Talk:Doctor (title)

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Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (January 2004 to January 2006):

Vandalism

Hey I am not good at editing wikipedia (also not registered), someone obviously added some stuff FYI, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.178.92.194 (talk) 07:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Doctor in Italy

I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from a U.S. college, if I were to go to Italy or relocate to Italy would I then be able to refer to myself as Dr. Soandso? Also, may a college graduate from Italy who is entitled to use the title of Doctor in Italy also use the title of Doctor while outside of Italy? It's sort of a novelty to me (as I currently only have a BA degree) that I might actually be able to use the title of Doctor somewhere in the world. Also, just wanted to add this, while I was in the Army we called our medic (an e-4) "Doc" due to his ability to dispense meds, treat wounds and minor illness, etc while in the combat zone (Afghanistan) even though in "the real world" he wasn't qualified even to be an LPN nurse- I don't have any references for this but know it is pretty common in the military and thought it might be a good addition in the Misc, section of this article if someone might have the appropriate referrences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.33 (talk) 06:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe Portugal has a very similar system to Italy and I was referred to as Dr. in all official capacities, back when I had only a Masters degree. Astrojon (talk) 17:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Doctoral subject?

Academically, Law is a doctoral subject only in certain countries, the United States and all European countries among them.

Perhaps this is American terminology, since I have never heard of a "doctoral subject", nor of what I imagine is its corollary, a "non-doctoral subject".

Does it mean a professional discipline in which the basic qualification is a doctorate (such as the American JD)? In this case, the statement that "Law is a doctoral subject...in...all European countries" would be wrong, since England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are four European countries in which the basic qualification is either a BA in Jurisprudence/Law or the bachelor of laws (LLB) degree, or alternatively a postgraduate diploma ("conversion course") in law. (To pedants: yes, I wrote that on the basis that Ireland is one country).

People do get academic doctorates in law in these countries: both the DPhil/PhD in law and doctoral degrees in the "faculty" of Civil Law or of Laws (DCL or LLD - these are Higher Doctorates).

Finally, does it mean a "doctoral faculty" in the perhaps archaic sense of "faculty" as the faculty in which one takes one's degree? - the faculty of Arts has bachelors and masters ("Doctor of Arts" does not exist in the Atlantic Archipelago, or if it does it is very new), the faculty of Civil Law has bachelors and doctors (I've never heard of a "MCL"), the faculty of Laws has bachelors, masters, and doctors (LLB, LLM, LLD).--AlexanderLondon 20:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Evil

This is questionable -- it is far from clear that Dr. Evil does not have a doctorate. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Au contraire -- he mentions in one film about having gone to Evil Medical School, did he not? --User:grubi 25 August 2006

Thanks for refreshing my memory. So this should clearly be edited. --Daniel C. Boyer 13:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, it is not clear in the film, but probably he copied in the exams. Therefore his title should be questioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juansempere (talk • contribs) 22:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

In Spanish

I was told that in Spain a doctor is hold as a more prestigious title to an ingeniero, but that the reverse is true in Spanish America.

Well, yes. Here in spain a Ingeniero has five years of university study and is equivalent to licenciado (something like master). After obtaining their titles, both ingenieros and licenciados can obtain their doctorate in three years more.

Proposal of merge

I have been reading Doctor (title) and Doctor of Philosophy and both pages are more or less the same. ¿Anybody else thinks that is worthy to merge them? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juansempere (talk • contribs) 22:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

No, I disagree. The two articles are about different topics. Not all doctors are Doctors of Philosophy (the UK has two distinct tiers of substantive doctoral degrees, of which the PhD/DPhil is but the most common instance of the first tier). Indeed, not all doctors have doctorates - by long-standing historical precedent, the title 'Dr' is accorded to (and often, erroneously, considered synonymous with) holders of the degrees of Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery. If the two articles are more or less the same, then there is certainly scope for clarification and tidying up, but they should not be merged. -- Nicholas Jackson 09:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced comments

I deleted this comment: 'In a clinical setting however, it is considered extremely inappropriate, and is even illiegal in some places for someone without a [M.D.] to be addressed as "doctor."' It lacked a source and was misleading. An academic doctorate should not present him or her self in such a way as to lead others to believe he or she is a licensed physician. This is not the same as "illegal in some places." If this is true it needs proper citation. Bddaly 01:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I deleted this statement: 'In the United States when addressing formal correspondence those holding academic doctorates generally use the post-nominal, "Ph.D.".' The above needs a reference to confirm the statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.54.248 (talk) 08:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Plural abbreviation Dres

