Talk:Martin Fleischmann: Difference between revisions
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However, I'm certainly not going to get exercised by a transient "disputed reprint" designation. Someone else might, though. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 01:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
However, I'm certainly not going to get exercised by a transient "disputed reprint" designation. Someone else might, though. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 01:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
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And I have no problem at all with "unverified reprint" for the time being. I said I wasn't going to go to the trouble of verification if the link was just going to be removed anyway, and if I don't like the tag, well, I can make sure it is verified. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 01:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
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== Notability == |
== Notability == |
Revision as of 01:13, 19 March 2009
Biography: Science and Academia Stub‑class | |||||||||||||
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POV
The article was tagged with no follow up on the talk page. Frive by tagging is not permitted. As the article looks good and there has been no discussion by anyone, I have removed the tags. --Statsone 05:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, reading through I still think it is highly POV. I removed slang with obviously negative connotations unsourced "burning through... research grant". 128.147.157.133 (talk)
Postgraduate Lectures at Southampton University
During the late 1970s, when I was a postgraduate student in the department of Chemical Physics at Southampton University, I was privileged to attend a number of lectures on thermodynamics by Martin Fleischmann. I recall his precision and attention to detail. Somehow, the idea of cold fusion with its present connotations of pseudoscience do not fit in any way with his thermodynamics lectures. Hair Commodore (talk) 16:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Moved overlong section from article
I have moved this section, which was copy-pasted from a previous version of cold fusion, from the article. It is much too long, and it unbalances the article.
Fleischmann-Pons experiment
Fleischmann said that he began investigating the possibility that chemical means could influence nuclear processes in the 1960s.[1] He said that he explored whether collective effects, that would require quantum electrodynamics to calculate, might be more significant than the effects predicted by quantum mechanical calculations.[2][3][4] He said that, by 1983, he had experimental evidence leading him to believe that condensed phase systems developed coherent structures up to 10-7m in size.[3] In 1984, Fleischmann and Pons began cold fusion experiments.[5] In 1989, they reported that one of their experiments resulted in the melting and partial vaporization of the palladium cube used for their cathode, the partial destruction of their lab bench, a small hole in the concrete floor and damage to the fume hood.[6]
In their original set-up, Fleischmann and Pons used a Dewar flask (a double-walled vacuum flask) for the electrolysis, so that heat conduction would be minimal on the side and the bottom of the cell (only 5 % of the heat loss in this experiment). The cell flask was then submerged in a bath maintained at constant temperature to eliminate the effect of external heat sources. They used an open cell, thus allowing the gaseous deuterium and oxygen resulting from the electrolysis reaction to leave the cell, along with some heat. It was necessary to replenish the cell with heavy water at regular intervals. The authors said that, since the cell was tall and narrow, the bubbling action of the gas kept the electrolyte well mixed and of a uniform temperature. Special attention was paid to the purity of the palladium cathode and electrolyte to prevent the build-up of material on its surface, especially after long periods of operation.[citation needed]
The cell was also instrumented with a thermistor to measure the temperature of the electrolyte, and an electrical heater to generate pulses of heat and calibrate the heat loss due to the gas outlet. After calibration, it was possible to compute the heat generated by the reaction.[7]
A constant current was applied to the cell continuously for many weeks, and heavy water was added as necessary. For most of the time, the power input to the cell was equal to the power that went out of the cell within measuring accuracy, and the cell temperature was stable at around 30 °C. But then, at some point (and in some of the experiments), the temperature rose suddenly to about 50 °C without changes in the input power, for durations of 2 days or more. The generated power was calculated to be about 20 times the input power during the power bursts. Eventually the power bursts in any one cell would no longer occur and the cell was turned off.[citation needed]
In 1988, Fleischmann and Pons applied to the United States Department of Energy for funding towards a larger series of experiments. Up to this point they had been funding their experiments using a small device built with $100,000 out-of-pocket.[8] The grant proposal was turned over for peer review, and one of the reviewers was Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University.[8] Jones had worked on muon-catalyzed fusion for some time, and had written an article on the topic entitled "Cold nuclear fusion" that had been published in Scientific American in July 1987. Fleischmann and Pons and co-workers met with Jones and co-workers on occasion in Utah to share research and techniques. During this time, Fleischmann and Pons described their experiments as generating considerable "excess energy", in the sense that it could not be explained by chemical reactions alone.[9] They felt that such a discovery could bear significant commercial value and would be entitled to patent protection. Jones, however, was measuring neutron flux, which was not of commercial interest.[8] In order to avoid problems in the future, the teams appeared to agree to simultaneously publish their results, although their accounts of their March 6 meeting differ.[10]
In mid-March, both research teams were ready to publish their findings, and Fleischmann and Jones had agreed to meet at an airport on March 24 to send their papers to Nature via FedEx.[10] Fleischmann and Pons, however, broke their apparent agreement, submitting their paper to the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry on March 11, and disclosing their work via a press conference on March 23.[8]
- ^ Fleischmann 2003, p. 1
- ^ Fleischmann 2002
- ^ a b Fleischmann 2003, p. 3
- ^ Leggett 1989
- ^ Lewenstein 1994 p. 21
- ^ Fleischmann & Pons 1989, p. 301 , Krivit 2008, p. 9 , Browne 1989
- ^ Fleischmann & Pons 1989, p. 301
- ^ a b c d Crease & Samios 1989, p. V1
- ^ Fleischmann et al. 1990, p. 293
- ^ a b Lewenstein 1994, p. 8
restoring description of experiment to article
