Talk:Hardcore punk

New York hardcore and "influence on other genres"

There should be a topic about New York Hardcore.

I added a paragraph to the "Influence on other genres" section discussing post-hardcore. Please critique. Ilikeartrock 01:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

New York is not mentioned enough. New York has been the center of hardcore since 1985. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Hip-hop?

How are hip-hop elements common in metalcore (as said in the 1990s section)? Remember, metalcore isnt nu metal here. Thrash metal and melodeath elements are in metalcore much more. So please dont add that hip-hop elements are in metalcore. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 00:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• Hip-hop and rap influences are ALL OVER the current metalcore scene. Emmure, for instance, uses hip-hop rhythms in their breakdowns. Not to mention the fashion crossover in the scene, & deathcore bands wearing gold and platinum grills on tour.

Then take it to the "deathcore" page. This article is about hardcore punk, not every single offshoot ever inspired by it in the history of modern music. And the only hip-hop influence in 'metalcore' is their appropriation of baggy pants and baseball caps fashion (maybe that's even moreso a 'nu metal' fashion). --Tim010987 (talk) 20:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Thses fashions have been with skater punks for years. I can remember dressing in these fashions back in the mid 80's. Trainer labels like Vans & Airwalk, baggies or cut offs for leg wear and baseball caps with bandanas on our heads. It was the modern hardcore punk fashion. Nothing to do with hip hop. It was just the fashions at the time. It was primarily an urban origination fashion style from LA & NY. Hip Hop likewise got it fashions from the same sources. If anything hiphop got some of it fashion tips from skater brands. In NY there was also Vision streetwear that was a big skater brand at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 07:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge

I merged the funkcore article into the funk rock article. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 01:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sludge metal

Shouldn't sludge metal be mentioned in this article ? Gothbag (talk) 02:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.217.229 (talk) 06:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Question

Why does this article have almost nothing to do with what Hardcore Punk is? Ive read through it and i gleamed plenty about its history, but nothing about what Hardcore Punk is musicially.

I came to Wikipedia looking for that information. IM dissapointed to find that, once again, Wikipedia has let me down.

Can someone please add some information usefull to the article such as what it is rather than splitting hairs over who did what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.234.255 (talk) 05:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is helpful if your familiar with a majority of the bands and genres rediscussed through the explanation of hardcore's history. I'm surprised something as big as hardcore punk wouldn't have gotten a "this article includes jargon" by now, a more thorough explanation of all the aspects of this article is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.140.214 (talk) 05:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There is much more here about non-hardcore bands (Melvins, Extreme Noise Terror) than actual hardcore bands. Music made after 1984 is almost non-existent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Question 2

What about Warzone, Cro-mags, and maybe Madball?

hXc

Someone needs to fix the article so that when someone searches "hXc", "Hardcore Punk" doesn't come up. hXc does NOT mean Hardcore Punk. It just means "Hardcore", and is often accosiated metalcore bands, like As I Lay Dying, Suicide Silence, etc.

If you don't change it, we at least need to add something about how it's changed over the years. And how the term "hXc" is no longer associated with Hardcore punk much anymore.

I would agree that there is a definite difference between "hardcore" and "hardcore punk." Dead Kennedys do NOT sound much like, say, Bane. However I don't think "Hardcore" is the same thing as Metalcore, hence the "metal" prefix. This article hardly even mentions New York Hardcore.

I think the term "Hardcore Punk" definitely merits its own article, but the distinction should me made between it and "hardcore." I would prefer to see the term "hardcore" have its own article as well. Emceelane (talk) 04:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hardcore is short for Hadcore punk. Bands like I Lay Dying are Metalcore. By the way Hardcore is a more straightforward form of punk. In this way, it was much more purist punk and it didn't include "a wide range of sounds" (as the article states) in comparison to the first wave of punk and new wave.

