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[[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 02:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
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== Redundant discussions ==

In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of '''discussions at length''' which have taken place just in the past couple of months.

'''Race'''
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/race]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race]]

'''Religion'''
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Religon]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Religion]]

'''Citizenship'''
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference]]

'''Full name'''
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name]]
*[[Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II]]

Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion about Obama's birthplace, citizenship, race/ethnicity, etc. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

'''If you want to read about where Obama was born''' and have concerns about it, read [[Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Citizenship facts, rumors and claims]] and in particular [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html this source] which is heavily utilized in the article.
:Where is the archive on Ayers? [[Special:Contributions/68.5.11.175|68.5.11.175]] ([[User talk:68.5.11.175|talk]]) 19:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
::Should we select one from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&ns0=1&redirs=0&search=ayers+prefix%3ATalk%3ABarack+Obama%2FArchive&limit=500&offset=0 this list]?[[User:Justmeherenow|<span style="font-family:Mistral; font-size:small;">''' ↜J''us''t m''e,'' h''er''e, n''o''w''' …</span>]] 19:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
::Any of those should do. I do wonder why the Ayers topic is not included in the "Discussions". Admins getting censor happy?[[User:Miker789|Miker789]] ([[User talk:Miker789|talk]]) 02:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Did you miss the whole WND invasion? They spammed the page and we even got mentioned on Drudge and Fox News for having "whitewashed" the article. [[User:Soxwon|Soxwon]] ([[User talk:Soxwon|talk]]) 02:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

::Where did the discussion on Teleprompters go? I don't believe that was finalized.[[User:Miker789|Miker789]] ([[User talk:Miker789|talk]]) 02:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

== Consensus and Tertiary Sources issue ==

{{hat|Closing discussion. Please see the answer to Question 2 in [[Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ|the FAQ]] --[[User:Bobblehead|Bobblehead]] <sup>[[User talk:Bobblehead|(rants)]]</sup> 18:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)}}
'''So if everyone were to still have a concensus that the world was flat, would that mean it was correct to put in wikipedia, as tertiary sources stated so? Furthermore, it should be people of directly mixed ancestry that should decide what terminology to label themselves, not the general public concensus.'''

We do not use this type of labelling for any other race than black, thanks to the slavery etc, and we already know that the concept of the on-drop rule, where everyone with a trace of black ancestry is labelled black was formed in the 1920s by white supremacists who wanted to keep the white race pure, hence labelled any in-between as black. It's an originally racist concept. Why wouldn't any 'african american' with a trace of one-drop of white ancestry, i.e (usually lighter than dark brown)be called white? It's precisely the same absurd principle. Mixed race people's opinions are continuously ignored in all sections of society. In fact there has been evidence shown from 'reliable sources' such as New Scientist to say that mixed race people are discriminated against mroe n the workplace than black people, and govermnet statitiscs form teh UK show that mixed race people are 50% more likely to be a victim of crime than ANY of the other main ethnic groups in the country, including those that are black. If the point in race labelling was to identify these issues, then surely mixed race people should be classified seprately , because statistics have shown these different trends. If they put 1st African American president, they should also include 44th European-American president of the United States. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.192.129.91|94.192.129.91]] ([[User talk:94.192.129.91|talk]]) 18:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:If you have concerns with how Americans label racial backgrounds, this isn't the venue for it. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red">11</font></b>]]</sup>''' 18:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

'''So what determines whether a consensus is in fact factual information or popular opinion? There are probably numerous sources in other countries that say the American Government is planning on nuking Iran, it doesn't mean it's true. Could this be stated as factual information in Wikipedia?''' The race aspect is just an aspect of this discussion, involving reliability of tertiary media sources. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.192.129.91|94.192.129.91]] ([[User talk:94.192.129.91|talk]]) 18:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{hab}}


I'm sorry but this issue has not been covered in the FAQ section 2 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.192.129.91|94.192.129.91]] ([[User talk:94.192.129.91|talk]]) 18:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This talk page is for discussing how to improve the [[Barack Obama]] biography article. It is not for meta discussions about consensus and sourcing. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 18:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

== Unsuccessful health politics ==

{{hat|Closing discussion. [[User:Brothejr|Brothejr]] ([[User talk:Brothejr|talk]]) 14:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)}}
My proposal for the article:
WHO raised the swine flu alert level 5.
Currently US has the biggest number of proven swine flu cases 91, compared to Mexico's 26 cases. It is indicating that something is wrong in US, one reason can be that we had no health minister.[[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 22:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:: We don't do original research - and how many times do you need to be told that this is a high-level summary article and we wouldn't cover that level of detail here? --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 22:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

::: [http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/29/swine.flu.international/index.html WHO fears swine flu pandemic imminent] for the source. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 22:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
:::"high-level summary article" Uff. Without critics, this is only a big tale about superman. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 22:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

What the WHO says + your take that something is wrong with US response = Synthesis and original research. it's not going in. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 22:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
:If you can't solve a puzzle then don't edit! I'm a thinking man, not a copy paste machine like you. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 22:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I've asked that you are topic banned from those articles, you may wish to comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Multiplyperfect here] before that happens. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 22:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

:Good riddance. We're better off banning him; his only purpose on Wikipedia is to demonize Obama, using the most spurious of 'logic' and the mast fanciful of 'what ifs'. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] ([[User talk:ThuranX|talk]]) 00:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

