User talk:Horologium

Welcome to my talk page.

• Please leave new messages at the bottom of the page.
• If you post a message on this page, I'll reply on this page.
• If I've left you a message on your talk page, I will watch it for your response, so please reply there. Responses left here will be moved to your page.
• Please sign and date your comments by inserting four tildes (~~~~) at the end.
• This is not a chat room, and you are not sending me text messages; please use full words and punctuation. I reserve the right to delete comments that contain excessive amounts of Nu English.

Comment from protecting admin (section break) (Talk Greece)

How dare you try to impose logic and reason on the discussion? I, sir, am much offended by this tactic, as nationalist fervor and emotion have stood us in good stead for millennia. We must not muddy the waters of the River Styx by the infusion of objectivity. Harrumph.  ;) •Jim62sch•^dissera! 17:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

PS -- might want to add "not" "neighbor's name do provide editors carte blanche". •Jim62sch•^dissera! 18:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

eep. Fixed that. Thanks for the heads up. Horologium (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Looks like we walked into a viper's nest on that article. If a Canadian province decided to change its name to the Province of New York, or Pennsylvania or Maine, I wouldn't care. Near where I live there's a Dublin, a Berlin and a Vienna, and to the best of my knowledge the Irish, Germans and Austrians have never complained. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 18:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I had no idea what I got myself involved in when I protected that article; it wasn't until I read through the reams of arguments that I realized it was another case of "Hate thy neighbor"™. I actively try to avoid nationalist disputes, because usually both sides are batshit insane. I don't think that is the case here, but it's something I really cannot fathom. Niko's comparison of California to Macedonia doesn't raise any sense of urgency in me, and I lived within 2 miles of the border in San Diego for over 10 years (I used to own a condo in Chula Vista, CA). It sounds a bit ethnocentric, but the US doesn't have the same type of ethnic hatred that engulfs much of Europe. We have a different set of issues altogether. (wry grin) Horologium (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we hae our own incomprehensible problems.

Batshit insane is an apt term: I know I identify to being of German and Norwegian ancestory, but I don't care much about either country, nor would I espouse a pro-either view. As an American, I'm more critical of the US than are many people outside the US, and their criticisms speak more to poor PR on the part of the US gov't and dumb decisions we have made than to anything else. I don't know, maybe I don't have a need to identify with a larger group -- flag-waving turns my stomach -- so maybe I'll never get the point of nationalism. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 20:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Urgh. I knew I had to exit that discussion when my partner pointedly told me that I was paying more attention to a long-simmering ethnic feud than I was to him, and he's not the jealous type. In any case, as I said, Fut.Perf is right; there's no hope there. I have more important things to do than wiki-lawyer with a nationalist. I've nothing against patriotism—I was in the military for 20 years—but that's not the same thing as nationalism. Horologium (talk) 21:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I want to thank you for the time you did take at Greece and for protecting the page. It was like a breath of fresh air to have an otherwise neutral party step in and point out the utter failure of the Greek position on it vis a vis Wikipedia. But, alas, I fear that April 9 will come and with the lifting of protection, the edit warring will begin in earnest. Could I persuade you to extend the protection? If not, I'll understand. Thank you again for your generous input. (Taivo (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

Horologium, I can understand your stance (and your partner's), but please, the one big problem about this process is that reasonable editors are systematically driven away, and only the most batshit insane (us) remain. Please don't be the next. You started out taking administrative action – would you still consider yourself in a position to act in that capacity? We need people to watch this, badly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Horologium does have a valid point re real-life - if only some of the knuckleheads on that page would get lives. I'd walk too, but I seem to like tilting at windmills. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 21:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The sad thing is, I know Niko, and I know he actually does have a life. Hey Niko, go and play with your kids or do something nice with your wife or go buy the other half of the Balkans. Why are you doing this to us? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue that discussion; the three Greek editors are more interested in legal hair-splitting than in actual discussion. I'm not sure if I can be considered a non-interested party at this point, because I certainly stirred up a hornet's nest in just a few hours on the talk page, despite my only edit to the article (or any of its associated pages) being the protection a few days ago. If I see edit warring again when protection expires, I will wade in, but I am entering the final two weeks of my classes for this academic year; I'm going to be too busy with classes to spend a lot of time dealing with nationalistic idiots (yes, I called them nationalistic idiots; see WP:SPADE).

The thing that amuses me is that the only contact I've had with any of the participants in this little drama-fest occurred in September 2007, when I was cleaning up user categories. Fut.Perf contacted me on behalf of NikoSilver about a user category which I had successfully nominated for deletion, inquiring whether it should be recreated. I didn't agree with the arguments which were presented, but as a relatively new user, I was not going to push back against a pair of established users. It seems that relations between Fut.Perf and NikoSilver have deteriorated since that point. :\ Hopefully this can be resolved without breaking out the Banhammer of Trollslaying +5, but I feel it is doubtful at this point. Horologium (talk) 00:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)