Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters

Super Saiyan 2

Goten or Trunks can't go Super Saiyan 2 what about the GT Perfect Files? User:KoziKaz 12 November 2008

Also, Turles from the Dragon ball Z movie; the tree of might, wasn't mentioned in the list of dragon ball characters 3-20-2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.24.154.93 (talk) 05:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Tarble

Tarble, Vegeta's brother should be included here.He appears in Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! Saimaroimaru 2008 (talk) 23:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Just because he appears in some DB media, he doens't have to be on this list. Wikipedia is not a directory. -- Goodraise (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

if you feel that way then King Cold, Pikkon, Spopovich and Brolly should not be on here. Yami (talk) 19:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say he should or should not be on the list. I merely stated, that appearing in some DB media is not enough reason for inclusion. Remember when Radditz landed on earth? There was this farmer guy. He appears in DB, but that doesn't mean he should be on this list! -- Goodraise (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

But he still plays a significant role as Vegeta's younger brother. Also this list is only for those who have appeared more then once, Turles and Lord Slug have appeared more than once you still refuse to put them. And General Blue and Captain Red, for god sakes they had entire sagas just about them and they're not even listed. Even the character Tapion, minor he may be but he also plays a significant role as he was the one who gave Trunks the sword.

I swear this whole minor rule should be checked more. --VitasV (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you're talking to me or some other editor on this page. Anyways, I'll say it again. I did not "refuse to put" any character. I only pointed something out. -- Goodraise (talk) 21:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

But still this whole rule with no minor characters has got to stop as there are many characters who arn't minor who arn't in and minor who play significant roles. And also how they're minor if they had less than 2 appearances is nonsence since there are few characters who have had more then one appearance and arn't added in. The whole minor rule has to stop! --VitasV (talk) 00:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but the rule isn't going to "stop" as it is in compliance with multiple Wikipedia guidelines. Being Vegeta's younger brother doesn't make him majorly important to the series. As relevant, he can be mentioned in Vegeta's section. One ep/chapter character just aren't notable to the series as a whole. There are many similar ones in other series and they are not listed in the higher quality lists for those series. Again, see List of Naruto characters, an FLC list. It does not have minor characters. For details on minor characters, again, there are fansites and the DB wikia. For Wikipedia, we provide summary coverage and minor characters have no place in a summary beyond their brief mentions in their appropriate episode/volume summaries. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

And there u go again with minor. Turles and Slug have appeared more than once yet they're still classified as minor. --VitasV (talk) 23:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, number of appearances alone do not make them notable. There are characters in many series who appear in almost every episode who are still minor. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't make them minor. That would mean they're notable or significant. --VitasV (talk) 00:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it doesn't make them either. Background characters are still background characters, irregardless of number of appearances. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Andorid 16's bomb and power level sensing ability

Since multiple users have reverted the alterations of myself and Useight, and the User Sesshomaru redirected discussion to Collectonian's Talk page, who then removed the whole discussion from his talk page both resulting in counter productivity, I shall bring it here.

Here is a link to the proposed alteration to Android #16's information Useight/Sandbox

Citations have been found for the mention and addition of Android #16's bomb being removed, and his ability to sense Ki, Fighting Spirits or Power Levels depending on your terminology.

Note that This site Giant Bomb Android 16 does require user registration to edit content, not unlike Internet Movie Database and Animenewnetwork. All of which have been used widely and are considered reliable even with the ability to edit their content. A vast majority of Articles use both of the latter mentioned sites.

Please also note that much of the article is not properly cited, yet allowed to be as is. Apparently multiple users would rather follow the rules and guidelines to a T when it comes to not adding/disallowing the addition un-cited content or content cited with questionable reliability, but not to removing un-cited content that already exist.

This act of discriminatory editing has contributed to counter productivity, and resulted in multiple disputes and situations that boarder on WP:OWN and WP:CIV violations.

The User Useight has added Fact tags to the content before, but was removed by the user Collectonian Here despite there being a window of time allowed to find citations for fact tagged items, and the wording not set in stone.