Seminal Brazilian Hardcore punk

I feel the lack of mention to the seminal Brazilian scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.56.30.10 (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The only band I know of from Brazil is Sepultura. If you think that this page is lacking specific information on the scene, then you might be the best one to add it, but don't forget to add references. hellboy (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ratos de Porão (Portuguese for "Basement Rats") but they are more crossover thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 07:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Emo

Er, why does it say SDRE is the first emo band? I'd say that Moss Icon is; SDRE was the first one to have the indie emo style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk • contribs) 6:34, 11 May 2008

• Hm. That statement is given a source, but I personally think that the statement is BS. SDRE started out years after bands like Rites of Spring and Moss Icon did. At the very least, SDRE was the first emo band to gain recognition outside underground music circles. TheLetterM (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This page

Has some serious problems. Its soley focused on 'the little things'. New York Hardcore barely gets a mention here. Instead it seems to be obsessed with tiny influences of the genre, near unknown bands and the offshoots that don't really link much. I mean, CBGBs was the cradle of hardcore punk, along with bands touring from washington and NewYork, and the only real mentions there are Black Flag, Bad Brains and Minor Threat. I'd view Agnostic Front as having much prominance (Black Flag can't be considered 'Hardcore' until 81 when Rollins started lead vocals.). Also, this is just about all based on the sources of one journalist. Try excanding that. 86.145.189.29 (talk) 15:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this page needs a revamp badly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.209.21 (talk) 09:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hatebreed and Sick Of It All

arguably the most successful hardcore punk bands. nothing much about them in this article. sort it out --Murkle (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If you feel this way then feel free to make a contribution, but I think there are plenty who would argue that Hatebreed are not really a hardcore punk band. hellboy (talk) 23:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's right Hatebreed is not Hardcore and Sick Of It All only played Hardcore on their first album.

Bullshit - they are two of the biggest hardcore bands ever.

NEW SCHOOL HARDCORE?

bands like comeback kid, have heart, verse, bane, american nightmare, etc. aren't mentioned on this page? surely bands that play this music has played a part it making what hardcore is today? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himynameisnick (talk • contribs) 02:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

What about John Peel's Peel Sessions?

What about Radio One DJ John Peel's Peel Sessions?

He was famous for promoting an underground hardcore punk music on the leading respectable national radio. Groups like Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, Intense Degree, Doom, Dr and the Crippens etc were all featured on his peel sessions Metalosaurus (talk) 19:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Those are all metal bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

All those bands are now considered metal in some sense however at the time they came out there were no such easy distinctions. An early incarnation of Napalm Death featured on Crass records Bullshit Detector for example and their sound was definitely not metal. Napalm Death at least were very much Punk in their attitude and their audiences reflected this. Personally I think Metalosaurus is definitely right in that there was a strong relationship between the UK hardcore (UK82 for you Americans?) and the thrash/crust scenes. To ignore this would be to omit a member of the hardcore family ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.134.163.83 (talk) 12:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

-core genres are forms of hardcore punk like genres ending in metal are forms of heavy metal.

Any musics ending in -core are all types or evolutions of hardcore punk the same way musics ending in metal are types or evolutions of Heavy Metal. When punk rock rose to fame and died into post-punk new-wave / dark-wave rock etc it was the hardcore punk movement that was born and revived punk into new realms. It seems that there is a new fad of naive metal fans who think they have stumbled on a new word and are inventing uses of -core genres wrongly into metal. It like calling horror punk as horror metal. Everyone knows that musics ending in metal are forms of heavy metal and get the metal ending from Heavy Metal the same way musics ending in -core get the core ending from Hardcore.

It is simple to tell metal and punk apart as metal is played technically challenging with lead breaks and timing etc of a proffessional high quality manner (or an attempt at least) where as punk is deliberately played to an un-proffessional manner (based mostly on three-cords). There is a good interview from 1989 made by the BBC titled "thrashed to death" where Tom Araya from the thrash metal group Slayer rightfully says - "anything much faster or more overboard than reign in blood makes no sense and crosses the line between metal & punk". http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WcjD9n4pafs&feature=related (starts about 2.45 into clip and finishes statement about 3.45) This is not meant disrespectfully as Tom loves and was influenced by punk but what he is referring to is that punk is not supposed to be structured like metal. Punk was started by amateur garage bands.

