Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Judyth Vary Baker

Judyth Vary Baker

Judyth Vary Baker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This article isn't verifiable using reliable sources. I checked when it was prodded and could only find websites and other self-published material. Briefly, the article presents the biography of Judyth Vary Baker, who it asserts was a young scientist who was Lee Harvey Oswald's lover, when they were both involved in a covert organisation. None of this can be substantiated, and the article further acts as a coatrack for JFK assassination conspiracy theories. Fences&Windows 18:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. —Fences&Windows 18:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Conspiracy theories-related deletion discussions. —Fences&Windows 18:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
• Delete as nonnotable.--AuthorityTam (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment - she does not seem notable as an artist. Can't see why she has been delsorted to Visual arts. What I can say definitively is that she has not ever contributed to anything of note in cancer research: Pubmed [1] has 16 records on a JV Baker, from 1983 on, and this is Jason V. Baker, not her. Enki H. (talk) 03:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
• Keep as she does have a tenuous connection to Lee Harvey Oswald, which in itself makes her notable due to the controversy surrounding the part he is alleged to have played in the JFK assassination; also there are many sites on Internet which discuss her at length. If Wikipedia can have articles on models whose sole claim to notability is having engaged in a bit of horizontal dancing with Mick Jagger, then it should have an article on Judith Vary Baker.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment This argument contradicts the WP:BIO guidline: That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, [...] is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A); [...] However, person A may be included in the related article on B. Nominator has explained that the "many sites on the Internet" appear to fail WP:RS. Enki H. (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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please note J V Baker wrote this material herself, and she has severe eye problems. I have left it as she wrote it, however. Allan Mattsson truehistoryjvbaTruehistoryjvba (talk) 17:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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I hope I am allowed to to defend myself. First, I did not place my own biography here: someone else did. However, it had many errors, so a Dutch friend (Wim Dankbaar) began correcting it, later aided by a Swedish friend (Allan Mattsson). I have been on many radio and TV programs, and decline many invitations.

Secondly, 'notable as an artist' is not the main reason for the listing, though my paintings are occasionally purchased by celebrities. One reason for the listing is because the my life story, an hour-long (with commercials) documentary "The Love Affair" is being viewed worldwide, beginning in November, 2003 when the History Channel aired it five times. In Europe, another documentary featured my story in 2006 on Dutch national television. Other documentaries and CDs exist, some furiously opposed. This is not a 'coatrack' article to defend Oswald. Me & Lee is a new hardcover book about my life (to be released in November, by Trine Day, it is already receiving a sales ranking, as it's being pre-ordered on Amazon.com). Two prior books about me were also published by others. Besides documentaries, CDs, and books directly about me, other writers such as Edward T. Haslam have devoted significant chapters in their own books to the subject.

Other events are upcoming which I am not allowed to divulge, for the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination. If you google my whole name "Judyth Vary Baker" more than 1600 references come up, with a number of attack articles included. Googling "Judyth Baker" brings up many thousands, most about me. I urge you to visit the websites and references for yourself: they are not bogus. If you visit my official website, Judythvarybaker.com, you can view some of the evidence. Of course, if Wikipedia doesn't allow articles about people who have created controversy, though books and documentaries and fierce debates continue about that person, then so be it.

As for my being an artist, writer and poet, though my contributions have been minor, they are of interest to others. I have been unable to exhibit in galleries because my paintings get destroyed by vandalism. I was forced to flee the US and was in political asylum for over ten months. I now have to use other people's computers to keep my own from getting hacked, and my location undisclosed. I wouldn't mind some material being deleted from the article, over which I have personally had little control. The person who suggests that my references are bogus apparently believes you won't check this out for yourself. First this was listed as a 'hoax" --that I did not exist. Now it is being listed as so unimportant that it does not deserve to exist. I was in Marquis Who's Who online, and a hostile person convinced an editor there that I did not exist: the biography was removed. therefore, I thought I should at least state the fact that I do actually exist, and that the book Dr. Mary's Monkey, which has three large chapters about my life and my relationship (controversial though it may be) with Lee Oswald, has gone into several new printings. If you read that book, I believe you would agree that some reference to my name should exist.