A brief description of the experiment should be in this article, with details at the main article. I cut it down some. Some references are broken, and it's tricky to fix because simply restoring old code won't work because User:JzG deleted the links to a site with the source, and apparently added, same day, that site, to the Wikipedia spam blacklist. Here is a permanent link to where JzG "proposes" adding the link, see section 1.9. [1]. However, JzG is himself an administrator and so he added it himself, immediately. This is the proposal:
- == lenr-canr.org ==
- Long-term spamming and use to push fringe views in Cold fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), see also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion. Links actively being promoted by the site owner (e.g. [2]) in continued furtherance of a real-world dispute which has spilled over onto Wikipedia. Inappropriate as a source due to polemic and fringe advocacy, includes material hosted in violation of original publisher's copyright. Adding now, and listing here for transparency. Also newenergytimes.com seems to be apart of the same problem. Guy (Help!) 21:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The references can be fixed by making them refer to the original articles, which is cleaner anyway. There is no requirement that an article be available on-line to be cited. Later, if we can remove lenr-canr from the blacklist, and possibly overcome some other obstacles, a "copy at" notice may be inserted. For now, I will note that the activities of the site owner aren't relevant to whether or not a site hosting a copy of a paper may be used as a source. The link removed, in particular, which broke a citation, was to a copy of a paper by Fleischman, and there was no "polemic" in what was cited. It is not our business to punish web sites for "polemic and fringe advocacy." This was not a general External Link, where we need be careful of what we are effectively recommending. I'll not comment on the copyright issue at the moment, beyond saying that I suspect we should not be in the business of deciding whether or not some other organization is violating copyright. Maybe they have permission, for example, maybe the material has been released in some way, etc. And even if not, it isn't our business. We need protect Wikipedia from copyright violation, not the world. --Abd (talk) 18:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- The site is not a reliable source (we have, for example, had links to it inserted purporting to be the 2004 DoE cold fusion review, but actually being a heavily editorialised version). It was spammed by Jed Rothwell, the site owner, who is a perennial IP hopper so not easy to rein in in any other way. It was posted for review at the time in the relevant place, and there was no notice saying "beware of the leopard". Google Scholar gives 14,600 hits for Martin Fleischmann, you're goign to have a hard time persuading me that the best and only source for some genuinely significant content in this WP:BLP article is a site devoted to the advocacy of a fringe POV, whose major proponent on Wikipedia has been its webmaster, which has been abused to misrepresent references on Wikipedia, and which I am now being requested by an admin on another language project to take to the meta blacklist. Even if it were not blacklisted, it would be inappropriate, but the inappropriate nature of the site is not the main reaosn for blacklisting, the main reason is spamming by the webmaster - which is completely uncontroversial grounds for blacklisting. Delinking a blacklisted site is perfectly normal. In the old days we would sometimes refuse to blacklist until the site had been delinked. These days the software has been tweaked to mitigate the collateral damage, but delinking is still standard practice for spammed sites. The most that could be justified, given the past abuse of Wikipedia to promote this site by Rothwell and his friends, is whitelisting a single link, if it is genuinely reliable, unavailable elsewhere, significant in context and of encyclopaedic merit. If I'd thought the link was likely to be any of those things I'd not have removed it. Martin Fleischmann is a highly-cited professional chemist with a publication list as long as your arm. I wonder if he would ocnsider that one of the most significant aspects of his current work? I know someone who can ask him personally, so maybe I will get in touch. Guy (Help!) 23:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict, this reply was written prior to an addition by JzG above.) Thanks for replying, JzG. The web site isn't the source for what was cited in the article, the original article is. But the web site has a convenient copy. The site in question purports to be simply a library of articles on the topic, and which, by its nature, focuses on articles about cold fusion, such as the paper presented by Fleischman which is his personal account of the history -- and which should be cited as such. The diff you provided as evidence of spamming wasn't. The librarian of the site isn't stepping outside our guidelines at all by mentioning it in a Talk page post, and, in fact, that is exactly what someone in his position is supposed to do. I see this as a content dispute, Guy. And using your admin tools in a content dispute is, as you know, highly discouraged. I'm suggesting that you undo this and proceed, should you continue to believe that the reference was inappropriate, as if you were, in matters related to this, an ordinary editor. I am not attempting to resolve the issue of the legitimacy of the site itself and references to it; this should be done through normal editorial process.
- That a site might host an inappropriate article doesn't establish that copies of other publications hosted there should not be linked. Sure, whitelisting a specific link might be done, but it's a lot more trouble and there should be good reason for blacklisting in the first place, supported by consensus, or made in the expectation of consensus and in the absence of objection (from other than the alleged spammer!).
- Thus whether the webmaster spammed or not is not the first issue. I have seen no evidence that he did, you have not presented such, at least not where you've pointed to, but perhaps he did. That is not relevant to the rights of other editors of these articles to use resources as they may deem appropriate, without being prevented by your administrative action, taken, apparently, without consultation. I am unaware of the significance of leopards, nor of what the "relevant place" might be, beyond your "proposed" listing, done immediately or even after the listing itself, which attracted no comment, and which did not establish, except by your assertion of your own opinion, the fact of spamming. The arbitration you cited may have had, somewhere, *something* other than your own opinion, but that's the problem with citing a large document without any specific reference within it!
- Again, all this is moot, because your action listing the site was improper on its face. Unless you believe that this blacklisting is so important that it warrants WP:IAR, in which case I assume you would be ready to defend it as such, please undo your listing and don't use your tools in this dispute.