::As discussed before, it is too early in the evolution of this event to know what will happen, whether Obama's role in it is significant enough to mention here, and exactly what that role is. If you're worried about an epidemic, there is a lot to worry about and a lot of places one can go to worry. There is no hurry here - editing the Obama article is not the biggest priority. Wikipedia, as they say, has no deadline. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 01:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
:::What are you talking about? Obama is the president, responsible for solving the crisis. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 05:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
::::It's not going into the article at this time because the sources have not established it as a signifigant biographical or career event in the life of the president. We will keep an eye on it as news stories emerge. I'm not interested in a debate on the subject - at this point we've all explained it. Your disagreement is noted.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 05:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== U.S. GDP sees worst drop in five decades ==

{{hat|1=Discussion has moved to [[Presidency of Barack Obama]]. <font color="006622">[[User:SheffieldSteel|S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small>]]</font><sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 19:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)}}
I think it would be good for Obama's article: [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S._GDP_sees_worst_drop_in_five_decades U.S. GDP sees worst drop in five decades]
The source can't be better. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 15:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually the source is worthless, we don't use wikis as sources in articles. --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 15:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

In this case see the sources on wikinews. I'm a little surprised, never thought that wiki is blacklisting wiki. This is weird. [[User:Multiplyperfect|Multiplyperfect]] ([[User talk:Multiplyperfect|talk]]) 15:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikis are not considered reliable sources because anyone can edit them and they lack strong editoral oversight - this is why wikipedia itself is not considered a reliable source. I see you learnt nothing from your recent block and it's like the next one is going to be for good. Either you are trolling (and thus shouldn't be here) or are incapable of grasping our policies and/or the purpose of this article (and thus shouldn't be here). --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 15:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

:This material isn't relevant to this article. Multiplyperfect has been warned. <font color="006622">[[User:SheffieldSteel|S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small>]]</font><sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 15:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
{{hab}}
::It is time to stop feeding the troll. Future posts that are not inline with [[WP:TPG]] will be removed. <strong>[[User:BigDunc|<span style="font-family:Ariel Black;color:Green">BigDunc</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:BigDunc|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Orange">Talk</span></sup>]] 21:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Resolved - Troll indef blocked. [[User:Mfield|Mfield]] ([[User_talk:Mfield|Oi!]]) 21:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

== Hospital of birth cited is hearsay, not fact ==

{| class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;"
|-
! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | More birthplace trolling. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 02:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
|-
| style="text-align:center; font-style:italic;" | The following is an archived debate. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>
|-
| style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |

THE STATEMENT BY MARANISS IS PURE HEARSAY. David Maraniss fails to cite the source of the remark about the hospital within his article. The exact location of Obama's birth is still under investigation by World Net Daily (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96202) and a host of other individuals (http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/quo-warranto-legal-brief-part-1/) and organizations (http://www.usjf.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=13).

Barack Obama has hired an expensive team of lawyers to keep his long-form birth certificate from public view. Why? The "Certification of Live Birth", that Obama put on his web site DOES NOT name the hospital, the doctor, the child's weight, etc. Therefore, Maraniss remark is can only be described as hearsay.

''Barack Obama was born at the Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu, Hawaii, United States,'' --
Maraniss, David (August 24, 2008). "Though Obama Had to Leave to Find Himself, It Is Hawaii That Made His Rise Possible". Politics (Washington Post)

[[User:JMDonovan|JMDonovan]] ([[User talk:JMDonovan|talk]]) 00:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

:It has been repeatedly made clear on this talk page that Barack Obama will be recognized as having been born in [[Hawaii]]. I'm not stating an opinion on your views or the views of those who disagree with you. [[User:SMP0328.|SMP0328.]] ([[User talk:SMP0328.|talk]]) 02:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
:I should point out that WND is reliable as a murderer's insistence that he didn't commit a murder when his diary says "[[Life on Mars (TV series)|I killed her. She's been killed. I'm a killer, an ace killer]]". That said, all of this conspiracy theorising is really ultra-neocons going into damage control because, shock horror, a "liberal" is the President (I use quote marks because Obama is still, by necessity in American politics, right of center). Closing. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 02:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
<!-- [[Template:hab]] -->|}
This is the same troll, back again. Same minor syntax errors, same paranoia flavor, same insistence that smear campaign material be integrated. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] ([[User talk:ThuranX|talk]]) 17:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

== Academics ==

Obama is loosely referred to as a 'professor', when he was teaching; however, as the article points out, he was a 'Lecturer' and a 'Senior Lecturer'. He should be referred to as a 'lecturer'. [[User:KenmanLF|KenmanLF]] ([[User talk:KenmanLF|talk]]) 13:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

:We have discussed this before, and it seems like the solution was to keep professor.But as seen in the article, it only mentions Obama as professor at one point and the sentence goes into saying that he was a lecturer and senior lecturer, the reference especially the second one , is titled "Was Barack Obama really a constitutional law professor?" and explains why he is considered as a professor,Now professor also apears in the info box ( i think that is what it is called ) also says he was a professor, even though he never had that title, what is in the info box I could agree might need change, but I will look through archives before that.[[User:Durga Dido|Durga Dido]] ([[User talk:Durga Dido|talk]]) 13:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

::[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/us/politics/03obama.html This article] in the ''New York Times'' offers an additional [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that clearly describes Obama as a professor, in case anyone thinks we need it. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 02:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


:::I saw that too. I don't think an ''en passant'' mention of his (effective) title is particularly strong evidence. The reporter probably didn't ask his precise title. But we have the letter from the law school, which looks like plenty to me. [[User:PhGustaf|PhGustaf]] ([[User talk:PhGustaf|talk]]) 02:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
:::I saw that too. I don't think an ''en passant'' mention of his (effective) title is particularly strong evidence. The reporter probably didn't ask his precise title. But we have the letter from the law school, which looks like plenty to me. [[User:PhGustaf|PhGustaf]] ([[User talk:PhGustaf|talk]]) 02:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:37, 4 May 2009

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