If you decide to erase my biography, I will certainly mention it in future interviews and documentaries: Sixty Minutes tried to film me three times (see Sixty Minutes' founder Don Hewitt in his C-Span interview complaining that "the door was slammed in our faces" --I can provide the URL, etc.) -- and I will be happy to answer any questions anyone has. It seems to me that because I'm a controversial figure (stories about me occasionally show up in tabloids) that I am not to be considered an honest person, a good person, or a decent person. This is not self-advertisement: ask yourself why my biography should be erased, but a 28-year old cricket player, James Anderson [2] is included. Since films and programs continue to be made about me as more evidence is found that I'm telling the truth, how long will it be before you would then restore my biography? The 50th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination is just around the corner. If I had said Oswald was guilty, I would have been a very rich woman by now. But because I tell the truth, my biography is to be wiped out? I am making this effort because I don't believe history should be censored. Sorry to take up so much of everyone's time. Here are just a few various references online--from almanacs and encyclopedia references to books and radio/TV... NOT ANY of these were generated by me, no art, literature or poetry references are shown, and these are but a few of those available. Whatever you decide, I do hope you will keep an open mind. Witch hunts, book burnings, and inquisitions don't allow much in the way of self-defense. I'm sorry, again, for taking up so much space and thank my friend Allan Mattsson for retyping this for me. JVB:

List of references collapsed by F&W for space reasons
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
[PDF] Judyth and Lee in New Orleans File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Video interview of Judyth Vary Baker, Title III. (2005) Amsterdam: Dankbaar. 84.Fonzi, G. (1993). The last investigation. New York: Thunder's Mouth Press. ... judythvarybaker.com/.../Judy%20and%20Lee%20in%20New%20Orleans.pdf - Similar by JD Williams - Related articles - All 2 versions Me & Lee: How I Came to Know, Love and Lose Lee Harvey Oswald (Hardcover) by Judyth Vary Baker (Author), Edward T. Haslam (Foreword) List Price: $24.95 Pre-order Price Guarantee. Learn more. This title has not yet been released. You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available. Judyth Vary Baker was Lee Harvey Oswald's girlfriend from april 1963 until his death. .... www.jfkmurdersolved.com/judyth.htm - WordPress www.infibeam.com/.../judyth-vary-baker/.../9780979988677.html - Cached - FTR #644 Interview with Ed Haslam About Dr. Mary's Monkey ... spitfirelist.com/.../ftr-644-interview-with-ed-haslam-about-dr-marys-monkey/ - Cached - SimilarYouTube - The History Channel: Documentary: TMWKK, The Final Chapter, ep.8 The Love Affair, seg.1-5 Nov. 2003, 15 Nov 2006 - ... "The Love Affair" focuses on eye-opening interviews with Judyth Vary Baker, .... Statistics & Data. Loading...39,000 views... www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ry3DrsN9PY What does `Judyth Vary Baker` mean? Judyth Vary Baker - Meaning and definition. ... Statistics. Encyclo has been online since october 15th 2007. It currently contains 3264100 words from 1007 ... www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Judyth%20Vary%20Baker - Cached - Judyth A. Vary Baker - Indopedia, the Indological knowledgebase ..."Judyth Vary Baker and the Exoneration of Lee Harvey Oswald," More... www.indopedia.org/Judyth_A._Vary_Baker.html - Cached - SimilarVary - Ask.com Search Vary is a given name, and may refer to: • Judyth Vary Baker (born 1943), woman who claimed to have an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald • Ralph Vary Chamberlin ... dictionary.reference.com/askhome/browse/Vary - Cached - SimilarStateMaster - Encyclopedia: Judyth A. Vary Baker "The Story of Judyth Vary Baker - The Woman who Cracked the US Govt. Whitewash ...DoeWatch www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Judyth-A.-Vary-Baker - Cached - Anna Lewis's Portfolio : Completely Novel Judyth Vary Baker · www.completelynovel.com/authors/5 - www.ip-adress.com/whois/www.jfk-online.com - SimilarAmazon.com: Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor ...Following a trail of police records, FBI files, cancer statistics, presenting witness Judyth Vary Baker.... ... VIDEO JUDYTH VARY BAKER 2003 Part 1 DivX (30m. ... www.monova.org/.../KENNEDY%20MURDER%20COLLECTION.PART%203%20OF%20%205%09.html - Cached - SimilarScientists - HIV - Monkeys and JFK? 7 Apr 2009 ... FBI files, cancer statistics, and medical journals, .... Edward T. Haslam and Judyth Vary Baker are modern American heros, ... Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret ... Following a trail of police records, FBI files, cancer statistics, ... Haslam's primary witness, Judyth Vary Baker, proves beyond a doubt that all of this ... allnurses.com/nursingbooks/NsgStudent-14074-0977795306.html - Similar What does `Judy Baker` mean? Mathematics and statistics. Meteorology and astronomy ... Judyth Vary Baker `Judyth Anne Vary Baker`, née `Judyth Anne Vary` (born May 15, 1943)worked with ... www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Judy%20Baker vary with - Ask.com Search Vary is a given name, and may refer to: Judyth Vary Baker (born 1943), woman who claimed to have an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald Ralph Vary Chamberlin ... dictionary.reference.com/browse/vary%20with - Cached - Similar The Secret Epidemic - Literature - Portal Language Services Haslam's primary witness, Judyth Vary Baker.... According to the CDC's own statistics, the number one transmission for ... portallanguageservices.com/shop/product/The-Secret.../Literature/ - Similar The Final Chapter ep.2, The Love Affair, Pt.5-5 - LiveVideo.com with Judyth Vary Baker, a cancer-research specialist who was having .... Following a trail of police records, FBI files, cancer statistics, ... www.livevideo.com/video/.../the-final-chapter-ep-2-the-lo.aspx - Similar History Channel Sell Out, The Guilty Men/LBJ in JFK: A Presidency ...The Love Affair Recent statistics show that 85% of Americans DISCOUNT the Warren ..... like "The Love Affair" with Judyth Vary Baker, who makes a credible case for having ... boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100005482... - Similar Lee Oswald planeaba refugiarse en Mérida | Florecita Yucateca - [ Translate this page ] 28 Feb 2006 ... “El pensaba que luego del atentado quedaría libre y podría reunirse conmigo en Mérida para casarnos”, dice Judyth Vary Baker en un ... www.florecitayucateca.com/.../lee-oswald-planeaba-refugiarse-en-merida/ - Cached - Similar Did she have an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald? | HeraldTribune.com ... 