- As to WP:UNDUE, the events around the experiment were highly notable. The removed link was to a copy of Fleischmann's account of the history. I am not claiming that the link is necessary. What I'm claiming now is that editors should not be hampered by an administrator making a private decision about spamming and content, unless there is very clear need for the blacklisting. --Abd (talk) 23:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
removal of link to Fleischmann account of history
JzG removed the link to Fleischmann's history of the cold fusion affair with this edit. The link was taken out by him in December 18, 2008, and then the site which hosts it was blacklisted by him. This was discussed above. User:Enric Naval went to the whitelist and, with considerable effort and delay, got the specific link on lenr-canr.org whitelisted (permanent link) , then restored it here. The article is autobiographical, Fleischmann recounting his history of the cold fusion affair. It's inherently notable, because he is notable. If anything in that history is controversial, the text should be attributed, but notability isn't an issue. JzG, your repetitive restoration against apparent consensus is edit warring. Please don't edit war, but discuss here. --Abd (talk) 15:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- This is part of a list of works. It's customary on articles about scientists and writers to have a complete list of publications, papers, etc. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- No, not a full list - and it's not a "publication" as conference papers are not peer-reviewed. Do you have an independent source for the significance of that piece of work within Fleischmann's overall career? Otherwise we're just getting into laundry list territory. Guy (Help!) 18:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Fleischmann has only published a few papers on cold fusion, and he is notable almost exclusively for his work on that field, and articles on scientists use to have a list of papers published by them (and yeah, that includes conference proceedings). It's not as if Fleischmann has hundreds of papers and we have to decide which are relevant and which are not.I hate to use a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but we actually make laundry lists on articles of scientists and writers, see List_of_scientific_publications_by_Albert_Einstein or Freeman_Dyson#By_Dyson (includes stuff like notes from a lecture) and Terry_Pratchett#Bibliography (see the last section "Collaborations and contributions") --Enric Naval (talk) 20:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would agree that this is a core problem. In fact, I wonder if this article should simply be a redirect. At the moment it seems ot me to hover between WP:BLP1E and WP:COATRACK]. Guy (Help!) 23:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Hum, that's an interesting point. This and Pons could be redirected to Cold_fusion#Fleischmann-Pons_announcement (Fleischmann-Pons_experiment is already a redirect to Cold fusion) --Enric Naval (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- So it seems to me, anyway. Per WP:PROF this does look borderline; not a problem if the subject is not contentious, but int his case Fleischmann (and Pons) are both controversial, and in both cases this controversy has a single source I think. Guy (Help!) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Hum, that's an interesting point. This and Pons could be redirected to Cold_fusion#Fleischmann-Pons_announcement (Fleischmann-Pons_experiment is already a redirect to Cold fusion) --Enric Naval (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Google Scholar (the poor man's Science Citation Index) shows about 12,500 references to Surface Enhanced Raman Scattering; Fleischmann had a lot to do with its discovery. I believe that the guy would have been notable even if the cold fusion fiasco had never happened. Cardamon (talk) 09:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would agree that this is a core problem. In fact, I wonder if this article should simply be a redirect. At the moment it seems ot me to hover between WP:BLP1E and WP:COATRACK]. Guy (Help!) 23:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Fleischmann has only published a few papers on cold fusion, and he is notable almost exclusively for his work on that field, and articles on scientists use to have a list of papers published by them (and yeah, that includes conference proceedings). It's not as if Fleischmann has hundreds of papers and we have to decide which are relevant and which are not.I hate to use a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but we actually make laundry lists on articles of scientists and writers, see List_of_scientific_publications_by_Albert_Einstein or Freeman_Dyson#By_Dyson (includes stuff like notes from a lecture) and Terry_Pratchett#Bibliography (see the last section "Collaborations and contributions") --Enric Naval (talk) 20:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- No, not a full list - and it's not a "publication" as conference papers are not peer-reviewed. Do you have an independent source for the significance of that piece of work within Fleischmann's overall career? Otherwise we're just getting into laundry list territory. Guy (Help!) 18:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, if I'm correct, Fleischmann was well-known in the electrochemistry field before the Cold fusion affair, I suspect there are many other publications. The conference paper on the history was a citation, at one time, for text in the article about the history, and that is possibly a more useful way to present it, not as simply another paper. I'll look at it if I have time. The significance argument is a red herring. The Cold fusion affair is highly notable and significant, famous, and that paper is Fleischmann's account. If there is a problem with neutrality, something controversial in it, it should be attributed as his account of the history, that's all. "According to Fleischmann ...." If it were on something for which he's not known, that would be a different matter. Then independent notice would be important. Now, is there independent notice? I'm not sure, I haven't searched for it because I haven't thought it necessary. There is notice, I think, by notable scientists, which could be attributed to them, but I'd have to do the research. To me, guidelines are guidelines and the gold standard is consensus. Consensus is not only how we interpret the guidelines, but is also how they are formed and modified, as documentation of existing practice. There are certain non-negotiables established by the Foundation, but this does not approach them. --Abd (talk) 21:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Abd, can you point at any source asserting notability outside the Cold fusion thing? If not, he would fall under BLP1E. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I believe I can. I've read over and over that he was very well known in electrochemistry before the CF affair, that's one reason why so many electrochemists took the announcement seriously and did the work to reproduce the effect, and were generally more successful, apparently, than physicists who didn't have a clue about electrochemistry. It was a fundamentally electrochemical experiment, it didn't use the tools of nuclear physics, and where he did, he screwed it up, that Compton edge problem, right? So I'll look for some sources.
- Missing the point. This is a conference proceeding at a fringe conference, it is not a peer-reviewed paper. I would like to see some independent evidence that it is considered significant as an element of his overall body of work. That is perfectly normal, and the onus is clearly on those proposing disputed content to justify its inclusion. What I have asked is pretty straightforward and a normal interpretation of WP:UNDUE: an external independent reference that marks this as significant, rather than simply being part of the long-term campaign of POV-pushing by CF activists. This is nto to doubt Enric's good faith, it is to question the relevance of a paper presented at a conference on a pariah field within electrochemistry, a reaosnable request for any content in a WP:BLP. Guy (Help!) 22:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
JzG, do you have reliable source that the conference was a "fringe conference." Further, *no claim is made, at least not by me, that this paper is a "significant element" of his work. It's not his work, actually, it is his history of his work. As to long-term campaigning by CF activists, this is an encyclopedia, and what activists did or did not do is irrelevant. Valid content doesn't become invalid because somebody pushed it. Further, who added this link to the article? Was it a CF activist? Have you ever bothered to look? Hint: I have, and I've written who did, but, you know what? You don't seem to read what is written, you keep reading some kind of battle with "CF activists" and "POV pushers," and everything is interpreted through that lens. That's why we have WP:BATTLE. Battles cause collateral damage. And the "fringe POV pushers" aren't the only ones crossing the line.