The original true meaning of the word Punk is 'dead wood (as was used to start fires)'. In other words it means no good or of poor quality. It was how the first punk rock bands got this name. When thrash metal (which although greatly influenced by the energy and sound of punk, it remained complex and structured metal) met hardcore punk it used to be called "crossover" and not thrashcore, metalcore, sludgecore etc etc. The slightest little tweek in sound and hey some young five minute fan is trying to call it a new genre. I guess to impress thes other silly little mates with great knowledge of music styles. I'm sorry but knowing thousands of silly genre names doesn't make you a bigger fan or show greater appreciation of the music

• No, though what you say has merit its not all that simple. Punk did start as sloppier wile medal started more technically challenging but that was thirty years ago. Since then the lines have been blurred, there are crossovers and technically challenging punk bands as well as sloppier metal musicians. Its also to be noted that hardcore was an adjective before it was a form of music and its still used as an adjective today, so lots of genres were named from that. Genres like Slowcore and Sadcore have essentially no connection to hardcore even with the suffix. Metalcore is a form of metal, not hardcore though it incorporates aspects of the later. Also I'm almost sure that the early punks did not know the original meaning of the word. They just knew it was an insult and took the name from there. I'm sure the people who coined the geek squad don't know the original meaning of geek either. Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats my point. Like Heavy Metal spanned into Speed "Metal", Power "Metal", "Symphonic "Metal", Thrash "Metal", Death "Metal" etc etc Hardcore spanned into "-core" genres (speed metal etc are all styles / sub genres of heavy metal). NWOBHM was influenced greatly by the energy of Punk at the time and thrash metal was greatly influenced from Hardcore at the time. Neither were a crossover / fusion genre as both NWOBHM & thrash remained metal structurly. When Napalm Death first surfaced they were alongside groups like Extreme Noise Terror, Dr & the Crippens & Intense Degree and often got cover together on Radio DJ John Peel's "Peel sessions". It was all genred as Hardcore back then. They were all Hardcore bands who admitted to having Heavy Metal influences the same way thrash bands admitted to having punk influences. I remember as I used to have the records and listen to the shows etc. Back then I can remember many unbrella terms such as Skatecore (Intense Degree). Crustcore - later giving rise to Grindcore via Napalm Death, rapcore (a few early hardcore acts such as Suicidal Tendencies who used raps as vocal over hardcore punk music. I remember well as I was massively into the skate scene and these terms were majorly connected. Thrasher magazine who often give a way free records of such artists. I was also greatly into the metal scene so I saw both sides of the fan base. Many metal fans throught groups such as Napalm Death were metal and when Napalm Death used the term "grindcore" in interviews and groups like Biohazard and Pantera spoke about having massive hardcore influences the metal fans started using the term -core as a metal ending. Its like punks who know nothing about metal who hear some metal groups and mistake them as punk and start calling punk genres as - metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

To add to this all -core genres were not seperate genres but just variants of Hardcore. i.e. skatecore was still hardcore it just appealled to skaters and sang lyrics about skating i.e. the song 'Skate bored'. Rapcore was still hardcore it just chanted in a rap style street lyric. i.e. Suicidal Tendencies song 'Join the Army'. Suicidal Tendencies were Hardcore / Crossover but also skatecore & rapcore (who later went thrash metal for a few albums). crustcore was hardcore that appealled to crusties - dreadlocked scruffy squatter anarcho-punks. Emocore were originally hardcore groups and Grindcore was started by Napalm Death who were originally from a hardcore scene inspired by metal (like crustcore) and not a metal scene inspired by punk.

Links

All of the links on this page seem to fit under the WP:LINKSTOAVOID category. Unless there's any major objections, I will remove them all in a few days time. hellboy (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

As there were no objections, links were removed hellboy (talk) 22:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Dude I hope you werent born in 1975 and Really are from Australia. Thats OBVIOUSLY why You Have no CLUE. If your From The US you still have no clue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.165.107 (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The only thing I don't have a clue about is what you think I don't have a clue about? hellboy (talk) 09:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverting to "The Original"

C'mon guys, all this is going to result in is the article being locked or something. To the person reverting back to the original, can you please justify why you are doing this, so we can move forward. hellboy (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hogan's Heroes

