Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Frei Hans

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 14:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 08:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC).

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• Frei Hans (talk · contribs · logs)

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Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Only users who certify this request should edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Cause of concern

User repeatedly accuses other editors of sockpuppetry and vandalism inappropriately or in inappropriate venues:

1. 8 June 2009
2. 8 June 2009
3. 10 June 2009
4. 15 June 2009
5. 18 June 2009
6. 21 June 2009
7. 4 July 2009
8. 6 July 2009 - Flippant accusation of sockpuppetry with no supporting evidence given
9. 6 JulyAdded two more users to his sockpuppet investigation.
10. 6 JulyAdded another user to his sockpuppet investigation.
11. 6 JulyAdded three more users to sockpuppet investigation.
12. 6 JulyAdded one more user to sockpuppet investigation.
13. 6 JulyAdded one more user to sockpuppet investigation.

Refuses to accept community consensus regarding deletion processes:

1. Refusal to acknowledge unanimous support for deletion of File:Unwired head.jpg at FFD. Launched flippant deletion review, filled with accusations of malpractice
2. 5 July 2009 - States belief that admin malpractice and "vandalism" resulted in deletion of Telepathy and war despite overwhelming support for deletion at AFD

   6 July 2009 - repeated denial of consensus

3. 6 July 2009: Refusal to accept redirect of ASIO File despite AFD

Applicable policies and guidelines

1. Assume good faith
2. Definition of consensus
3. Deletion policy
4. Definition of vandalism
5. Correct process for reporting suspected sockpuppets

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

I would ask that Frei Hans does the following:

1. Accept the definition of vandalism given at WP:VAND, and understand that content disputes and bold edits are explicitly not considered vandalism.
2. Agree not to accuse other editors of vandalism unless their conduct is explicitly defined as such at WP:VAND
3. Agree to follow the proper dispute resolution process if he disagrees with another editor
4. Agree to assume good faith from other editors
5. Agree to only make accusations of sockpuppetry at an appropriate venue, such as WP:SSP
6. Accept that there was an overwhelming consensus to delete Telepathy and war and File:Unwired head.jpg and to redirect ASIO File
7. Read the deletion policy and the criteria for speedy deletion and agree not to recreate deleted content without addressing the causes of its deletion

Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute

1. 8 June 2009 by Verbal - Explained definition of vandalism
2. 8 June 2009 by Verbal - Advised about WP:AGF
3. 9 June 2009 by Sifaka - Explained dispute resolution
4. 10 June 2009 by Verbal
5. 14 June 2009 by me
6. 19 June - Wikiquette alert filed

   19 June - User advised about alert

7. 19 June - Advised about conflating vandalism with edits the user doesn't like and licensing requirements.
8. 6 July - Lots of good advice by User:Bwilkins
9. 6 July - Advised by User:LessHeard vanU about deletion review and inappropriate comments
10. 6 July - Warning about flippant accusations at WQA
11. 6 July - Warning and advice about Sockpuppetry accusations
12. 6 July - advised to back off by User:Mangoe
13. 6 July - asked to re-read polices by User:Abce2

Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)

1. Advice read by Frei Hans on 10 June 2009 - disputed behaviour continued after this date
2. Advice read by Frei Hans on 15 June 2009 - disputed behaviour continued after this date
3. 6 July 2009 - Statement by Frei Hans refuting advice about deletion process
4. 6 July 2009 - Statement by Frei Hans refuting advice from Bwilkins
5. 21 June 2009 - User refuses to engage in discussion at WP:WQA
6. 6 July 2009 - Continued flippant WQA despite warning
7. 6 July - sockpuppetry investigation request filed claiming that User:Verbal, User:A Man In Black, and User:Papa November are the same person
8. 6 July 2009 - User:Mangoe and User:Abce2 added to the sockpuppetry case

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute.

1. Papa November (talk) 14:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2. Mangoe (talk) 17:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
3. Abce2|Free LemonadeOnly 25 cents!(Sign here) 17:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
4. Verbal chat 17:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
5. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

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Additional users endorsing this cause for concern.