What you are claiming, essentially, is that autobiographical material, edited for publication by a university, isn't relevant for a biography of the person. Do you really think this would stand up to discussion by the community? Want to find out? I don't suggest it at all, but if you do one more removal here without consensus, like you did the last four, we will find out. Well, I just looked. You did. Sorry. See you around. --Abd (talk) 05:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Um, no, what I'm claiming is that conference papers delivered at fringe conferences are not notable in the career of a living individual unless independent sources say they are. Of course it's a fringe conference, it's a gathering of those proposing cold fusion; our article makes it absolutely plain that it is de facto fringe. Which is probably why this is published on a kook website rather than in a journal with some independent peer-review process. If Fleischmann wants to put an autobiogprahy on his university website we can absolutely use that, WP:SELFPUB would support it, in this case the material is not an autobiography and it's not subject to objective peer-review so WP:SELFPUB indicates non-inclusion absent independent evidence. Autobiography is biographical material about oneself, this is simply self-authored self-published material, a completely different matter. You seem to be using WP:ABF as the major justification for yuour actions and refusing to engage on the policy issues I have raised, please stop doing that. Guy (Help!) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the latest in a series of reasons given why this source can't be used. At some point, I have to conclude that the source isn't the problem, it's something else. I find the argument above bizarre. Fleischmann, it is acknowledged, can put up an autobiography, on a site he controls, and we can use it. An account of personal history is an autobiography. The source is Fleischmann's account of the history of the cold fusion affair, what was in his mind as he pursued the research. As Fleischman is notable, and cold fusion is notable, this paper is inherently notable, as long as it is reliably sourced to Fleischmann. This paper does include descriptions of his scientific ruminations, but the paper isn't cited to prove any scientific point, it is about the history, what led to his startling announcement in 1989, etc. It isn't "published by a kook website." That attitude is, unfortunately, a big part of the problem, this has become personal between JzG and Rothwell, the manager of the site. The paper was published by Tsinghua University, as part of the conference proceedings. This establishes that the university considered the conference notable. Hence, if we can use Fleischmann's writings, self-published, JzG is asserting that we can't use his writings if published in conference proceedings, which would be more notable, not less?
No, the initial issue here was lenr-canr.org. JzG removed all links to lenr-canr.org, giving reasons of "copyright infringement," "unreliable source," "fringe," etc. Here, he makes up more reasons. He is simply trying to enforce his position, previously by using his admin tools, and here by edit warring. He's now removed this source from this article six times. At what point do we say, "Enough! Discuss before removal!" I'm not reverting him. I don't edit war. WP:EDITWAR is more important than whether or not this source is in this article, but apparently JzG disagrees. What, exactly, is the emergency that justifies such firmness of position? What harm does this paper do if linked? It must be great, in JzG's mind, or else he would not risk so much.
I know dispute resolution, and I'll follow it. To me, edit warring is not an option, I dislike even one revert, and I never assert two unless other editors have joined me, and with three, I'd need to see more than one such editor or have very, very strong reasons, such as serious BLP issues or clear copyvio.
For reference, the edit warring here, I reported at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#JzG_edit_warring_on_Martin_Fleischmann. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Abd, I removed the links because the site was abused, copyright violating material was found, falsification of sources was found, and the site is unreliable and has been extensively promoted by its owner. This is absolutely normal and correct. We do it all the time. Your crusade seems to be based entirely on the asserion of ill-intent and base motives, and you have no evidence to support this, and have been repeatedly asked to stop it. Guy (Help!) 18:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm relatively new to the details of this page, but, IMHO:
- We cannot use a self-pubished list or a self-published list edited by the university as a source for a list of publications. Individual publications which can be verified may be listed.
- We can use a self-published "history" as an indication of what he says, especially if it differs from "official" histories. (See my new section, below.)
- Conference proceedings are not normally peer-reviewed, but do constitute publications, and are an indication that the conference may have invited the speaker. If it's a fringe conference, the invitation might still be notable.
- — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Absolutely. And the way we know, is that independent sources say so. All I have asked is for those independent sources, which would seem to me to be a reasonable minimum before linking to fringe material on a blacklisted website. Only Abd seems to think this is especially controversial. Guy (Help!) 18:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- I looked at Wikipedia:PROF#Criteria, he meets points 3 and 7, and you only need one of them to keep the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Trying to find out what's really going on
After going through various edits, I think that the following differences in viewpoint clashed due to miscommunication. The paper in question is:
- A dubious cold fusion research paper, submitted to and published by a fringe (cold fusion) conference.
- A piece of autobiography describing the most important events in the BLP subject's life. It's clearly authentic because it was published by the university press of a major university.
The fact that this paper is available on lenr-canr.org is:
- Because it is a cold fusion pushing, copyright violating website.
- In line with standard practice of scientific publishing: authors often obtain the right to co-publish a paper on their homepage; in this case in a similar place.
The purpose of including the paper in the publications list is:
- To cite a non-notable bad science article from a Wikipedia article in order to push the cold fusion POV. To generate traffic for lenr-canr.org.
- To cite a paper in which the BLP subject gives an autobiographical account of those events in his life which would turn him from a respected scientist into a pariah. To make it easily accessible.
My first reaction in each case was to choose 2, but I can see how Guy might choose 1. It seems hard to reconcile these two POVs since the outcome is more or less binary: The paper is or isn't cited. But acknowledgements from either side that the other POV is a reasonable one to hold could help to avoid further escalation. --Hans Adler (talk) 21:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, Hans. Absolutely, it is possible to hold the exclusion position, particularly if the full facts and relevant guidelines aren't considered. Beyond that, it isn't clear, because what has happened, as often happens with polarized situations, a farrago of arguments are presented, and even if each one of them is false or misleading, the assembly can look impressive. Let me go over the possibilities you gave, and I think this approach is excellent.
- A dubious cold fusion research paper. It's actually an account of the history, not of new research. Straight from the horse's mouth, I'd say it's invaluable. In the end, the conference presentation only establishes notability within the field of the conference.
- It's clearly authentic, there have been no claims otherwise, credible or not. I.e., the author is Fleischmann.