ALSO ......HOGAN'S HEROES HAD REAL METAL IN IT Way Before Many mentioned acts, SORRY GUYS that is a FACT. WHAT IS IT THE HH WIKI HAS TO BE WRITTEN TO GET CREDIT, THATS FUNNY BEING OUT 5 YEARS BEFORE , WITH REAL METAL, LEADS, WHAMMY BAR, CRY-BABY PEDAL, METAL SOUND AS FAR BACK AS 1985, History Is HISTORY not His-Story Go To The myspace ect. or If anyone "editing" Is an ADULT YOU Dont need to be reminded, Heres the myspace, www.myspace.com/officialhogansheroes by summer the wiki will be done , I already have a Wiki edit page set up nicely by an Editor. I hate to break it to you, nothing against anyone but this is BULLSHIT. Too bad you cant "wiki" the few Hundred thousand discs and LP and cassettes were on from 1985-2004. 14 Worldwide comp.s Too Bad you cant change history HH has a a whole Plethera of entries in BillBoards phonolog under Pop Artist and Rock H. GO SEE IT ITS IN THE BLOG.s Nice and Scanned for all the crybabies. Also About 400 Pieces of Press. in the "pics" 1984-2009.

Not Just some crunch guitar who according to this Bullshit would think didnt happen till 1990, In Fact It Happened by 1985. Good thing wiki cant rewrite all those comp.s HH is on on 6 labels three in japan, and on the same comp.s (14) with reagan youth g.b.h. UK Subs antiflag ECT.ECT.ECT.

"oh but if this didnt happen until I write it and reference it on the wiki" How Much BULLSHIT is that. You Cant rewrite the Truth. Not Only that but watch Video of the groups its no accident that after playing with many of them in 1988 they were influenced further by HH as was a Million sXe NJ hardcore bands. EVER WONDER WHY SO MANY "whammy-bar shit" in HC after 1988. Oh the answer is HH. esp. NJHC.

The whole discography is up www.myspace.com/officialhogansheroes all the references are up and will be written out on HH wiki. However This is why Im so Glad HH is a real band Outside of Clicks and "hardcore" most of this shit doesnt hold any water outside the "scene" . Go to Youtube HH was Streets ahead of that shit LIVE....theres the proof. I realize this has a certain criteria to follow But Fucking-A This is BULLSHIT. Not Only that but some fake-ass jealous losers are in a tiffy about this F-OFF You Cant Change the TRUTH.

Holy.. leave those rants to talk:metalcore. --Kmaster (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote it better and excluded any names that arent really needed to make a point. Ill be back to try and figure out how its going to fit in. Metalcore had double kick drumming and metal bass and guitar. HH only had the metal in the guitar and maybe drum fills. its not metalcore its hardcore with inflected metal in it. Thanks Kmaster for trying to point this in the right direction.

The thing is, the metalcore article was made for all metal-hardcore crossover genres, not only modern "melo-death" metalcore.--Kmaster (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The Middle Class

No mention of the Middle Class? Ludicrous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.7.237 (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Lets start the long list of bands

I am a rare Wikipedia editor. When I feel it particularly necessary, I do. This is my second time.

1) I added the following descriptive linked constructs: "self-determination, class conflict and injustice."

So the list now reads: "The songs are usually short, fast, and loud, covering topics such as: politics, personal freedom, self-determination, fascism, class conflict, authority, violence, injustice, social alienation, straight edge, vegetarianism, veganism, war, religion, drugs and the hardcore subculture itself.[2][3][4]"

2) Additionally, I added a short list of groups, that is the most overlooked part of the whole thing.

"Among them were: Bold, Gorilla Biscuits, Side By Side, Breakdown, Trip 6, Warzone and Youth of Today."

Even before the issue of who was the most influential, who was real hardcore or the difference between hardcore and hardcore punk. How derivative hardcore is from punk in lyrics and music. So how about we make a long list of bands and then debate each ones merits to the genre. My edit was summarily over posted with the extra and around the vegetarian part.

I WANTED TO SEE A LIST OF BANDS WHEN I GOT TO THE PAGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.5.134 (talk) 20:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• See List of hardcore punk bands.Spylab (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey Spylab, nice links list... One band I am looking for music from (I had it on cassette tape) is "Life's Blood" (east coast), they were really great. Any thoughts?