Talk:Web 2.0

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Criticism Section 1

Since there is so much dialog, I have created this sub-section for my edit. I removed the line referencing the book. This is not how to write an encylopedic article. If you are going to cite a book, you add it as a reference and then provide a numeric inline citation using Wiki markup. Plus this is not an college paper, APA, or MLA, its not really the best use of the text to provide a full blown inline book citation and then follow with a supporting statement; the Wiki markup has a far more eloquent solution for that, which assists the researchers of an article to verify its notability. Therefor, there is no need to provide inline book style citations in the article text. The other point is that there were probably many books written about it, at that time, and about that subject. If you are going to list one, list many, and provide them all as citations in support of the criticism. This strengths the position by providing it in a neutral way. Also, if you are going to quote someone, you really need a citation. I will check back and if that person quoted does not have a citation soon, I will be forced to blank that line. I agree with the criticisms, but it does not lend it due credit if it the prose is not well formed. --☯Lightbound☯ ^talk 13:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

This whole page should be a criticism

Any computer savvied person understands what has truly changed the last few years is the polishing of technologies that were already in place and the emergence of the wikis, mainly through wikipedia as well as the emergence of democratic voting sites like digg.com and reddit. There are more sources needed on reflecting those ideas because it's all over the place. We had videos, it just wasn't apparent enough. The internet got faster eventually, so what? It was to be expected, no "web 2.0" emerged, it just was the progress it would inevitably be (and it was slowly gradual and it keeps happening). Graphics and html rendering technologies got getter, so what? It was happening all the time and it keeps happening. It's insulting hearing people self-labeled to be computer scientists working on this jargon just for the sake of their parent company that wants this marketing in order to sell packages to customers that are foolish enough to upgrade just because they think they aren't "web 2.0" ready. Besides, web 2.01 would be the next day since, the internet is all-evolving. fs 22:19, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism

There have been repeated childish edits from 72.21.96.9 which the valiant efforts of a number of editors have kept on top of. Is there any way this IP address could be blocked? (I know that's not fool-proof, but it would reduce it for a while at least). Greyskinnedboy (talk) 19:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Does this article promote the subject in a subjective manner?

User User:Axel_Löfving has posted a peacock on this article (unfortunately without starting a discussion thread to present his points about which aspects are subjectives. I have posted on his talk page to invite him to add his points here. I would suggest that if he provides nothing to back this up, the tag is removed.

My comments there:

If you are going to do something as potentially confrontational as posting a peacock on a very active article like Web 2.0, could you at least open a dicussion on your reasoning so that it can be resolved? For some reason, the whole topic seems to raise emotions on both sides - it seems to be either a holy grail or the anti-christ (depending on the position) - in reality it is neither, it is a term coined to describe a shift in the way many people were thinking about and/or using the technology across the Internet. Sure, it gets hyped up by the evangelists, but there is a generally accepted definition (quoted and cited in the article); this is a term used in the media, industry, and increasingly by the general population. Could you lay out which aspects you regard as subjective, then there can be an open (and no doubt heated) discussion about it, but hopefully the article that results will be better for it. Thanks.

Let the games commence. Greyskinnedboy (talk) 02:20, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I posted the peacock notice, and I felt that it spoke for itself. To me, that wasn't about the promoting of the subject in a non-neutral matter (which I'm entirely uninterested in), but that the article was so steeped in jargon that I couldn't understand anything of it. I thought peacock stood for jargon, which is what makes this article unintelligible, at least to me. If I had any suggestions as to how to improve the article, would have started editing and/or posted some notice on this talk page. But as is, I can't make heads or tails on this article, because it's all marketspeech. Axel Löfving (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

There probably is too much jargon in this article and it should be cleaned up. Following the deletion of Web 3.0 (now saved to User:Greyskinnedboy/Web_3.0), I'm working on some suggestions which I will be posting back here to get consensus before changing anything. Thanks. (BTW: there are templates for jargon cleanup) Greyskinnedboy (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to see where in agreement :) (not much gamecommencing, thus ;P). English isn't my first language and I've mainly been editing the swedish wikipedia, were things work a bit differently. I realize now I came off as quite rude. Cheers to you for being so levelheaded. Axel Löfving (talk) 19:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

With the deletion today of Web 3.0, I have proposed that sub-sections are added to the Web 2.0 article for both Web 1.0 and Web 3.0, with the terms redirecting to those sub-sections. I have gained access to the deleted article of Web 3.0 so that I can prepare that. If successful, I then propose to merge Web 1.0 as well. Greyskinnedboy (talk) 03:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