Thought the content added to Androids #17 and #18 can be dismissed the content added to Android #16 is vital to the character, as they contribute to key elements of the character and story arcs he appears in.

Fact tags give editors time to cite their editorials, and should not be subject to immediate removal. Also the concept of excessive plot details and excessive addition of known unsourcable items is viewed on a person by person basis.

I recommend that the information pertaining to Android 16 be added in order to improve the quality of the article. Yami (talk) 20:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Per the discussion, it was agreed you'd work on it in the Sandbox, which you now seem to be ignoring and instead are claiming people are being uncivil and continuing to argue the issue. I also recommended that if you felt that the information was valid and wanted more views, then a request should be made for additional project input (which you ignored, but I will now do). Thus far not a single reliable source has been found for any of what you want to add, and the burden is on YOU to do that as the person wanting to add per guidelines. Fact tags do not automatically mean the content can't be removed, particularly when its clear this is not anything coming from the series, but personal opinions. Fact tags mean its plausible, but needs a source or it can be removed at any time. What you continue trying to add, being unsourcable to the series, is WP:OR and that doesn't belong here. Wikipedia is not the place for the airing of fan views, it is for reliably sourced content. www.giantbomb.com is a fansite, no matter what wrappings you put on it. Being required to register to edit means nothing. It does NOT meet WP:RS. Also, to correct your mispeaking, IMDB is also NOT considered a reliable source. Just because people stick it in articles doesn't mean its allowed. ANN is allowed as a reliable source with strong limits, as spelled out in the project.

Excessive plot details may be viewed on a person by person basis, but those far you are the only person claiming those are vital details that are notable for the OVERALL plot, not just for fans of the series who might care about minute details. Sesshomaru and I both have noted they are minor details based on our experiences in working with such articles and looking at actual high quality lists (i.e. FL level lists). We have pointed you to multiple guidelines related to this issue, but you continue saying we're "owning" and being uncivil because we have told you this and said the content didn't belong, neither of which is true at all. Being uncivil would be calling you an idiot or something, not informing you of existing guidelines and noting that we are speaking from experience. There is no "discriminatory editing" here, its called good editing based on knowledge, Wikipedia and project guidelines, and our experiences as active members in the anime/manga realm. You are the one making this an issue of editors instead of content, attacking the editors when you can't back up the content's validity. Again, for the record, I continue to oppose the proposed edit as being excessive minor detail that is not necessary to a general overall understanding of the series nor characters and being unsourced original research. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I have been working in the sandbox if you'd take a look, and it is not WP:OR and sources have been found. If wikipedia allowed youtube you could actually see for yourself.

I talking about you mentioning me being a fan and not being neutral so you are in fact the first to take the editor into this and not the content. Also you had a aggressive and rude mannerism on your tlak page, both the accusation against me and my fandom, not keeping good faith and your aggressive rudeness counts as WP:CIV

Removing the whole discussion on your talk page and calling it silliness is also counterproductive. Calling it a snarky remark is uncivl.

I didn't ignore any thing relating to asking for input from a project. Useight said it'd seem like forum shopping and i never said anything about it. So you are mistaken there.

Original research would be going to the penis article and saying that full moons effect erections, not stating facts about characters. Much of the content I placed have been used for the characters in various forms in various articles individual, merged or listed character articles. Good editing would be removing everything not cited by your terms.

It is not an excessive plot detail to mention how #16 gets to be a head that is crushed by cells foot, saying it was cell's foot might be but not giving the reader an explanation.

During 16's repairs he had his bomb (which was nuclear in grade if you watched the show on CN) 16 snuck up on cell, who couldn't sense 16 who was a machine, and grabbed cell with a vice like lock. He tries to blow up but can't, and then it's revealed that Bulma and her father removed the device. Cell uses a blast to destroy most of 16, who is reduced to a head. Latter he convinces Mr. Satan to throw him to gohan, he gives gohan a speech, and is then crushed by cells foot. Gohan looses it and turns Super Saiyan 2.

Adding much of that is excessive, but not mentioning his act of trying to blow up, failing and being mostly destroyed, reduced to a head then later fully destroyed.