- cold fusion pushing site. It's irrelevant for our purposes whether or not the site is pushing some POV. The site is not the source, the paper is, the site is only for a copy of the paper. We can cite the paper without the site. However, the decision on the [[User:Enric Naval|] requested whitelisting (permanent link) to today's copy of the discussion, which considered both "very unreliable source and host of copyvios." was to whitelist the link to the paper. That, of course, doesn't prejudice decisions here about appropriateness, it merely prejudices, to a degree, claims of exclusion here for "unreliable source" and "host of copyvios." The decision was made on February 1, and could be reversed, but JzG did not protest there until February 16, after he had already removed Enric's replacement of the link in the article (remember, it was there from before JzG's original removal on December 18 when he blacklisted lenr-canr.org), and he had already removed the citation here twice, and was one minute away from the third time. I'll get back to this.
- copyright violating. See the whitelist discussion, but also other discussions can be cited showing opinion from several administrators that copyvio is very unlikely. JzG has, again and again, for a long time, asserted copyvio, the question has been addressed many times. He's prevailed several times, but with a farrago of arguments, and no actual evidence of copyright violation, only a presumption that if it was published by Elsevier, there must be no permission, since, according to JzG, Elsevier doesn't give permission. How does he know? Well, apparently he asked once, and they said something like "No, we don't do that." Argument per anecdote. This is the fact: we have no evidence of copyright violation, therefore we do not "know" that there is violation. The site is highly notable based on google searches, and it is impossible that serious copyright violation would be hosted there given that, they'd be shot down in a flash. WP:COPYLINK only suggests that we not knowingly link to violating material. This accusation, which is actually libelous, should stop, unless there is evidence.
- In line with standard practice. lenr-canr.org's manager, Jed Rothwell, has written, in a letter reproduced in the delisting discussion locally before JzG went to meta and made it moot, that he obtains permission from both authors and publishers before hosting a paper; he would like to host every paper in his very extensive bibliography, but he's only been able to get permission for a third of them (as I recall). It is common practice, not necessarily standard. I find it for some papers and not for others. In this field, lenr-canr.org is very well known as a place to find a complete bibliography and copies of many documents, and the google results show that.
- purpose of inclusion to push CF POV. The link was originally added here, 16 December 2008, by Petri Krohn [3]. However, he was copying the references from Cold fusion on a section, so, while he should be considered responsible for what he added, it could be argued that he didn't pay attention to the particular reference. The link was added to Cold fusion October 8, 2008, by Pcarbonn (now topic banned for treating Wikipedia as a battleground. (In some prior discussions I may have confused this a bit.) Because of the insertion by Pcarbonn, the claim of purpose is plausible; but, in fact, the purpose of an editor for inclusion, as to original insertion, is irrelevant when other editors assert the content. This time, the link was inserted, after a lot of trouble getting it whitelisted -- it is not easy -- by User:Enric Naval, and there is no credible assertion that his motive is POV. I supported him and I'll leave it to others to judge my motives, but I'll say, for myself, no. I favor NPOV way above any personal POV, which doesn't mean I don't have POVs, I do, and I need them and I need to know them.
- to generate traffic for lenr-canr.org. This is actually preposterous, the effect of this link on traffic for lenr-canr.org would be negligible. JzG in the past has confused lenr-canr.org with newenergytimes.com, where Pcarbonn wrote an article (a rather good one, actually) on Wikipedia process, it's referenced in the ArbComm case on Pcarbonn. But the paper is excellent for anyone interested in knowing Fleischmann's view of the history, and I assume that was Pcarbonn's motive, there is no reason to suspect anything else about "traffic," and I'm also certain this wasn't Enric's purpose, nor would this purpose have been tolerated by the blacklist admin who whitelisted.
- To cite a paper in which the BLP subject gives an autobiographical account of those events in his life which would turn him from a respected scientist into a pariah. To make it easily accessible. Uh, yes, well said. The paper part refers to the original publication by Tsinghua University, the "make it easily accessible" is why whitelisting was requested for the link to lenr-canr.org.
- I'd like to know which of these points are seriously in contention; then, as to those which are, we can start a section on it specifically and try to find consensus; failing that, we can go for RfC. --Abd (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- I took JzG's repetitive removal of the link to Fleischmann's article to AN/I, where, as often happens, editors ignored the behavioral issue and began dealing with the content issue, and, since AN/I isn't about content, the discussion was then closed as being inappropriate for AN/I. But this does leave us with the content issue. Since no other editor here supported JzG's position on this link, I'm restoring it. I am enforcing consensus, not my personal opinion; while I think the paper is extraordinarily useful, it may be more useful in the Cold fusion article. But it is not out of place here. --Abd (talk) 04:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it is out of place. No other editor than you has opposed his position, so you are not enforcing "consensus". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I too support the removal of material from lenr-canr.org Cardamon (talk) 07:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I wrote in another place that it was 4:1 for inclusion. It's now 4:3. Just so it's clear. That proves nothing except that inclusion is a reasonable position. Do you need a list of those who supported inclusion? It's been presented elsewhere. At the time of writing, JzG was the only one taking the link out.--Abd (talk) 22:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Did you two even read my comment with which this section started, or is there a TLDR problem? Arthur, if you think I am "no other editor" (like Threeafterthree seems to do) then please report me or Abd as a sockpuppet. Cardamon, this is not "material from lenr-canr.org", this is (among other things) highly relevant autobiographical material which the author, instead of putting it on his professional homepage, published in conference proceedings that were published by the university press of Tsinghua University. The link to lenr-canr.org is simply because that's where the paper is available for free. So far nobody has denied these easily verified facts, and none of those who oppose inclusion of the citation have given any argument why the BLP subject's formally published statement about the facts surrounding his main claim to notability must be censored.