I put this in where the singular abbrev. appears (between the dashes). Someone removed it. I put in 2 lines for it to be clearer. Before/if you remove it, please write here what the problem is with that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.207.88 (talk • contribs)

That was me, I reverted it because I couldn't find anything to support it, and I was skeptical. The expanded version is much better, I just added a period after 'Dres.' since it's an abbreviation.Hemidemisemiquaver 06:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. In fact, I am not that sure anymore whether this is customary in English. I'm a native German speaker, and in Germany, it definitely is the case. Googling also reveals this usage in Spanish. I assume, Italian as well, probably French, too (romance languages?). I'll try to find out more. I'm adding "in some languages" for the moment.

Medical Doctorates in Germany vs the UK

As I understand it, it takes roughly six years of post-secondary study to complete a medical education in the UK. Those 6 years are divided into 3 years of pre-clinical course (normally leading to a first bachelor's degree, like a BA in Cambridge or Oxford) and 3 years of clinical course (leading to the simultaneous awarding of the MB and BChir degrees). If the student so wishes, he/she may intercalate 3 additional years of supervised research with the clinical course, allowing him/her, after submission of an original research thesis and approval in a oral exam, to graduate, after 9 years of study with both a MB/Bchir degree and a PhD degree. In any case though, a research doctorate in medicine, even when pursued in parallel to clinical training, cannot be completed in less than 3 years, which is the standard minimum time of study required for research doctorates in any subject in the UK.

It appears that, in Germany, medical education has a similar structure, i.e. 2 years of pre-clinical course plus 4 years of clinical course, with two required multi-stage State Exams taken over the 6 years. Like in the UK, a medical student in Germany can also complete an individual research project and submit a research thesis to earn a Dr. med. degree in addition to his/her State professional qualification as a physician (Arzt). Contrary to what happens in the UK though, it appears to be usually possible for a Dr.med. degree to be awarded in Germany in a very short period of time, let's say, within one year of the end of the undergraduate medical course, provided that the candidate completes most of his research project still as an undergrad. Should we conclude then that a Dr.med. degree in Germany is inferior, in terms for example of originality and significance of contribution to existing knowledge, than an English PhD or indeed other regular German doctorates (e.g. Dr-Ing., Dr.rer.nat., etc.), which take normally 3 or 4 years to complete beyond a first Diplom ? 161.24.19.82 20:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Answer: Yes. Though the german "Dr.med" suggests some kind of doctoral degree, it is merely a masters degree taking only one semster of research or data evaluation to complete. Some german medical students continue their education after the the "Dr med" to obtain a PhD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.191.196 (talk) 09:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

doctor mill

No article for doctor mill... --134.155.36.20 17:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Dr. med is the highest academic grade you can obtain in medicine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.145.89.65 (talk) 11:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Undergraduate medical education

Even though a medical degree (regardless of what it is called: MD, MBBS, MDCM, DO, MBChB, etc) may require a previous bachelors degree for admission, they are still regarded as "entry-level", "first-professional", undergraduate degrees in medicine.

Examples:

• http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/ugme/index.shtml
• http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md.htm
• http://65.39.131.180/ContentPage.aspx?name=MD%20Program%20Home

Jwri7474 (talk) 15:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"Entry-level" and "first-professional" perhaps, but at least in the United States an MD is not generally considered an "undergraduate" degree. There are a few undergraduate programs which grant a combined BS and MD, but the vast majority of MD programs require a BS or BA prior to admission. (See here for an example; other medical schools don't bother to mention it because it's so widely assumed that you won't apply to med school without a bachelor's degree.) And at least in the US, any program which requires a bachelor's degree is not regarded as an "undergraduate" program. (I'd have thought that this was self-evident from the term "undergraduate", but perhaps it's used differently outside the US.)