Also 16 was the one who lead the androids to Master Roshi's island where 17 and Piccolo who had just recently fused with Kami go off to fight.

If i forgot to address something let me know.

Also that fansite as you call it counts as self publish i believe, which CAN be used with in limited circumstances as described in WP:RS

The show is decades old, sites have come and gone about it. Even the official site lends little help in sourcing, and it is impossible for characters to state things and there always be a reliable source that records the statement. "Keep in mind that if the information is worth reporting, an independent source is likely to have done so." that's also from WP:RS

Yami (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Why are you wasting time trying to find sources on the internet? Sourcing the manga or anime would be much simpler and far more acceptable. And if anyone's interested in a second opinion, the only relevant edits shown here are to 16's section (excluding the "bares a remarking resemblance" part). The other additions are trivial at best.

And while I'm at it, why do none of the six images in this article illustrate a main character? Only one of them even manages to depict a secondary character. ~SnapperTo 21:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I already said multiple time the 17 and 18 bit can be dropped as well as the look like part on 16. Also how can I source the manga and anime? It would still have to say somethign about 16's ability, bulma removing the bomb, and the head thing. Wouldn't i still need some internet site to reference it? The episode where 16 reveals his ability is in the late Android Saga, Early Cell saga. The bomb, and head thing are in the Cell Games saga. Yami (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no, it doesn't. Internet references are NOT required (uh oh, emphasis) for anything on Wikipedia. Books, television series, etc can be referenced (and for many topics, books, newspapers, etc are preferred). For plot stuff like this, the primary work can be cited with no problems, its when you interpret or try to determine what something means that you need a separate citation for that claim. While I know you said you are not a "new" user (and took offense to the idea), I'm curious as to how you've been here so long without learning this? See Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources and the MoS for more explanation there. To reference the manga you use the {{cite book}} template and reference the specific page number/numbers in the volumes (preferably English since that is, presumably, the ones you're actually reading). For episodes, its {{cite episode}}. See List of Naruto characters and List of Tokyo Mew Mew characters for two well developed lists (first is FL) using those citation methods for a better idea of how it works in practice. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed there too...I think those came from some of the recent merges and really should be dropped. The whole list is definitely a big WIP in need of more strenuous cleaning, sourcing, etc but right now, it still is in the merge/no merge moments it seems. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, no, it does NOT count as a reliable source, nor does it meet the very limited availability of self-published at all. Adding your interpretation is original research. If you can't source it directly to the manga or anime, or to a real reliable source, it doesn't belong (again). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about interpretation? I've not interpreted anything. And I've been trying to cite the anime but apparently you still need the internet to prove that stuff happened.

Also please quit it with this attitude thing, seriously emphasizing NOT doesn't help any argument. Please review WP:CIV Yami (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Emphasizing NOT had nothing to do with civility. You don't seem to be getting it, so I am emphasizing the point. Please quit claiming people are being uncivil when they aren't and actually address the issues. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

So, do we know when, exactly, these events took place? Apparently the manga is 42 volumes long; it's going to be hard to source it from the manga without knowing which volume to check. Useight (talk) 05:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Androids in/ability to sense: DBZ 168
• 16, the bomb, and his destruction: DBZ 212
• 16's death: DBZ 213

Fin. ~SnapperTo 06:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sweet, thanks. Useight (talk) 07:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Season 4 Late Android Saga, Episode 138 Closing in seems to be the right episode, being that copyright laws are so strict, its hard to verify since the android saga is the 1 of the few sagas i don't own. but I'm trying to get to the most logical point where 16 reveals his ki sensing ability.

The androids take to the road to find goku. DBz might have high tech stuff but GPS really wasn't something the androids had.

If closing in is not the right episode on of the episodes before or after is it. i'll keep focusing on this part for the time. Yami (talk) 17:51, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

ok its been narrowed down. Some where between the Episode Closing In and Time Chamber 16's ability is mentioned

http://dbzepisode.org/episode-132-time-chamber/

After 18 ramshackled gokus's house, and insults chichi's fashion sense, she tells them goku isn't there.

