Talk:Black legend

POV Cleanup

I tried to clean this up and make it a bit more NPOV; most of it seemed to be not a description of the topic but vehement rebuttal of it.

I removed the sentence "Britain was given the exclusive right to slave trading in Spanish America." pending explanation or source; I know for much of the time the UK and Spain were rivals and even at war. -- Infrogmation 20:52 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

I believe that the reference is to the Asiento granted to the United Kingdom under the Treaty of Utrecht (1713). To the best of my recollection, between 1713 and Spain's entry into the American War of Independence, Britain and Spain were at peace except for the very brief War of the Quadruple Alliance. Try googling in the English language on "The Asiento". -- Alan Peakall 16:43 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

Sorry for the error above. I forgot Spanish entry to the Seven Year's War. Irrelevant to this article but I wanted to correct the misinformation. -- Alan Peakall 09:09 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you. Still, the original was rather misleading, with no note that there had been slavery in Spanish America for some 2 centuries before that treaty, etc. Certainly England, Spain, France, The Netherlands, and Portugal all had trafficed in the slave trade in the era. Another point I'd like to know more about is "white legend" or "pink legend". IIRC, in Guatemala in the 1970s I only heard it discussed as the "white legend". Googling for "leyenda negra" "leyenda blanca" and for "leyenda negra" "leyenda rosa" gets just slightly more hits for rosa; in English "black legend" "white legend" got over 200 hits while "black legend" "pink legend" got only 2, suggesting that white legend may be the more common term in English-- although FAIK correct accademic use may be otherwise. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:26 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

I think this belongs under the Spanish inquisition article. It seems to be unclear as to a general application of its meaning and a Spain-specific aspect... In other words, what is the thrust and it seems to be perhaps worthy of stubbing, rather than to be a nexus for material elsewhere.. -&#35918&#30505 ps. Ie: Its an article about what they say others say of them. Kinda like other terms describing how other people think - it can get into very vague territory.

Added to Votes for Deletion

I have added this page temporarily to Votes for deletion because of its highly apologetic nature, but now changed into an NPOV stub. For the record, below is the archived discussion from VfD. --Eloquence 03:31 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

• Black legend -- the entire article is extremely biased from a Catholic point of view, and can hardly be turned into something useful without a complete rewrite. It is also incomplete. --Eloquence 02:07 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
  • You can see a 1994 BBC/A&E production: "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition,".
    • Yes, I can do this. And I can see many other apologetic productions, they are not hard to come by these days. The point is, we try to write articles from the neutral point of view, and we do not claim that one historical perspective is "correct". I have no objections against an article about the Black Legend (which I do believe to exist to some degree, but less as an exaggeration and more as an unjustified focus -- the Protestants did commit similar crimes), but the current one is an egregiously biased case for the garbage bin. --Eloquence 02:23 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
      • And The Witchhunt? (In Spain, Portugal and Italy don't were so important than in protestant countries)
        • And the killing of native american, irish and australian and tasmanian aborigens?

Upon quick research, it does appear to be revisionism - But ill make the case that revisionism isnt so much about refuting, as it is about degrees of fact. Its perfectly valid to say: "Of what people think of the Inquisition, its wasnt as bad as they say" which may be true - 1. it depends on what they say and 2, it depends on what people think - there is clearly room for dualist views on this. -&#35918&#30505

As I said, I have no objections to an NPOV article about the Black Legend variant of revisionism. The current article does not comply with our rules, and should therefore be deleted or rewritten from scratch (which I don't have time to do).--Eloquence 02:29 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

You can't delete Black Legend if you want. Although, the first part is interesting, because is a term used by famous historians. Really, this article was a protest by the originals versions of Conquistador or Spanish Inquisition, that are not an NPOV article.

• Had the South African Apartheid some equivalent in the Spanish (catholic) colonies? Eloquence, you are a typical guy blinded by the Black Legend. I do not like your insistence on removing the Black Legend article since your reasons are based on your own ignorance. This is the Wikipedia, man.