I think that this is a cultural difference between the conventions of US medical education and medical education elsewhere. The article should reflect this. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I think I may have found the source of the confusion. Within the medical establishment, a medical student who has not yet received his or her MD is referred to as an "undergraduate", in contrast with residents who've received their MDs but are not yet board-certified. In that context, a medical student is an "undergraduate" because he or she has not graduated from the MD program. However, that does not mean that an MD is an "undergraduate degree" as that term is usually understood in the US. That term is reserved for bachelor degrees; any program (such as medical school or law school) which is generally attained after four-year college is called a "graduate program", and the degrees it grants are "graduate degrees".

I think that the current wording is adequate to avoid this confusion. It's worth noting that in practice, it's extremely rare to find a medical student in the US who doesn't already have a degree from a four-year college. My wife's a medical student, and every one of her classmates has a BS or BA. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a funny situation, as they are regarded as first degrees, even though one already has a degree. It must be noted that in the UK, for many MB BCh degrees, they are a true undergraduate degree, with no previous study to degree level. It becomes a bit more difficult when you approach the American MD courses, or the Graduate Entry MB BCh courses in the UK. Strictly speaking once you have graduated from a degree, you can no longer be classed as an undergraduate, as your status in the University is higher (especially the case in older universities). However (at least in the UK) they are not a formal postgraduate degree either. So we are in a kind of limbo. I am currently a Graduate entry medical student and my university regards me as an undergraduate, although I do not regard myself as such! Astrojon (talk) 17:20, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Doctor title used in clinical settings?

Since when was it alright for nurses and Physical therapist to use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting? I don't think this is allowed.[1] Jwri7474 (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps when they hold a doctorate.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.13.13 (talk) 22:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Physical Therapists use the title wen they have the Doctor of Physical herapy degree. In the US almost all physical therapy education programs are Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT)DoctorDW (talk) 12:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Eric685 (talk) 13:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)== Dr.? ==

Would you call someone with a PharmD degree "Dr."? Doesn't seem to be the case actually. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.63.6 (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the setting; in a clinical settings nonphysicians are not generally called "Dr" to avoid confusion with patients. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.176.151.6 (talk) 14:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Please review the following websites where the websites refer to people with PharmD degrees as "Dr." http://pharmacy.uams.edu/departmentfaculty.asp http://ispor.org/regional_chapters/Chicago/documents/Baran_RobertBiosketch.pdf--Eric685 (talk) 13:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just as a quick point, I am a medical student, but I have a PhD. I am perfectly entitled to use the title Doctor, even when I am in the hospital, as long as I do not imply that I have completed my training when I haven't. As a practicality, I don't use my title in the hospital, as I feel it would confuse patients and staff. Astrojon (talk) 17:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• Generally doctor as a title is not used in settings where it may confuse a patient into thinking "physician" when the person actually isn't. In an academic setting that is usually not a problem. Fuzbaby (talk) 21:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting situation. I am writing from a UK perspective here, and as one who is a PhD, so entitle to used the title of Dr. No-one has a problem when a student who does not have a PhD is referred to as Mr/Mrs/Miss etc. in case they are mistaken for a surgeon. I know that most people are obviously too young to be FRCSs, but this is not so much the case now with graduate entry degrees. I could feasibly be a registrar if i had done medicine as my first degree. Anyway, this is not that serious a comment, just an interesting aside. Astrojon (talk) 21:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Most physical therapists in the US are not trained at the doctorate level. Most new programs now refer to themselves as doctorate (though they are only 3 years...thats another argument) so this will change in time. In any case, it is not appropriate for them to put themselves forward as a physician, so the title may be used as long as there is no confusion as to what their role is. Fuzbaby (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The degree awarded by virtually all physical therapy programs in the USA is Doctor of Physical Therapy. Additionally thousands of physical therapists have returned to university and obtained the DPT degree. Those who have earned the degree DPT use it in clinical, social, academic, and professional situations. Fuzbaby can you provide citations for your opinions? DoctorDW (talk) 22:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have to, if you want to include it, you need to cite it. I must admit, my only experience is several years as an NP, a decade of medical training for a MD, and my current work, where a physical therapist refers to themself as "shock" a physical therapist, and any one that said they were a physician would be fired and referred to their governing body for disiplinary action; at least in the united states its illegal to claim to practice medicine without a medical license. As for numbers, you are correct that most programs are now doctorate of pt (even though calling them a doctorate is part of the new trend in quasi doctorate degrees), however, the majority of PTs in practice have not trained in that model. As I already mentioned, this will change with time as more people go through these programs. Regardless, only physicians refer to themselves in ways that imply they are a physician in a clinical situation, something that is hard to explain if a person has not been in said situation and knows what I am speaking of. Fuzbaby (talk) 03:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from posting your comments as fact.DoctorDW (talk) 18:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Lol. (eyesroll) Fuzbaby (talk) 18:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