1.  pablo_hablo. 16:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2. LuckyLouie (talk) 16:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
3. Dougweller (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
4. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
5. lifebaka++ 18:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
6. MuZemike 20:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions

Any users may post questions in this section.  Answers should be reserved for those certifying the dispute.

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Response

{This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed.  Users not named in the request or certifying the request should post under Additional views below.}

Response to concerns

{Add summary here.}

Applicable policies and guidelines

List the policies and guidelines that apply to the response.

Questions

Any users may post questions in this section.  Answers should be reserved for the user named in the dispute.

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A.

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Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

View by Hans Adler, who is not sure how involved he is

Frei Hans seems to be acting in good faith. He really seems to think that there is a conspiracy to delete his articles. This is exactly the reaction one would expect in good faith from an editor who writes things like this. I believe there are conditions that make patients much more prone to jump to conclusions and believe that unrelated things must be related, and as far as I know they typically cause this kind of behaviour. Unless Frei Hans can find and accept a mentor, per WP:THERAPY banning him is probably our only long-term option.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Hans Adler 15:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2. Dougweller (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC) This [1] concerns me. Before that, I put a request on his talk page advising him to respond here, instead he filed this SPI plus a couple of other edits.
3. Abce2|Free LemonadeOnly 25 cents!(Sign here) 16:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
4. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
5. Verbal chat 17:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
6. LuckyLouie (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
7. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive197#User:Chuck Marean, which I believe is similar to this case. MuZemike 20:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
8. Endorse final sentence, not paid enough to diagnose.  pablo_hablo. 21:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
9. Jives with my view on this situation (without the speculation). - 2/0 (cont.) 23:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
10. Endorse. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

View by Crohnie, uninvolved other than comment of deletion review

I think User:Frei Hans needs to read or reread a lot of policies because he definitely lacks understanding about WP:Vandal, WP:SOCK, WP:CIVIL, WP:BATTLE and a host of other core policies. Maybe a mentor would be a good way to go. Before I commented on the deletion review I read as many links and pages I could find to get a rounded and fair idea about what was happening between editors and the article itself. The deletion of the article and the picture had overwhelming support to be deleted. Unfortunately User:Frei Hans felt there was some kind of conspiracy going on which is unfortunate. I have worked and seen User:Verbal around in the project but I have had no contact other than the notice about this report with the other editor User: Papa November. When I saw accusations of vandalism, sock puppetry and so forth I have to admit my surprise. When I followed the links though I never saw any difs to prove these allegations so I feel the editor Frei Hans should apologize for saying things in the heat of the moment. I think that striking or deleting the allegations of misbehavior that he accused other editors of and maybe an apology would go a long way at mending feeling and stop this process from going forward. I also recommend to Frei Hans to see if he can find an editor he is comfortable with to mentor him. I would volunteer myself but I would only be available until the beginning of the month do to real life. To sum up, I feel that the following should be done in no specific order; 1) striking and/or deleting accusations of misbehavior without proof, 2) apologies if heartfelt for saying things in the heat of the moment, 3) ask for a mentor to help understand policies better. I really think that this editor shows he has the ability and the want to be a good editor here. He just has to realize that policies are here for a reason and everyone needs to be able to work and collaborate together in a collegial manner . I hope I am being clear on what I am saying, thanks for listening.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2. Abce2|Free LemonadeOnly 25 cents!(Sign here) 17:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Right now he's acting first and saying that he's right later.
3. Papa November (talk) 17:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
4. Verbal chat 17:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
5. MuZemike 20:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
6.  pablo_hablo. 21:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
7. Endorse 1, 2, and 3. - 2/0 (cont.) 23:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
8. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

View by MuZemike

This DRV rationale is completely unacceptable. In any deletion discussion, users need to address the opposition's arguments and not their character or past merits. The only time that the latter should ever be brought up is in the case that a user is banned, and it has been discovered that said user's contributions were in violation of that ban. This was not the case. Such ad hominem arguments go against the constructive and welcoming decorum especially needed in deletion discussions. MuZemike 20:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. MuZemike 20:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2.  pablo_hablo. 21:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
3. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

View by Pablomismo, involved to the extent of the AfD and DRV for Telepathy and War

Frei Hans does not accept consensus, displays ownership over articles he edits and will try any and all avenues to gather support for the reversal of the deletions of File:Unwired head.jpg (which he created) and Telepathy and war (which he created the original off-topic and irrelevantly-referenced version of.