A small section might be appropriate, but I suspect it suffer from the same problems as the web 3.0 article did - i.e. since a lot of people have individually incrimented Web 3.0 by 1 and come up with a meaning for it editors will try and include all of them, making it a huge cruft-magnet. The Web 1.0 article seems harmless but fairly pointless to me, and could probably be merged or simply redirected to here. Artw (talk) 16:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. My intent was to have a brief run through of the version numbers, with a paragraph or two at most. The Web 2.0 article is over long as it is, but most people seem to agree that (for the time being) Web 1.0 and Web 3.0 do not warrant their own articles, as they are reflections forwards and backwards from the current state. Greyskinnedboy (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

My attention was drawn to a parallel example, that of neologism and protologism. A neologism is a new word that is starting to be commonly used (like Web 2.0), while a protologism is a new word that has not entered common usage (like Web 3.0). The entry for protologism is actually a sub-section within the article on neologism, and serves as a prototype for how Web 3.0 should be treated within the article Web 2.0 (and Web 1.0 for that matter). Greyskinnedboy (talk) 21:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Both the reference to Web 1.0 and Web 3.0 only came to existence after the term Web 2.0 was coined. If Web 3.0 has been merged with Web 2.0 surely it is logic that a historic reference such as Web 1.0 which was only defined after the fact, should be merged with Web 2.0. I support Greyskinnedboy and strongly suggest a merger. The first Rambo movie was called "First Blood" not "Rambo I", and subsequently that has not been changed - not even on Wikipedia, where the link still refers to the origional title. Web 1.0 was not originally called Web 1.0, let's remove the misconception by merging the term with Web 2.0.--Gotfredsen (talk) 10:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmm ... If I pick up a dictionary, will it insist on using World War I under World War II, because the former only became common use after the latter began? Or would a dictionary list the two world wars separately, under their commonly accepted names? avaiki (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Although it is more correctly called The Great War, there was actually a discreet event with a definitive start and end to which we can refer (by whatever name we choose). It's OK that it's a retronym (i.e. named after the fact) because it was a real event ... but Web 1.0 didn't really exist/happen! OK, that's mainly because Web 2.0 doesn't really exist either.

Web 2.0 is a socio-technical phenomenon, and although created for marketing reasons it is now well into common or even mainstream usage. Web 2.0 reflects a definite zeitgeist and has reached a critical mass or tipping point, so it now cannot sensibly be argued that it doesn't deserve it's own article. Web 1.0 on the other hand, only makes sense in relation to Web 2.0 and cannot really stand in it's own right (as could the definition of World War I). On that basis, I suggested merging it with Web 2.0. Partly this was also done as a way of rescuing Web 3.0 which was created and deleted so many times, that I devised a different approach that would enable it to be retained as a reflective (forward looking) meditation on Web 2.0 ... in that way Web 1.0 is also a reflective (backward looking) meditation on Web 2.0.

However, what I originally suggested was chopping the whole Web 2.0 article down, and structuring a number of sub-pages underneath, and in that way I believe that Web 1.0 and Web 3.0 can live a sheltered life as their own article (hiding) under the wings of Web 2.0. On that poetic note, I think it's come time to start making that happen. Greyskinnedboy (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I vote Web 1.0 should be moved into this article. 59.167.219.63 (talk) 04:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This needs to be nipped in the butt. Web 2.0 exists and is definable, even if it is a marketing construct and we do not like it, the others are poorly defined at best and only exist as a consequence of 2.0 Marcus (talk) 09:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC).

Restructure proposal

Now I've spent some more time thinking through the merger proposal (above), I am concerned about the size of the article growing so quickly, at over 37K, will just get worse with adding in sections about Web 1.0, Web 3.0, and Web 2.1, etc.

Would it make sense now to chunk it down into a main page and some sub pages (i.e. with a '/' slash), to keep everything organised together, while enabling us to make the chunks more digestible? Your thoughts, please. Greyskinnedboy (talk) 02:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know what was meant by Web 2.0, so it was nice having it as a separate topic on Wikipedia when I Googled it. Should you choose to merge the pages, it might still be nice to keep the stub out there with a link to the merged info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.228.195.206 (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a totally biased and flawed discussion - here's why

There is no reason to have a page for Web 2.0 if you do not think that such terms have any useful function. This page should be eliminated by the same logic that Web 1.0 and Web 3.0 were eliminated. To do otherwise would reflect a bias.