From your own source "In order to provide accurate information to consumers, physical therapists who have earned a Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree (DPT) and those who have earned other doctoral degrees and use the title "Doctor" in practice settings shall indicate they are physical therapists. Use of the title shall be in accordance with jurisdictional law." Exactly as I said; they must clearly indicate to the patients that they are not physicians. Fuzbaby (talk) 19:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

No. What you deleted was DPT's cannot call themselves doctor. Please refraim from the sarcasm and attitude the physicians I practice with are colleagial.DoctorDW (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

"and only ones that are (DPT) can use doctor, and in patient setting making clear not a physician" The PTs I work with read before spouting off. Fuzbaby (talk) 20:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

summary statement is not referenced. If you want it back in cite a reference.DoctorDW (talk) 22:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Whats the point? You seem to remove it w/o reading references anyways so that you can push a pov. Fuzbaby (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Inserting a reference from a society for NPs & PAs who are not doctors does not apply to the topic at hand. Their position holds no bearing on anyone who is not an NP or PA. Use an appropriate reference.DoctorDW (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, many NPs and PAs have doctorate lvl degrees. I'm sorry to deflate your balloon. Fuzbaby (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The title of the section is use of the title doctor. Your reference does not go to the topic. You are reaching by using references to distort fact. Try being respectful for a change i'm pretty sure the AMA has a policy on that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DoctorDW (talk • contribs) 18:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

By that logic then neither does any mention of PT as a doctor. Sorry, but the new trend is for allied health professions and mid levels to use quasi doctorate level training (and by that I simply mean not a PhD or MD lvl of training), and there is growing concern about role confusion in hospitals and clinics (some inadvertant, some intentionally unethical, as evidenced by your attitude here). The paragraph in question refers to all practitioners, not just ones you want it to refer to, so the reference is applicable. I've been giving you as much respect as I can muster for your obvious POV pushing. Perhaps you should take that advice, too. Fuzbaby (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not a page soley about PTs. Please don't assume ownership of articles to push a certain pov. Fuzbaby (talk) 01:34, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Nothing of the kind is occuring. You are pushing your POV that physicians are somehow superior and only other professions need to identify their role. All health care providers need to identify themselves properly. If a MD were to only say to a patient they are Dr. Fuzbaby and not indicate their specialty or in what capacity they were involved in the care of the patient it would be misleading. To not act in a colliegial manner has been identified as dusruptive behavior and a significant source of medical errors.DoctorDW (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

DoctorDW, you have displayed a pattern of attacking other editors, calling their edits pov in edit summaries and elsewhere, and have consistently shown that you refuse to allow any content not approved by you into the article. Your edits show a clear intention to make the article deliberately vague, and your insistance on straw man arguments shows that you are unwilling to discuss what is actually in the references and the reasons several editors have changed your language. Your manner has been far from "colliegial" and I've tried to be as patient with you as possible even though its very clear that your intentions are not to have an honest discussion here. I'm sorry if you feel slighted by people inserting factually correct information into the article, but that is the purpose of this encyclopedia. Fuzbaby (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The latest edit accurately reflects the references and I added one more. It is factually correct.DoctorDW (talk) 01:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. That is much better written now and I think gets across the important points. Fuzbaby (talk) 02:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to wade in on what seems to have become a controversial topic of late! I think the point that Fuzbaby and some others are trying to make is best summed up by referring to what most people would recognize by the term "doctor'. Most people would regard this as being a medical practitioner (i.e. physician or surgeon). This is why the use of the title is not always advisable in a clinical setting if you are not a physician etc. (I won't say surgeon as in my neck of the woods they are called Mr!) Referring to the UK (my own situation) and how I believe the situation is in many other countries, given the comments, it is an offence to imply that you are a qualified medical practitioner when you are not. This is why I do not use my title when with patients as a medical student. In addition, it would add confusion to a situation where many patients are already confused about the roles of who is coming to see them.