17 ask 16 if he can track him and find his latest location. 16 says "It is difficult, but I will try. He has moved some distance from this location. My tracking mechanism has not detected his movements for the last two hours"

17 asks for more info and 16 says "Alright, Goku was last detected on a small island to the south"

Then they head out to roshi's

so i'm going serach one-by-one the ep where his ability to sense power levels is.

before anyone tries to nikpik at this, just because the term tracking mechanism is used means nothing. 16 is a android so terminology would be as basic as it comes. He does have the ability to find people and sense how strong they are with this mechanism, as he was able to do when he proclaimed cell was stronger then 17. Yami (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The episode 127 "Borrowed Powers" reveals 16's sensors being able to sense power levels (with details of where they are) 17 asks why 16 never said anything, and 16 uses the old "because you did not ask" gag. 17 and 18 seem to be able to feel the huge explosion caused by cell and piccolo fighting in ginger town, but that seems to be the limit of their ability if that is attributed to their abilities.

The episode 132 "Time Chamber" shows how the others have to use 16's ability to sense and track power levels. as mentioned in detail above. I'll get the referencing thing ready. Yami (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I gave you the chapter number (and the link to the manga list) so you wouldn't need to try and pin down when exactly the events occur. Use <ref>{{cite book|last=Toriyama|first=Akira|title=Dragon Ball Z, Volume 15|year=2004|publisher=Viz Media|chapter=Chapter 168|isbn=978-1-59116-186-8}}</ref> for the first source, and an almost identical source (changing volume and chapter number where necessary) for the others. ~SnapperTo 20:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Page numbers are also needed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

They're useful, not needed. Anyway, the example ref would cover pages 14-15. The second would be 144-150, and the third is 164-165. ~SnapperTo 20:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That's why i did the anal task of doing the episode one, because the most that is required with that is the title. Though i included the original air date, season and of course the series. its all referenced, except i can reference bulma repairing him really. the official site has a error, it actually say 16 was killed then repaired so that's made useless. 20:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Of the two, the manga is the preferred source since its the primary work. Episodes should really only be used if it is an anime only event. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Here it is, does it all look in order?

Android #16 (人造人間16号, Jinzōningen Jū Roku Gō, Artificial Human #16) is a large android developed by Dr. Gero. He is deemed a failure, and is deactivated until Android #18 reactivates and releases him. Despite the other Androids disobeying and killing Dr. Gero, #16 still follows his orders to search for and destroy Goku. Unlike the other two, #16 processes a sophisticated mechanism to sense and track power levels in real time. While trying to protect #17 and #18 from Cell, he is greatly damaged, though Bulma and her father Dr. Breifs repair him. After he is repaired, he ignores his old orders to kill Goku, and focuses on the fight against Cell. Like the other androids he had the ability to self destruct, but the device was removed during his repairs. This is made known only when #16 tried to self destruct and destroy Cell, which Cell retaliates by destroying most of #16. His head and consciousness survived, but later is destroyed by Cell, which pushes Son Gohan over the edge to Super Saiyan 2. In the anime he is voiced Hikaru Midorikawa in Japan, Jeremy Inman in the Funimation dub, and Scott McNeil in the Ocean Group dub.

Yami (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't want to stick a {{reflist}} tag here, so the reflist can be found at User:Useight/Sandbox. Useight (talk) 21:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

See above, unless these are anime specific events, the manga is the preferred reference as it is the primary work. The episodes should only really be used for episode specific stuff. Beyond that, the extraneous fields need to be cleared out and the actual episode numbers added (missing from above). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:08, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Dub or original episode number, and what do you mean by extraneous fields? do you mean all the fields i didn't fill in? I'll see about getting the manga part set up, but i'm not sure about getting the actual page numbers. Copyright laws and the love of money is one of the things that blocks you from just obtaining this info at will. Yami (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the fields that weren't filled in (and don't need to be) should be removed. Use the original episode numbers unless its referencing something specific in the dubs. The page numbers have been posted above, I believe. Should be plenty of folks here with the manga who can provide specific page numbers, though chapters are adequate for now. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I think its all cleaned up now, kind of hard to tell with the wall of text Yami (talk) 21:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

ok, i added the manga references where i could figure out where they went. specific chapters for vol 16 needed, and of course the page numbers. Yami (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

do we add this into the article now, or wait for it to reach 100% completion? Yami (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Mr Satan