The term Web 2.0 does NOT have ANY standard or accepted definition by the majority of professionals or users in the Web Community. It is a hotly debated term that was propagated for marketing reasons to promote a conference.

The terms Web 1.0 and Web 3.0 are equally, and not less, undefined and non-objective in meaning. In particular Web 1.0 only has meaning by reference to Web 2.0. As for Web 3.0 there is at least very wide usage -- and even an industry conference -- as well as hundreds of articles in blogs and mainstream press -- that refer to it. The definition is subjective, just like Web 2.0.

The Wikipedia is NOT a dictionary. It is supposed to reflect the concepts in our culture, even those that are not objectively definable. If they are active enough concepts to be cited by significant numbers of people and even the media, then they deserve their own pages.

It was absolutely the wrong decision to delete the Web 3.0 page and all that will result in is a huge wiki war. At the end of the day, Wikipedians should be stewards and curators who try to accurately reflect the world, not knowledge engineers who are trying to make a minimal representation. There is no constraint in size in the Wikipedia so there is no reason to delete the Web 3.0 page. There is no objective or sound reason NOT to have a page about Web 3.0 given all the facts above, the lack of any objective reason to NOT have it, and the fact that so many people WANT it.

Please see this article and definition of Web 3.0 as a time period http://novaspivack.typepad.com/nova_spivacks_weblog/2009/03/web-is-20-years-old-web-30-third-decade-of-web-officially-begins.html

Also note this query for "Web 3.0" in Google returns over 2.2 million results. If that isn't indicative of the validity of this concept what is??? http://www.google.com/search?q=%22web+3.0%22

--- Nova Spivack, CEO, Twine.com (One of the Original contributors of the wrongfully deleted Web 3.0 page) email me at: nova at twine dot com

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.87.210 (talk) 15:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi there:

Web 2.0 is just a buzzword, a marketing and technical jargon that group several concept in a (really) wide scope, but technically speaking, Web 2.0 is a superset of Web (Web 1.0) plus adding other protocols to the preexist ones (HTML, HTTP), the main and principal is XMLHTTP (usually called Ajax) or a two-way-asynchronous connection but it is not limited to other protocols.

In opposite, Web 3.0 is not bringing any new, Web 3.0 sometimes is defined as a business model,other times as a conceptual design,also is defined in a different field, but technically is not different to web 2.0 --200.83.2.4 (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2009

But yes, Wikipedia has accepted many other entries that are more weak that Web 3.0, the real trouble here is the "nerd rage" concept, even showing valid proof of it will not help at all. (UTC)--200.83.2.4 (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Web 2.0 stands on its own merits, regardless of what happens to the article on Web 3.0. 2.0 is well established in many circles, and needs an article here. If there is any relationship at all, it's that 2.0 (whatever it's merits) defines both 1.0 (what came before 2.0) and 3.0 (what comes after 2.0), so that it is axiomatic that if you want a 3.0 article, you have to accept a 2.0 article—but the converse is not true. — Aldaron • T/C 21:06, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Copy that. I think a merge is the best solution. A paragraph each would be plenty. Might add this to my to-do list. Any continued (and non-caps-locked o_0) objections? Publicly Visible (talk) 00:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Web 2.0 is not a buzzword, it has taken on meaning, regardless of its (supposed) origin. The suggestion that a marketer coined the term and therefore it shouldn't be considered a valid term is not viable. Words are not tied to their origin, but to the life they take on. Otherwise we would be stripping thousands of words from usage.

Web 2.0 is ambiguous/complex And it is debated. And so are many complex concepts. Which is why this page exists, and it does a fairly good job of summarizing a complex and evolving concept.

Web 1.0? Never heard of it. It exists only in reference to Web 2.0. And whatever it was, it could easily be explained within the 2.0 article, and actually should be in 2.0 (IMHO).

Web 3.0? It is a good idea to retain this article from the user standpoint. In essence, 3.0 becomes the article capturing ideas for the future of the web. Where else would a user search if they wanted to see what ideas about the future of the web are?

Mposth (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)Mark Posth

tt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.163.248.30 (talk) 13:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Archive?

Someone want to archive this discussion page? It's very long. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 06:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Was way too long. Rror (talk) 14:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)