- Please stop the stonewalling and start responding to rational arguments with rational arguments rather than by closing your ears and repeating your one argument that has been dismissed for a good reason which you are not responding to. --Hans Adler (talk) 07:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- This is the third time I've been in a discussion like this about the reliability of information hosted on lenr-canr. This is what I said the first time in this thread; it links to two previous discussions of the issue. Briefly, JzG caught lenr-canr altering a PDF. Cardamon (talk) 10:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- What I've seen is that there will be a discussion in which a laundry list of arguments, many of the irrelevant, are presented. There is no actual conclusion, but those who read it are left with an impression. And then that gets presented now. Cardamon, do you want to stand on that conclusion, take responsibility for it? You vouch for the evidence? Be careful, please.
- I couldn't find the links Cardamon asserts above, but I do know what JzG has asserted on this. Lenr-canr.org hosts copies of the 1989 and 2004 DOE reports. They include an introduction by and attributed to Rothwell. A publisher decides to republish a public domain document and puts an introduction with it, I've seen it many times. Should we link to that paper? Probably, not, if there is a more direct and more reliable links. But that it totally irrelevant to this particular link, here. Please focus on this link. I'm sorry I've given so much background, but because this blast from the past keeps recurring, I believe I need to clear it up. In the old discussion, Cardomon, you also asserted, and some seemed to assume, the copy violation charges and claims were made that if we linked to a legitimate paper there, readers could alter the URL and find copyvios. However, they can do the same thing anyway, if they simply have the authors and name of a paper hosted at lenr-canr.org, it's typically top return from Google.
- In my own study of this, I concluded that it was conclusions first, evidence and arguments later. I.e., a conclusion has been made, and then arguments are manufactured to bolster the original argument. That's why we need to look at one issue at a time; otherwise it becomes, "Well, that argument might be a bit weak, but there are five other arguments." What I've seen, over many years of dealing with stuff like this (back to the 1980s on The WELL, is that when the second argument is demolished, the response remains identical. The number of "other arguments" does not decline. People make conclusions based on seat-of-the-pants affinities, first impressions, etc., and sometimes it can be very difficult to dislodge them, no matter how much and how cogent a body of evidence is presented, unless there is some orderly process that goes through the arguments and deals with each one, with conciousness of the overall balance. It happens on Wikipedia, but usually only at the RfC level or above, most reliably at ArbComm, where each finding of fact and conclusion is debated and voted on. --Abd (talk) 22:48, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the meaningful response. I won't say anything to it for now, because the discussions you are linking to are slightly vague about what actually happened and don't seem to give an exact pointer to an earlier discussion with more detail. Perhaps I will have more time to look into this later. In any case it seems to me that this is only an argument for not linking to lenr-canr.org, while citing the paper is fine. Is that correct? Sorry I didn't understand that earlier. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:16, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- What has happened here is a wall has arised with layers of arguments. Material from lenr-canr.org was removed on argument of copyright violation. This argument persisted even when no examples were given that actually show violation, and there is quite a bit of evidence and opinion by knowledgeable editors that there is no reason to assume the site is violating copyright. But if we get through that barrier, then it has been asserted that the site is fringe and the material fringe, POV-pushing. But this is a biography of Fleischmann, not a science article. If Cold fusion is fringe, he is fringe and to write a biography on him, we may need to reference some "fringe" sources, particularly the autobiographical one like this. (It also discusses the science, but it's quite clearly his opinion or recollection.) So, get through that barrier, then it's allegedly been linkspammed. I've seen no evidence of linkspam, but JzG managed to convince the meta editors to blacklist based on allegations of copyvio, fringe, and linkspamming, even though the "linkspamming" alleged wasn't links! (That takes the cake, actually!) And I'm not going to raise the issue again at meta until we have some usages, I know exactly what the arguments will be. So Enric Naval went to the trouble of requesting whitelisting, and Beetstra granted it. Then Enric put it back in the article, and JzG took it out, and began the seesaw of arguments again. He'd take it out with one argument, that would be answered and it would be put back in, so he'd take it out with a new argument. No sign of willingness to discuss before reverting. The "conference proceeding not reviewed" argument was given before, and considered. It's not relevant here, because this is a biography of Fleischmann, and it's his paper!
- As to reliability of lenr-canr.org, that's totally irrelevant here. lenr-canr.org is a library of papers where the site has (they claim and it is likely to be true) received permission from authors and publishers to host them. Lenr-canr.org isn't the source, the original documents are, in this case Conference proceedings published by Tsinghua University. There is no reason to believe that the document is altered by lenr-canr.org. It would be pretty silly, it would trash their credibility. The book is hard to get, but there are copies in the U.S., for example. I'll answer Cardamon about the allegedly altered PDF, above. I wonder if people here are aware that charging lenr-canr.org with copyright violation and forgery of documents is libelous? I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, if necessary, but we should be far more careful about it than JzG has been.
- To answer one specific question, yes, we can put the paper in without the link to lenr-canr.org. However, this is where Fleischmann has chosen to allow it to be hosted. It's not being used as a reference (it was in the past, and that should properly be restored). A reader seeing it could then search for it and find it quite easily. For example, search for "Fleischmann searching Tsinghua" Today, top hit is Wikipedia. Just below that is lenr-canr.org. I've typically found that, lenr-canr.org doesn't need Wikipedia for page rank. My question is -- and was with respect to many links to lenr-canr.org -- "Why not link a cited paper to a site which hosts it?" It's a service to the readers, the counterargument has been it's "not necessary to satisfy verifiability standards, which is true but obtuse, when it comes to the purpose of the project. --Abd (talk) 22:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know specifically about lenr-cnar.org, but there are some sites which really do put up false transcripts of documents or articles. If lenr-cnar did that once, it should remain inappropriate as references for the content of the articles, until the management changes. Perhaps it shouldn't be blacklisted, to allow references in an article about itself.