Note: the listing of the article on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion was back in 2003. It was decided to keep. There is no current listing to delete the article. -- Infrogmation 20:04, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• OK, I did not pay attention to the date, thanks.

Licentious

I removed licentious from the original description, for it does not fit the stereotype, whereas fanatic certainly does. The Spaniard of the "Black Legend" is more ascetic than licentious. The comparison to the folk picture of "The Turk" seemed worth mentioning.Wetman 06:52, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Cleaned up

This is turning into a the start of a pretty decent article, though it's got a ways to go. I just cleaned up a lot of text obviously written by a non-native speaker and added some reference points for people more familiar with the history of the English-speaking world than the Spanish-speaking world. The first half of the article is now pretty decent, but it falls way off when it hits the Enlightenment. -- Jmabel 17:44, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

White Legend

Also, I see that White Legend is just a link back to this article. I've now bolded accordingly, but we could use a section explicitly discussing the White Legend, which is an equally tendentious matter in its own right. -- Jmabel 17:49, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

I took a first shot at this, largely by reviving some material formerly deleted from the article and recontextualizing it as the White Legend. This probably needs more work. -- Jmabel 18:26, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the White Legend is also a tendentious matter, but its influence on the World’s perception about Spain is non-existent, saving Spain, while the Black Legend is a tendentious folklore that has overrun the world, and it is still suffered by the Spaniards now days in many aspects.

There have been two major deletions relating to this topic by two separate anonymous editors in the last two days (one reverted by Jmabel) - are they the same person? I left a reasoned message for the first one, but what's the point? --shtove 22:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Benevolence

I'd like to comment on the paragraph beginning "As for destruction of populations and cultures, the White Legend claims that the demographics of much of Latin America today favor Spain's claims to benevolence. " While this sounds pretty NPOV the rest of the paragraph seems quite apologist. Rather than saying this is what the White Legend claims, it makes the claims itself. The thing that really caught my attention was the last sentence: " There is no equivalent in the American countries which were originally colonized by other European powers, nor in Australia or New Zealand." As a New Zealander I know New Zealand is officially bi-lingual, with the indigenous language, Maori, holding equal status with English (admittedly English is by far the most widely-used language in New Zealand). I'm not going to edit the sentence because I think it unfair to just remove reference to New Zealand when I reckon the whole paragraph should be rewritten. Unfortunately I don't think I'm competent enough in this subject to attempt the rewrite. -- TeWaitere 23:02, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

New Zealand has recognized the Maori language (just at both the U.S. and Canada have large regions in which native languages now have the same status as English; the U.S. doesn't have official languages, just customary ones, but its a matter of things like what languages are used to print government forms, etc.), but can you actually say that they spread it more widely? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:45, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

Please, we need impartiality in our encyclopedia

It is ironic in no small size that while the Wikipedia includes a complete and documented article about the Black Legend, the Wikipedia itself present a lot of articles regarding Spanish facts and Spaniards, absolutely influenced and faked by the Black Legend and the Anglo-Saxon folklore.

As a Spaniard, I am not agree also with the Pink Legend, but I would ask the contributors for a little bit more of impartiality and objectiveness in their articles, otherwise the Wikipedia looses part of its own core.

www.famousamericans.net

The reference to www.famousamericans.net is extremely unclear. Unlike the other items in the list, it is not particularly well known. It's a massive site with thousands of biographies, and I have no idea what in it might be objectionable (perhaps something is, but there is no way to tell). I think it may be a reprint of something very old.