This may just be not getting the point, or it may be a wilful refusal to get the point; which are slighly different things. I do not know his actions are due to his misunderstanding of WP policies and guidelines, or if he is simply a disruptive POV-pushing edit-warrior. Could be either.

However, when this is taken in tandem with the accusations he dishes out to editors who disagree with him; repeatedly accusing users including (but not limited to) Verbal and Papa November of vandalism, hinting at sockpuppetry [2], [3], followed by explicit accusations of sockpuppetry and geneeral refusal to accept advice when offered it becomes difficult to see him as simply a misguided but good-faith editor.

Users who endorse this summary:

1.  pablo_hablo. 21:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by -- Banjeboi

{Frei Hans can have a place here but is certainly stepping in the wrong direction. Generally Wikipedians help one another and generally have better things to do than sweep together a WP:Cabal to remove encyclopedic content. While I don't necessarily agree with teh AfD outcome - as I felt there was some good content in the article itself - I do agree that usually consensus gets it right. The action to take here was userfying and taking a slow path to see what information could be useful elsewhere. The image issues are unique in copyright but I can empathize with the feelings Frei Hans may hold that they were being picked on - they weren't. Frei Hans should likely apologize in a blanket statement on their talkpage for making accusations and generally disrupting things in the heat of passion. They should take a breather and look at the much bigger picture here that Wikipedia is behind the ball - that is we don't lead, we follow - let relaible sources make the novel connections and statements and find NPOV ways of presenting them if needed. Unitl then it may may sense to do some basic maintenance work and develop more trust in their skills of editing and OR judgement. A mentor may also help in this situation but the bad vibes do need to be addressed.}

Users who endorse this summary:

1. -- Banjeboi 02:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed solutions

This section is for all users to propose solutions to resolve this dispute.  This section is not a vote and resolutions are not binding except as agreed to by involved parties.  

Disengage and contemplate

1) This proposal essentially suggests that all parties disengage from the various disputes and contemplate their own actions. Frei Hans should agree that there is not a conspiracy to delete his articles or to silence him, should accept that his knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines may have let him down in the past, and should undertake to seek counselling or advice when engaged in controversial actions or content disputes (for example, before filing suspected sockpuppet or deletion review cases). For their part, Verbal, AManInBlack, Mangoe, Abce2, and LuckyLouie should agree that they will not pursue, harass, bait, or hound Frei Hans in any way - that they will not, for example, communicate with one another regarding Frei Hans's contributions or conduct - and additionally should ask themselves whether as individuals or together they could have handled this situation better.

suggested by SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I have no problem with this but it appears to be moot, as the subject of the complaint is not responding and has taken to responding to any interaction by adding people to the SPI complaint. Indeed, the root of the problem is that he cannot bring himself to walk away from the conflict. I just "lost" an AFD myself, so I can understand some of his sentiments. Mangoe (talk) 18:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I should explain that the list of names above was what I saw when I went to the above-listed SPI case. I had no idea at the time that names were continuing to be added. Probably best if I don't comment further, as I've blocked this user temporarily. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK

I'll stop beating my wife while I'm at it! :) Verbal chat 19:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by others:

• Sheffield Steel - you could remove A Man in Black from this as he has as far as I can see, no interaction[4] save for closing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Telepathy and war, hasn't edited since 15 June, and seems unlikely to want to "pursue, harass, bait, or hound" anyone any time soon.  pablo_hablo. 21:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
• I suggest this be stricken or radically reworded as it is normal and expected that users who are seeking to protect the encyclopedia will exchange information about the actions of a disruptive user. They are not doing anything wrong. It is the disruptive user who has the problem. One should AGF toward those who are protecting Wikipedia, and the above doesn't do that. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

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Reminder to use the talk page for discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.