- It still seems possible to include if that citation tag accepts "format=disputed reprint"; I haven't checked that particular citation tag to see if it does, but some questionable sites are allowable with the appropriate format tag. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- What has happened here is a wall has arised with layers of arguments. Material from lenr-canr.org was removed on argument of copyright violation. This argument persisted even when no examples were given that actually show violation, and there is quite a bit of evidence and opinion by knowledgeable editors that there is no reason to assume the site is violating copyright. But if we get through that barrier, then it has been asserted that the site is fringe and the material fringe, POV-pushing. But this is a biography of Fleischmann, not a science article. If Cold fusion is fringe, he is fringe and to write a biography on him, we may need to reference some "fringe" sources, particularly the autobiographical one like this. (It also discusses the science, but it's quite clearly his opinion or recollection.) So, get through that barrier, then it's allegedly been linkspammed. I've seen no evidence of linkspam, but JzG managed to convince the meta editors to blacklist based on allegations of copyvio, fringe, and linkspamming, even though the "linkspamming" alleged wasn't links! (That takes the cake, actually!) And I'm not going to raise the issue again at meta until we have some usages, I know exactly what the arguments will be. So Enric Naval went to the trouble of requesting whitelisting, and Beetstra granted it. Then Enric put it back in the article, and JzG took it out, and began the seesaw of arguments again. He'd take it out with one argument, that would be answered and it would be put back in, so he'd take it out with a new argument. No sign of willingness to discuss before reverting. The "conference proceeding not reviewed" argument was given before, and considered. It's not relevant here, because this is a biography of Fleischmann, and it's his paper!
- This is the third time I've been in a discussion like this about the reliability of information hosted on lenr-canr. This is what I said the first time in this thread; it links to two previous discussions of the issue. Briefly, JzG caught lenr-canr altering a PDF. Cardamon (talk) 10:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
<outdent>For anyone who is unable or does not have the time to follow links, this is what Guy wrote here:
Checking sources, always a good idea. For example, when the article mentioned the DoE report it linked to what looked as if it was a mirror of the report on lenr-canr.org. I would prefer to link direct to the report on a .gov domain, so I opened the pdf to get the report number and reference. Guess what? The pdf turns out to begin with a polemic by Jed Rothwell. Who, as far as I can tell, linked the thing.
The possibility that files hosted on lenr-canr.org may not always be the same as the original material is not irrelevant here; it IS the major point. @Abd - Assuming good faith, you did not toss around legal terms in an attempt to intimidate editors with whom you disagree. @Hans - yes, a reference to this paper that did not go thru lenr-canr could be used as evidence of what Fleischmann has said about, for example, his own thought processes. (It would be good to obtain an actual copy of it rather than relying on lenr-canr to not have made any changes in it.) Since conference proceedings are often (I am tempted to say "usually") not peer reviewed, I would be wary of using it as a source for any controversial facts. Cardamon (talk) 18:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, Cardamon. That's the affair that I was already aware of. It's been highly misrepresented. First of all, linking to the government was apparently impossible. However, the lenr-canr.org document referenced another site, not a reliable source in itself, which hosts a copy without any introduction, and I agree that this would be a better use than a copy with an editorial introduction by Rothwell, neutral or otherwise, (and I think this is what is currently linked in the reference). I've already considered the issue above, there was no misrepresentation of content involved. Yet this incident has been described as if distortion or misrepresentation of sources was involved. This was an editorial introduction (which is unusual on lenr-canr.org; it's probably related to this being a public domain document, unlike most of what lenr-canr.org hosts). Was it polemic? We don't need to know here, but I don't think so. I'll give the URL, minus http:// to the page, you can decide for yourself. However, this is totally moot with respect to the link proposed here, and the editorial comment was clearly distinct from the government document itself, no reader would have been confused.
- I've found some of the original diffs, I'll come back with them and with a link to the problem page, if it still exists on lenr-canr.org or if it's in the wayback machine. --Abd (talk) 15:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Removal on argument of "conference papers often aren't reviewed."
JzG had the last edit in the seesaw reported above, and I reverted that yesterday, no support having appeared for the removal. Today, however, Arthur Rubin reverted, not having participated here, and giving an argument which was considered above (and generally rejected, though with low participation). Let's assume -- I will grant or concede -- that there was no review, this was merely a paper written by Fleischmann, possibly subject to some editing, but simply being his personal account of the history of his research into Cold fusion. Is this therefore not usable? The question has been considered above, and guidelines indicate that even "self-published" material by a notable author, on the topic for which the author is notable, are generally usable with attribution. This paper is almost unique in that it gives Fleischmann's view of the history; I learned things in it that have been quite absent from other material. Most notably, why did Pons and Fleischmann run electrolysis of deuterium for the months it took at that time to see some anomalous effects? It's an important paper, and it's clearly notable. (That's what the Conference adds, though it could have been simply self-published.) Given that there is so much history on this, and that I could expect that reversion of this latest edit might be controversial, I'm simply going to look for consensus on this. On the topic of usability, right now it's running something like 4:2 in favor of inclusion, not that numbers matter that much. I just say that point out that I'm not simply being difficult! --Abd (talk) 21:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- Arthur put the reference back (thanks), but not the link. Why not the link? There is no credible assertion that the paper hosted at lenr-canr.org is fraudulent. The paper is quite useful to anyone who wants a deeper perspective into the history. Citing it but not pointing to a copy permitted by the author and publisher seems perverse to me. User:Enric Naval specifically got this link whitelisted so it could be used here. To try to keep the dicussion specific, I'm starting a new subsection below. --Abd (talk) 05:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Should readers be given a link to the paper where they can read it?