Perhaps it belongs in the article with actual discussion of who has criticized it, but mere inclusion in the list is little better than linkspam. This should either be fleshed out or removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:01, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

I am Spanish and I have overviewed some biographies of Spanish conquistadors in www.famousamericans.net, and I have not found clear scratches of Black Legend in it. As I said, I just overviewed the biographies, but the most of the times, an overview is more than enough to know whether there is Black Legend in it or not. I think that despite the Black Legend is indeed present in many web sites, www.famousamericans.net is not one of them, and this reference should be removed. (anon 25 April 2005)

Bartolomé de las Casas

Since people have been changing around the number of Arawaks murdered according to Bartolomé de las Casas in Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias: does anyone have a specific citation, from a specific edition, with page number? -- Jmabel | Talk July 4, 2005 18:23 (UTC)

I don't know about the Arawaks, but Maltby in his The Black Legend in England p.18 states that las Casas stated in his Relacion that "anywhere from thirty to fifty million Indians were slain by the Spaniards". It's not what you're looking for, but it points up how controversial numbers can be. By the way, I tried footnoting a quote from Maltby, but it hasn't quite worked.shtove 22:43, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Westward Ho!

I know this section doesn't have enough to stand on its own, but I think it could be developed to show how the Black Legend was used during the Protestant Revival in Britain during the 19th c.shtove 22:43, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Reverted edit

I reverted this edit because most of this was uncited "original research", with much blatant POV (and even "signed" opinions). Still, I suspect there was useful material here, and I encourage others to look through it, and see if there are nuggets. I simply didn't have time: and after 15 minutes I concluded that the net effect was negative, I couldn't find anything obviously worth salvaging, and I decided to revert and go on to another article where I was more likely to be able to make a positive contribution.

I also encourage the anonymous contributor to bring these issues to the talk page to possibly work with someone on getting some of this material into the article in a way that complies with Wikipedia style, NPOV, etc., and/or find some decent citations: these interpretations can go in if they are those of a citable, significant scholar, but not as someone's personal opinions. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

And another

It seems this article is under assault. This edit ("White Legend" removed because no sources cited.) removed discussion of the white legend. I reverted. I won't say this article is a masterpiece of citation -- it's not -- but I think it is basically on the mark. If there are some specifics for which someone wants to see citation, bring it up on the talk page and someone (probably me) will try to track down an appropriate citation.

The edit summary suggests that the contributor doubts the very use of the term leyenda rosa. Here are a couple of decent citations for that:

• Celestino Andrés Araúz and Patricia Pizzurno, El Panamá Hispano, Third Edition, published by the Panamanian newspaper La Prensa, 1997: p. 7. Available online as a PDF.
• Feliciano Páez-Camino Arias"La imagen de Felipe II y los estereotipos sobre los Españoles y su historia, on the site of the University of Leiden, accessed 6 Oct 2005.

It's a bit tricky term to do a web search for relevant uses of this term, because the term leyenda rosa is not specific to this usage: it can be a generic term in Spanish for what we in the U.S. might call "a whitewash". However, the two cited examples both specifically contrast it to leyenda negra used in the sense of our article.

As for English-language citations for the term "white legend":

• Fr. Brian Van Hove, S.J., "Beyond the Myth of The Inquisition: Ours Is 'The Golden Age'"
• Haynes, Keith, "Obituary: Benjamin Keen (1913-2002)", Hispanic American Historical Review vol. 83, no. 2, May 2003, pp. 357-359. The relevant passage is "In this exchange, published in the pages of the Hispanic American Historical Review, Ben challenged the then-dominant paradigm of conquest and colonization that emphasized Spain's heroic mission of civilization, which he properly scorned as a 'White Legend.' I found this quoted on line at [1]

Those were relatively quickly found on the web; none look to me like they offer a lot of material relevant to the article, they are only citations for the term, so I don't foresee adding them to the article as references. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Spanish Contributions