This article says he's voiced by one guy in the Funi dub and another in the Ocean Group dub... surely the OG dub didn't continue past Freeza saga. If it had, surely it would have aired. Are there actually more Ocean Group episodes that we've never seen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 04:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, Since we're on the subject of this character. I really would think that the title name should be Mr. Satan and NOT Hercule. Reason being is that the name Mr. Satan definitely came first. Being that this is the original, that should be in the title instead of Hercule. Its pretty obvious that "hercule" was only added because of the would be controversy Mr. Satan would have among kids and parents in the US. Type Mr. Satan on google and see what you get. After that type Hercule and see what happens.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanyomomma (talk • contribs) 20:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

We use the official English names here, per Wikipedia guidelines. Whether you agree with that name change or not is irrelevant. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. And Ryanyomomma, please don't modify the names again unless you have consensus for it. Your grammar needs work too. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

your mom helped me with my grammar last night... That doesn't sound too great huh? I may display bad grammar, but you don't have to advertise it....at all. In other words, keep your comments to yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanyomomma (talk • contribs) 20:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I don't believe that's entirely accurate. While it is true that his name was changed to Hercule when the English dubbings were aired on Cartoon Network, the uncensored DVD and VHS versions still had it as Mr. Satan. I'm not sure what he was referred to in the English translation in the manga, but I don't see why they wouldn't leave it as Mr. Satan in there as well. So if he is referred to as Mr. Satan in both the original uncensored English dubbings of the anime and in the manga, then I'd say that this name pretty much is in his favor. And another factor in all of this would also be which name was used in the Australian, Canadian, and British airings of Dragon Ball Z, because, in case you aren't aware, the English Wikipedia does not favor words and spellings that the U.S. favors, it favors those that are favored by the majority of the world's English speaking community. So therefore, if it does turn out that the name Mr. Satan in not only the uncensored English DVDs, but also in the English manga, and in the airings of the show in other English-speaking countries, then I would say that this pretty much has Hercule beat. But I suppose I am basing this largely on assumptions, but in any case, I do feel these are valid points that should be looked into. I would look into it myself, but really don't care that much about DBZ anymore to go digging around for information on the subject. –99.20.193.88 (talk) 00:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it should be "Mr. Satan", with a note that he was referred to as "Hercule" on the Cartoon Network airings.kuwabaratheman (talk) 01:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

What is used in the manga? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, we use the official English names, with the English manga release taking precedence over the anime as it is the first release. So, the question is, what does the manga use? That is the term it should use, with a note regarding the original and the anime as appropriate. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall hearing that Viz used the name "Hercule Satan", but I don't have a copy of the manga to verify that. Hopefully someone else does. If we're going by the manga names used by Viz, though, why do we use "Master Roshi"?kuwabaratheman (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I've never read it myself, either, so if the manga is using something different, I'd think that should be changed as well. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:06, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I kind of doubt that his name was changed in the manga. They didn't censor any of sexual humor or nude scenes in the Dragon Ball manga, after all, so I can't see them censoring something as trivial as Mr. Satan's name. But again, I suppose we can't know for sure until we can get a citation from one of the English manga. –99.20.193.88 (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Can we settle with "Hercule Satan"? That is what he is called in the uncut DVDs and manga's ( LINK REMOVED )... I would expect fans of the series/manga's to follow suit regardless of whether its relevant on wikipedia or not. You have the freedom and the duty as fans to correct the infractions... and you know HERCULE WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG --Ryanyomomma (talk) 05:23, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Please do not violate WP:COPYRIGHT like that. Again, what fans expect is irrelevant. The question is what name is he called in the Viz Media English release of the manga. No other versions matter. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

so we'll never go by the ORIGINAL manga? What kind of double standards are that? Might as well call Wikipedia CLOSED SOURCE and DICTATORSHIP and you might as well be a machine and not the people who are supposed to have control over these articles. --Ryanyomomma (talk) 06:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)