22 Nov 2008 ... Judyth Vary Baker will always love Lee Harvey Oswald, the accused assassin of President John F. Kennedy and the man she had an affair with ... www.heraldtribune.com/article/20081122/ARTICLE/811220362 - Similar http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/book/may15.html Wilson's Almanac: birthday, May 15, 1943: Judyth Vary Baker... (Investigated by crime researcher Peter DeVries, he then featured her in his documentary...) Peter R. De Vries Judyth Baker DVD ... his own crime show on Dutch TV since 1996 ... solving cases that have run cold with the Dutch police. ... www.jfkmurdersolved.com/vries.htm - Cached - Similar PDF] F09 Small Press Frontlist:Layout 1.qxd File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML “They thought they could frighten Judyth Vary Baker into silence. ... trail that led from London and Amsterdam overland ... www.ipgbook.com/catalogs/F09/F09SmallPress.pdf - Similar June 2009 De vermeende Kennedy-moordenaar en zijn laatste minnares: «Een ... - [ Translate this page ] Judyth Vary Baker, naar eigen zeggen de laatste minnares van de vermeende ..... van het nieuwe museum Hermitage Amsterdam, en dat is volkomen terecht. ... www.groene.nl/.../De_vermeende_Kennedy-moordenaar_en_zijn_laatste_minnares - Cached - Similar Book 1 - The True Story of the Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy, by His Lover, Judyth Vary Baker published by Harrison E. Livingstone 9789703704316 970370431X ... www2.loot.co.za/index/html/index859.html - Cached - Similar "Jag var Oswalds flickvän" - Dalarna - Dalarnas Tidningar - [ Translate this page ] 22 nov 2007 ... Judyth Vary Baker är amerikansk medborgare. Hon har sökt politisk asyl i Sverige men fått avslag. "Jag är det sista levande vittnen om vad ... www.dt.se/nyheter/dalarna/article253753.ece - Cached - Similar [PDF] Sida 1 (4) "LANSRXTTENX — — ~TH>M " Máhir- - - STOCKHOLMS LAN 2008 ... - File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Judyth Vary Baker överklagar beslutet och yrkar att hon skall beviljas up- .... Du reste in i Sverige den 11 September 2007 och yrkade om m**^ ... Download Summer of 2007 Movie video - Videos search engine ... It is part of the 4 hour DVD on Judyth Vary Baker, who was the girl friend of Lee .... It is an account of government lies, cover-up, black ops, deception, ... www.bollywoodsargam.com/download_video.php?... - Cached - Similar Covert History "The history of the great events of this world are scarcely more than the history of crime. ... Judyth Vary Baker's upcoming book can be pre-ordered here. ... coverthistory.blogspot.com/.../judyth-vary-bakers-upcoming-book-can-be.html - Cached - Similar Timeline results for judyth vary baker history1963 Judyth Vary Baker Lee Harvey Oswald's Mistress Judyth Vary Baker From time to time, if he had an argument with Marina , he would simply go to my ... ahivfree.alexanderstreet.com 2002 4. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch post, November 14, 2002. 5. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the ... www.jfk-online.com www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-6-2004-53814.asp - Cached - SimilarInterview with History: The JFK Assassination - Google Books Result by Pamela J. Ray, James E. Files - 2007 - History - 464 pages LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND JUDYTH VARY BAKER Lee Harvey Oswald's mistress, ... 2003 books.google.com/books?isbn=142595992X... AAAAAA DOEWatch, Welcome to The Environmentalist Newsletters ... JFK, Judyth Vary Baker, Castro-cancer, Dallas, Oak Ridge nuclear accidents. ..... The Anti-Christ and the A-Bomb-->History of Religion Orientation on ... www.doewatch.com/ - Cached - Similar Black Op Radio 317 Fletcher Prouty World History 316 Lisa Pease The Zenith Secret .... 171 Judyth Vary Baker Lee Oswald May 13 170 John Judge Washington Update May 6 ... www.blackopradio.com/products.html - Cached - Similar 图片集_Judyth Vary Baker - [ Translate this page ] Judyth Vary Baker的海报- 第0页. 图片网址; 本地图片上传. 输入网址: (输入图片的网址) ... 推荐Judyth Vary Baker给网友. 看的人越多越流畅，赶快推荐给好友 ... bk.pps.tv/ct101591166/image/ - Similar vary synonym | Thesaurus.com Synonyms for vary at Thesaurus.com with free online thesaurus, antonyms, and definitions. ... Vary inversely · Judyth vary baker · Karlovy vary czech . ... thesaurus.reference.com/browse/vary - Cached - Similar Meria With Ed Haslam - Dr. Mary's Monkey at Meria...June 2009 Judith Vary Baker - Oswalds girlfriend ... meria.net/2009/.../meria-with-ed-haslam-dr-marys-monkey/ - Cached - Similar Judyth Vary Baker in History Alive in History Channel Judyth Vary Baker: I have known Judy for years. I have seen her evidence. I have met and talked with others that believe her. boards.history.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300002070... - Cached - Similar