In the And another section (above) Jmabel maintained an even-handed interest, but it wasn't his area to sort out. Can't someone just take the article in hand and give it a consistent rewrite? It's broken up into bits and pieces (Westward Ho! is my fault), but some seem particularly interested in the spin they can put on or take off (whether pro-Spanish or anti-Catholic), rather than the substance. It's beginning to look like Holodomor, with different ideologies taking swipes at each other over a half-baked contribution. Perhaps a Spanish-speaker could adapt bits of the Spanish Wikipedia equivalent.--shtove 19:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I am happy to take care of this if I find the chance. Regards, Asterion 19:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The article in es:wiki is really not what it should be. I begun to write it, but lost élan on the way. From that point on, there have been some contributions that are quite POV in my opinion. I have deleted some, but not others. The article still has to be completed. For instance it lacks the parts referred to the Spanish Black Legend in South America, where governments have used it to increase local nationalism and justify their own mishaps. On the other hand, the black legend is so deeply rooted on people's mind, that you have to use half the article to explain why something is black legend and not just plain history. That makes the article look a bit strange and there is a danger of falling into justifying Spanish actions in history. It's a tricky article...So I wouldn't recoment the Spanish article as a base for this one. You may take some ideas and pick here and there, but not as a whole. Cheers. Ecelan

Double cheers, but is Ecelan being modest? Personally, I can't pick here and there from the Spanish article because I don't understand Spanish. The fact remains that this article in English is such a mess, and it is amongst English speakers that the Black Legend has been most willingly accepted. As for the article, Spanish-users seem to come charging in with the assumption that everyone is against them; and along the way there is plenty of protestant sniping. I've clicked on the Spanish and Dutch equivalents - which appear to enjoy much better organisation and coherence - and left brief English-language messages on the discussion boards seeking contributions (to my credit, English is a form of lower German, and I really wish my Latin was in better shape). Couldn't contributors to each of those sites get together and sort out a unified article, acceptable in its main parts in the three languages? English might be the best choice for mediating such a project. I would include French, but their Black Legend article is merely a stub (or is that, snub?).--shtove 21:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The article in English wikipedia is the origin of the Spanish article (this one is caotical, but it contains mucha informatión that the SSSSSSspanish wIkiPedistas aDfgfded after) Te lo digo yo, que escribo mejor en español que en inglés :) --Gimferrer 13:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Gimferrer. Ecelan said it was he who started the Spanish Wikipedia article, and he has an English talk page - couldn't you discuss the English article with him and see if he'll help? Without Spanish input PLUS organisation the English article is crap.--shtove 19:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Gimferrer is right, at the beginning I leaned on the en article, but changed quite a bit. I'll tell below how I thougt the article should be. --Ecelan 18:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Continued disparagement of the "White Legend"

I see that the material on the White Legend has now been restored (even amplified) but with comments in the initial paragraph that strike me as uncited opinion utterly dismissive of the subject, and which say—pretty much in so many words— that anyone who believes there is such a thing as a White Legend is a proponent, believer or advocate of the Black Legend. I am very inclined to remove this as blatant POV, but I figured I'd give at least 24 hours for discussion before I edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, to me (POV), what is under White Legend is actually just another example of Black Legend. Most of it are refutations to the Black Legend, and not actually White Legend. White Legend is more similar to the Mission civilisatrice of the French: Spain took civilisation to savage indians, in spite of themselves and with a very high human cost, Spain took the glorious Spanish language and culture to America and most important of all, Spain took them the true and only God, Spain saved their immortal souls from eternal condemnation. That is White Legend.

Saying that For example, in dealing with Hernán Cortés's conquest of Mexico, the White Legend emphasizes that Cortés's army consisted largely of Native American enemies (and disgruntled vassals) of the Aztec Empire and credits the most exaggerated accounts of Aztec human sacrifice and cannibalism. is just dismissing an argument that tries to balance the Black Legend. Most of the text are just refutations of the Black Legend. Is that NPOV? Discrediting someone and then saying that any refutation is also biased is an old trick in propaganda. The term White Legend is very often used to discredit any argument against Black Legend. The text under White Legend is actually the demonstration of the sentence: The supposed existence of a pro-Spanish "White Legend" is a particularly insidious aspect of the Black Legend in that it purports to bring "balance" to an imagined "debate" over the reality, existence, authenticity or accuracy of the defamatory Black Legend.