In an additional note, that is only applicable to the UK and those countries that follow a similar style of medical education, medical doctors graduate with an MB BCh (or some equivalent) degree which is NOT a doctorate (an MD is a separate postgraduate degree like a PhD in the UK). The title is purely honorary in the UK for medics. This means those of us with PhDs etc. have a right to call ourselves doctor, while medics (without a doctoral degree) can only call themselves doctor while they are practising. If they cease to practise, they lose the right.

To sum up the key points:

Anyone who has a doctoral degree can call themselves doctor.

In most jurisdictions it is illegal to pretend to be a qualified medical practitioner when you aren't

Thus, someone who is not qualified as a medic, but works in a healthcare setting and uses the title is leaving themselves open to accusations of commiting such an offence, therefore it is not advisable to do so.

In addition the use of such a title to patients would serve to confuse a population who are often already confused as to the status od those who treat them

It is advisable not to use the title in a clinical scenario if you are not a medical doctor, but it is no illegal, as long as you make sure that you are not leading the patient to believe you are a qualified medical practitioner when you aren't.

Astrojon (talk) 22:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure about British medics only being able to call themselves Dr while they are practicing, and losing that right if they cease to practice? I'd never heard this before, and it doesn't sound entirely plausible to me. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 23:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

The coverage of medical professionals seems rather bitter and certainly not neutral. At least in the UK it has become common to refer to medical practitioners as doctors as the first word of choice. What's needed is some proper references discussing the origins of this, as I do not question the fact that it may be an incorrect usage. BigBlueFish (talk) 13:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree entirely: I've re-written the section to make it entirely fact-based and (as far as possible) entirely verifiable. If you think its now adequate, perhaps you could remove the NPOV flag? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.245.76 (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

"Contraction from Greek"?

Sourcing for the statement that doctor comes from Gr. didaktōr via contraction? According to OED and other etymological dictionaries it's straightforwardly the agent noun of the native Latin verb docere, 'teach' (morphologically parallel to regere > rector; augere > auctor; vincere > victor et cetera). Of course, that derivation might be modeled on the parallel Greek form by means of loan translation, but that's a different thing from a "contraction". Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking further, Thesaurus Linguae Graecae doesn't even list didaktor as a Greek word, and Thesaurus Linguae Latinae has entries glossing Latin doctor with Greek δάσϰαλος, παιδευτής, ϰαϑηγητής, but no mentioning of διδάκτωρ. That Greek word may very well be a modern loan translation in the other direction. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Awarded to maiden name?

It is believed (i.e. I have heard people talking about it) that the title Dr. is given to a woman's maiden name after she gets a PhD, even though she is married and using her married name. However, I failed to find any references for this. I was wondering if anyone could clarify this. --Farzaneh (talk) 14:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Someone who holds a PhD (or, in fact, any other doctoral degree) is entitled to the style 'Dr' regardless of gender. (That goes for honorary doctorates too, although in practice it's sometimes regarded as bad form to do so.) In the UK, certainly, and also in many other countries there is no law requiring a married woman to take her husband's surname, and increasingly many women choose not to (especially if they have built a professional or academic career under their original surname). So (in countries where there is no law requiring specific behaviour) a married woman with a PhD is free to use any of the titles Dr, Mrs or Ms, together with either her husband's or her original surname. I have a few friends who have followed either protocol: at least one who adopted her husband's surname and a few who didn't; some use the title Mrs or Ms in non-academic or non-professional contexts, and some use Dr exclusively. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:18, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Mister

There was an unfortunate habit of shortening the list of Mister, Mrs, Ms, Miss down to just "Mister" in the discussion of surgeons not using "Dr" in Britain. That has unfortunate implications, so I've tweaked things. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

In the U.S.

If someone says he's a doctor in the USA, he is a physician. I think the majority of Americans outside academic circles do not associate the title Doctor with a holder of a PhD. I added a sentence on usage of the title of Doctor in the USA section. What is already there is unsourced and I don't think it's true (except maybe in academic circles). Also it sounds a little weasely. What do you think of that addition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.86.48 (talk) 02:50, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, I don't have any sources for the change and I don't feel strongly enough to look more. Sorry for any confusion/mistake. Next time I will do the work first or something 98.218.86.48 (talk) 04:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)