---Thank you for reading this.

A. M. truehistoryjvbaTruehistoryjvba (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for posting, but most of those sources are not of any use to us. We need reliable sources, not web forums, web pages, self-published books or the like. Fences&Windows 21:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have proofread JVB's comments for clarity, as they were difficult to read, and I have placed the references in a drop-down box. Fences&Windows 22:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep - (however ...!). Apparently the History Channel aired an episode featuring Ms. Baker in November 2003 [3]. This is enough to make her notable as per WP:Bio (significant coverage). Note that this has nothing to do with the veracity of the claims in the article. Even if this were a hoax, at that point it would be a notable hoax. However, the article still needs to fulfill WP:V and it does not for the most part, since the sources it uses for the most part do not fulfill WP:RS. There is however a detailed discussion of the Ms. Baker's claims on a Web page [4], hosted within the Web site of Marquette University, and authored by John C. Macadams a faculty member of the Department of Political Sciences who specializes in American History. By the looks of it, this qualifies as a reliable source as described in WP:RS: it is published (on the Web), by a scholar in the field (a third-party source), and hosted by an accredited academic institution. That article spells out in detail that practically none of the claims can be substantiated. I find it remarkable that this essay has not been used by the editors of the article, but it seems like a comprehensive, accessible source that could be used and cited in a complete rewrite of the article. Perhaps someone from WP:WikiProject History could kindly take this on. Enki H. (talk) 00:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• Enki H., thanks. Keep but heavily edit might be the right outcome, but we have to do it without breaking BLP rules. With the History Channel episode - which you can see on YouTube - we have significant coverage, also an article in the Herald Tribune.[5] We need to remove all the poor sources, and we can't use Baker's website or interviews as references to support facts other than non-controversial info about herself. I've also now found two more articles: [6][7]. If we are to use McAdam's detailed analysis of Baker's account, we need to have it cleared by the reliable sources noticeboard, and probably the BLP noticeboard. Fences&Windows 01:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a plan. The website may be as reliable is it will get - it is unlikely that anything peer-reviewed would be published on a fringe- and conspiracy topic, journals are usually reluctant to touch such topics; it's a lose-lose situation in the academic world since any amount of attention implicitly validates the fringe. Are you going to take it to WP:RSN? If not, I could - but American history is really not my expertise :-) Enki H. (talk) 04:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

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Keep. I attempt comment for Baker. (1)The books "Dr. Mary's Monkey" and "Me & Lee" are NOT self-published books. (2) The History Channel documentary "The Love Affair" is, you agree, a suitable reference. (3) John McAdams' 200 page website attacks Baker, but he and his listed informants never met or interviewed Baker at any time these past ten years. (4) Several large websites support Baker and unmask McAdams' mis-statements and errors, concerning his 'research', written by researchers who have written books about the JFK assassination (McAdams never did), including JFKMurdersolved.com and Edward T. Haslam's author website.(5)The Sarasota Herald Tribune front page article 2008 is not the only recent newspaper article: example: another front-page article in a big paper was The Bradenton Herald's 2003 article; dozens of newspaper and mazine articles overseas can be cited, including in my own country (6) you mention remove all personal websites: is this done with all other living persons? (7) there still remain radio, TV, DVD, CD, documentary trailers, witness interviews, interviews with authors who have written about her, incl. independent websites of quality that provide access online to her life story (8) Harrison Livingstone's 700 page book was not published by Baker. (9) Pam Ray's two self-published books were not published by Baker. (10) Livingstone's book mentioning Baker prominently was not self-published. (11) McAdams quotes from "Deadly Alliance" stolen from Baker in Holland and published online, with alterations. (12) Baker ran her own art gallery in The Netherlands and qualifies as an artist in describing her. QUESTION: who first removed Baker from 'living persons'? I fixed that. Immediately the person then said Baker was 'hoax." I deleted that. She is a living person and controversial. Who then brought up again for 'deletion' under a new excuse, that Baker's references were not real? Now it is admitted 'some' are worthwhile, with untrue comment making it seem all books referenced were 'self-published.' Who is continuing this string of false statements? I have been contributing, along with Baker, to many Wikipedia articles (she is better than me in English, I have better eyesight). We will resign if injustice continues in Wikipedia, and will support the academic community's verdict about Wikipedia instead of striving to make Wikipdia a better and more reliable source. A biography that has stood since 2003 should not be deleted simply because the individual is controversial and somebody here continues a vendetta. I say no more. Allan Mattsson, Stockholm, Sweden.truehistoryjvbaTruehistoryjvba (talk) 11:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)