Of course, this is my POV, so I am not changing or reverting anything on the text. And, answering to shtove, I've only made a proposition of how I thought the article should look like. I am not going to work directly on it for two reasons: my english is not good enough and I have a strong POV on the subject, so I prefer other people to work on it. I can help and comment, etc. but not work directly.

--Ecelan 19:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ecelan, I am also Spanish, and I agree with you at 100%. In the White Legend section there appear a lot of historic thruths that are nonetheless that evidences agaisnt the Black Legend. If you put them in the White Legend section, you are saying at the end that they are also inventions, as the ones which support the Black Legend. Apart from this, the White Legend is virtually inexistent, not only in Spain, but also worldwide, but ironically, the White Legend section has quite a large extension. As you said, I even would say that the emphasis on the existence of a supposed White Legend is indeed a fundamental piece of Black Legend. The message is basically: "Please, do not believe what the refusers of the Black Legend say, they are blinded by the White Legend." Today (XXI century), even in Spain the Black Legend still being a problem agaisnt which the historians have to fight. In my opinion, most of the text that follows the White Legend title is absolutely misplaced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.213.232.51 (talk • contribs) 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)

So let me ask you both: do you feel that Spain was uniquely good as a colonial power? Because I have certainly heard people make that claim, which to me constitutes a white legend. I have no problem with the claim that Spain was more or less exactly as "good" or "bad" in the New World as the other major European powers of the era, but claims of extraordinary Spanish benevolence strike me as just as dubious as claims of extraordinary Spanish malevolence. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, I will talk about what I think. First of all, I do not think that Spain was ‘’uniquely’’ good as a colonial power. Spain conquered America because of the gold and the other resources, as everybody with common sense know, and as all the other colonial powers did along the History.

What seems outraging to me is that today, it is still persisting in the mind of many people that only Spain did that as colonial power, or that Spain was the worst one. On the other hand, England, Holland, France, etc, invaded, killed, looted, raped and robbed, and most importantly, attacked and fought Spain, for humanitarian reasons, in the name of the freedom. I know I am Spanish, and I know that is difficult for me being impartial on this topic. But, trying to be impartial, trying to throw away any patriotic or emotive feeling, I would say that, indeed, Spain was among the least bad colonial powers in the History, which make the Black Legend even more molest and difficult to understand for me. Note that I am not the only one who thinks that way, but also many anglosaxon historians claim that Spain was, in fact, among the least destructive colonial powers in the History. Some of them claim that Spain was even the least bad European colonial power. I suggest you to read the work of some Hispanist. Note that the Hispanists, are not pro-Spanish historians or Spaniards that defend our national History, but foreign historians (mainly British, French and Americans) experts in History of Spain. The historic facts talk by themselves.

For instance, in this Wikipedia article, we can read in the White Legend section:

Black Legend proponents of the White Legend tend to excuse the Spanish Inquisition, emphasizing that in form it merely copied institutions already in place in the rest of Europe (the suppression [..] and comparing the Inquisition favorably with […] the witch hunts in many Protestant countries.

As far as I know, the Spanish Inquisition was not copied from anywhere. But the Spanish Inquisition was by a longshot least bloodtshirty than the Witch Hunting in England or Germany. This is a matter of numbers. The maths are equal in the Earth or in Marsh. 2>1, 2+2=4. This is an hitoric fact easily contrastable. This is not White Legend. The question is not whether the Spanish Inquisition was good or bad. Obviously, it was an evil institution. The question is why the idea of the Spanish Inquisition as the paradigmatic institution of the evil, perversion and fanatism is still persisting worldwide? The Black Legend is the answer. As a consequence of that, a lot of people still thinking around the world that Spain is a very religious country. In fact Spain has one of the higher degrees of atheism among the western societies. This is a fact. This is not White Legend. As an anecdotic issue, I would remind “The Pit and the Pendulum” by the anglosaxon poet Edgar Allan Poe. In this tale, even the invaders of Spain (the French) are the good ones. I do not need to say that in the 1800’s nobody was tortured in Spain by the pit and the pendulum. Why Poe wrote such a tale? The Black Legend is the answer. (of course, I think “the pit and the pendulum” is a masterpiece, looking only the artistic side).