I'd argue that it's stingy not to give readers, if possible and if we have it, a link where they can read a permitted copy of a paper or reference. While some readers may find the paper anyway (are very likely to do so if they search for it, lenr-canr.org will often come up at the top of Google searches), I see utterly no harm in providing the link that we have all used to read the paper, if we've read it before edit warring over it. If the paper is allowed, the whitelisted link should be with it. If there is disagreement on this, please be as specific as possible, so the issue can be addressed with clarity. --Abd (talk) 05:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This discussion assumes that the paper can be cited. Please don't argue here about that larger question, there is current consensus -- which can be challenged -- that it may be cited, but that issue distracts from the much simpler issue here. We have a paper listed (and it's been used in the past as a source, I believe), the paper is printed but may be very difficult to obtain in that form, and it is hosted on lenr-canr.org. I don't these facts are under contention. So I'm going to list the arguments as subsections; if we don't compartmentalize discussion like this, we are unlikely to get anywhere, as arguments that aren't supported simply get repeated in larger discussions. If there are other arguments or new arguments, logically distinct, please add new subsections, and please keep the discussion in each subsection clearly on point. --Abd (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
If no cogent argument against insertion appears here within a reasonable time, my intention is to replace the link so that readers can read the paper easily, pending close of this discussion. I will not do so as long as discussion continues without apparent consensus, even though at this point there are more editors who have supported the link than have expressed opposition to it. --Abd (talk) 23:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- This is the wrong forum for the discussion. WP:RSN seems more appropriate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
- Why? This is a question of a convenience copy, as noted below, not of the use of lenr-canr.org as a normal "reliable source." I see no reason why we can't attempt to resolve this locally, before taking it somewhere else or escalating to a content RfC. But if other editors would prefer that this be discussed at WP:RSN, I have no objection to that. --Abd (talk)
- Objections to linking to it seem to be of the WP:IDONTLIKEIT variety; some people dislike that site because it's "fringe", so will keep coming up with every bogus objection they can in order to keep from linking to such a BADSITE. *Dan T.* (talk) 12:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Lenr-canr.org allegedly hosts copyright violations
Consensus is that Lenr-canr.org should not be treated as clearly hosting copyvio. --Abd (talk) 04:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
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old claim, and oft repeated. Evidence? Be aware, this has been discussed in many places, I've seen no cogent evidence, and experienced editors have commented that there is no reason to believe there is copyvio there. --Abd (talk) 19:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Among the places this has been discussed is this, on the blacklist page. It refers to this opinion by DGG. JzG responded to DGG's comment, citing his own actions, or possibly the actions of others based on his copyright claim, as evidence of copyright violation, and then he immediately archived the discussion. There is, however, extended argument on the copyright question on the blacklist page. That discussion did not resolve the copyright issue because it became moot, as, during it, JzG went to meta and requested blacklisting there. He reasserted the copyright issue. The request was granted before any contesting argument was heard. Discussion continued, however, with JzG arguing at length. DGG commented there as well, stating why he thought copyright violation was unlikely. The close was by a meta admin who did not confirm JzG's concerns about copyright, but decided based on allegations of linkspamming (which is moot for this subquestion). --Abd (talk) 21:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Conclusions re copyvioLenr-canr.org should not be treated as hosting copyvio. proposed by Abd (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lenr-canr.org allegedly is a fringe web site or biasedThis should be moot for this usage. Bias could explain why lenr-canr.org hosts the paper, though indications are that they host every related document (skeptical or supportive) where they have been able to get permission, which may be something like one out of three documents listed in their bibliography. We currently, in Cold fusion, reference a copy of the 1989 DOE review of cold fusion, using http://www.ncas.org/erab/, that's the National Capitol Area Skeptics. I've seen nobody complain about this. There is no reason to believe the Skeptics would alter the review, and the same review has been available from lenr-canr.org, but with an editorial introduction. The same argument applies for any document hosted at lenr-canr.org. The original document is the source, and the link is to a convenience copy. --Abd (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC) From Wikipedia:CITE#Convenience_links:
From this, "fringe" would apply to preference order, and suggests additional caution with regard to accuracy, but, by itself, doesn't prohibit linking. --Abd (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Conclusions re Fringe"Fringe" is relevant to WP:RS, not for convenience links to copies of documents otherwise usable. proposed by Abd (talk) 23:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Linking to fringe or strongly POV sites is slightly undesirable, but not enough, in this case, to support exclusion of sufficiently useful links. [Proposed by Phil 153, below, added here and made case-specific by --Abd (talk) 02:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC).]
Proposed close of this issueI see above that there are two Oppose comments; however, Phil153 made it clear that his oppose was to the statement as a general principle, and he may have overlooked the qualifer: "if otherwise usable." He stated that the fringe argument was This leaves the Oppose of Arthur Rubin, which likewise seems to be against the general statement rather than the specific application here. Arthur, will you withdraw your opposition to the proposed consensus, if it is clear that this is not a general argument that "fringe" is never relevant, but rather that, for this usage, where the fringe POV of the site is not reflected in the content of the paper (except, of course, that the site might have been granted permission for reasons connected with their POV), "fringe" may be set aside? This may still leave us with the question of alteration; setting aside the fringe issue, a history of alteration of content would remain a potential argument against linking.--Abd (talk) 04:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Lenr-canr.org allegedly alters documentsAll claims of this nature, as far as I know, have been based on an editorial introduction given to one of the DOE reviews, The discussion of the blacklisting on meta includes the link to the allegedly altered document, provided by JzG: lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ERABreportofth.pdf (http:// has been removed so the blacklist doesn't stop this edit). JzG also copies to the meta discussion, the introduction. While certainly not neutral, it's also not polemic. I agree with every statement in it (without having verified some of the asserted facts, such as bacteria in heavy water). We have also a reliable source below which confirms some of the claims about the 1989 DOE report. But Rothwell's opinions don't constitute reliable source, it was proper to link directly to the Skeptics' copy of the paper instead of one with editorial comment, leaving only the one issue: was this the kind of "alteration" which would call into question the reliability of copies on lenr-canr.org, and I conclude, clearly, no. A link was given to another copy without any editorial comment (which is still used at Cold fusion, even though it is not, itself a reliable source) and the editorial comment was clearly set off from the document itself. So this argument is moot. --Abd (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Conclusions re document alterationOnly fraudulent alteration, not shown for lenr-canr.org, would be relevant. proposed by Abd (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Addition of an introduction before a document, clearly marked as separate from the document itself, is not reason to suspect a site of altering the internal content of any document without marking it as such. proposed by ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:14, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Link was allegedly inserted by JedRothwell, alleged POV-pusher and COIConsensus is that Who added the link is irrelevant to its continued usage. --Abd (talk) 04:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
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