was trying to give the illusion of a loaded gun. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kensuke Aida (talk • contribs) 00:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

The article completely miss the fact that phenomenon it describes is really a murder, not suicide. The person who actually kill the man is a cop.

The whole thing was invented in order to indemnify a killer cops from criminal liability. Lqp 15:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No it wasn't, cop-hater. Suicide is to deliberately bring about one's own death, and does not require any action on the person's part. Laying down on a train track, stepping in front of a bus, etc. If someone is exploiting another person's actions with the full intention of getting themselves killed, it is suicide.Legitimus (talk)

in fiction: minority report

"In the 2002 film Minority Report, Leo Crow who is earlier falsely suspected in abducting John Anderton's (played by Tom Cruise) son, commits suicide using Anderton after Leo's conspiracy and will to die in order to get money for his family is discovered by Anderton."

Anderton doesn't actually shoot him, Leo kills himself. Anderton decides not to, did Leo pull the trigger or just jump out the window? Can't remember which. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.162.99 (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

He either sticks his fingers into the trigger guard, or squeezes Anderton's hand, either way he physically manipulates the gun to make it fire. This is not suicide by cop, because Anderton no longer intended to shoot him. He more or less shot himself completely on his own, Anderton just happened to still have his hand on the gun at the time.

"State-assisted suicide"

What about state-assisted suicide, in which the death is not immediate, but comes as the result of judgment handed down by the court? E.g., Timothy McVeigh.[1] Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is a similar concept, and can be linked to, though it works differently. It's arguable that the person in state-assisted suicide did not intend suicide all along, but rather they prefer death to life imprisonment only once they are caught. It could also be argued that their actions a trial are a "reverse-psychology" approach to evading execution, in that they are trying to create a impression that they are mentally unfit (most states will not execute legally insane people) or as a way to deny the retributive satisfaction of the court and public, in that the court is given them what they want rather than a punishment.Legitimus (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Leeland Eisenberg

Under examples is this blurb:

Leeland Eisenberg, who took hostages in one of Hillary Clinton's campaign offices in December 2007, claimed afterwards it was an attempted suicide by cop.

The link for Leeland Eisenberg redirects to an article on Hillary Clinton's 2008 campaign, but there's aboslutely no mention of Eisenberg or the incident that took place. Maybe a new article for Eisenberg should be intitiated? I really want to know what happened, because I apparently missed it during the campaign! 96.238.115.21 (talk) 02:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)