Similarly, these advocates tend to excuse the "The Spanish Fury" or the sack of Rome […] They criticized the fact that Belgian, Italian or German rampages were enlarged upon and attributed to Spanish soldiers in order to enhance the anti-Hispanic Black Legend.

The Spanish Fury was carried out mostly by Spaniards. This is a fact, not an opinion. But the Sack of Rome was carried out, by their own, by German pickemen, despite the fact that their were included in the Spanish Imperial army. This is a fact, not an opinion. The soldiers who sacked Rome were born in Germany. This is, indeed, a fact. This is not a subjective matter. This is not White Legend. How would do you feel, if you were a Spaniard, hearing a German blaming your country for the Sack of Rome? It happened to me.

Cortés's army consisted largely of Native American enemies (and disgruntled vassals) of the Aztec Empire and credits accounts of Aztec human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Cortes’ army consisted largely of Native American enemies of the Atec empire. Again we deal with maths. 1<2, 3+2=5. We could make that question: Where were born the major part of combatants who defeated the Aztec empire? The answer is America. This is not a subjective matter. This is pure mathematica. This is not White Legend. This is a fact. But this would mean that the Aztecs, as the Spaniards, were not that good. On the other hand I don’t think that Cortes was too worried about cannibalism. He was thinking, logically, as all the other European conquerors, about the golden and the glory. Dealing with this issue, we could talk about the myth of the fire weapons used by the Spaniards agaisnt the Aztecs. The fire weapons were useless in the major part of the combats that the Spaniards fighted agaisnt Native Americans. The real advantage were the iron swords. But this fact, would mean that the combats were fighted in the short distance, and we could talk about valor and skill, and not only technological supremacy. A valor and skill that have been never admited out of Spain, which is actually an unique case in the History. Anyway, It doesn’t really matter.

There is no English or French equivalent of Bartolomé de las Casas

Is there? Who is him?

Spain was the first European colonial power to pass laws protecting the natives of its American colonies as early as 1542 with the Laws of the Indies (Spanish: Leyes de Indias).

Again we deal with facts, and not with White Legend. The first Laws to protect the Indians were indeed passed in the early XVI century. This is a fact easily contrastable. Did England such a thing before Spain? Did Holland such a thing? Did France such a thing? Did Germany such a thing? Russia? Italy? Japan? China? Turkey? If they did, the previous statament is White Legend.

Today the descendants of the aboriginal Americans constitute the base of the population in many of the countries that comprised the Spanish Empire in America.

Again we deal with facts. Think about a Bolivian. Think about a Mexican. Now think aobout an American. Think about an Australian. Even think about a South African. You have answered yourself.

Some Amerindian languages have reached rank of co-official tongues in Latin American countries […] It is likely that Spanish priests actually spread Quechua beyond its original geographic area. This active spread of a native language by Europeans has no equivalent in the American countries which were originally colonized by other European powers […]

Again, we deal with facts, and not with points of view. Why is this depicted as White Legend? The answer is clear: Because this is a clear evidence agaisnt the Black Legend.

The White Legend plays down the Spanish role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade by emphasizing the role of the English but also that of the Dutch, French, Belgian, Portuguese and other Europeans.

At the end we found in the White Legend Section something that is actually White Legend. The Spanish did not trade with slaves least than the English did.

The expulsion of Jews was quite common in the medieval Europe: France (1182), England (1290), France again (1306, 1321, 1322, 1394), Austria (1421), Spain (1492), Sicilly (1492), Lithuania (1495), Portugal (1496, 1497), Germany (1510), Napoles (1541), Genove (1550, 1567), Germany (1554), Italy (1569, 1593). Why everybody know about the expulsion of the Spanish Jews, and few people know about the other ones? I will allow you to answer.

Another insidiuos and molest part of the Black Legend to me is the depiction of Spanish combatants as cowards, stupid, always outnumbering the enemy and being defeated. The historic fact is that the Spanish combatans have been mostly outnumbered in most of the battles fighted by Spain along the History, and they were able to keep a worldwide empire during 350 years. As an anecdotic issue, I would suggest you the article about the Spanish Armada here, in the Wikipedia. It was pretty funny to see it evolutionig from the first words written talking about a few English patriots defeating the evil and stupid Spaniards (as most of the people think worldwide) to the current structure, talking about a far least pleasant reality for England. Specially interesting is the External Link provided, by Wes Ulm from the Harvard University. It seems that fortunatelly some foreing historians are waking up. In this article you can see the Black Legend working on, and fortunately, being ultimately defeated by the thruth.

I am sorry for my commet took too long and my bad english, but I am an ocasional visitant of the English Wikipedia and I needed to say this. Cheers Recesvinto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.213.251.56 (talk • contribs) 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I actually agree with the bulk of what you've said. I do have some remarks:

1. The number of people killed for witchcraft was, in the not too distant past, estimated quite high, but historians have tended in recent years to revise that down; see Witch-hunt#.22The_Burning_Times.22. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a reputable historian today who would say that the numbers exceeded 60,000 in all of Europe (Spain itself included), and most would say about half that.
2. I suspect that the expulsion of the Jews from Spain is particularly prominent for three reasons. One is, doubtless, the Black Legend. Another is that the ban effectively continued down into relatively modern times, long past the emancipation of the Jews in the rest of Western Europe. (On the other hand, Spain is rarely given the credit it deserves for its actions toward Jews in the Nazi era, particularly remarkable when you consider how much Franco owed his position to Hitler and Mussolini.) The third is that prior to the expulsion, the Jews had played such a prominent cultural role on the Iberian peninsula for so long, and the Iberian Jews had played such a prominent role in world Jewry. When England kicked out the Jews in 1290, it did not particularly change the nature of world Jewry. The expulsions from Spain and Portugal were much more dramatic in what they meant for the Jewish people as a whole.
3. Yes I certainly agree that Bartolomé de las Casas was remarkable, and unique to Spain, as was the concept of rights-based law developed by the School of Salamanca.
4. England, FWIW, did eventually try to protect the Indians from its own colonists, but they probably waited too long. It was the 17th century, and there were, by then, an awful lot of English colonists in America.

I do see what you mean when you say that a lot of this should not be consigned to the realm of "white legend". Still, (for example) Bartolomé de las Casas was, after all, describing what he saw within the pale of Spanish colonialism. It's one of those things that can be "worked" in several directions, and a "white legend" arises when people remember de las Casas himself, but choose to forget the abuses he described. Again, not that they were unique to Spain, I'm sure they were typical of all the European nations, but one dissenter does not make a radically different nation.

I really think the only way we are finally going to have a good article here is for someone to take the time to sit down with some scholarly sources; this particular topic is not one where I really want to do that work. It may be that what you are saying is entirely correct, but as I've remarked before, this article is woefully short on citation. Some statements now in the article right strike me as patently false: "Advocates of the Black Legend postulate the existence of a White Legend comparable to the Black Legend in extension, influence and persistence in time." I have never heard anyone assert that, and the weasel-word "Advocates" suggests to me that neither, in fact, has the author of the sentence. And what on earth does "Black Legend proponents of the White Legend tend to excuse the Spanish Inquisition" mean? This article really needs someone who wants to do some heavy lifting: this is a matter of careful research on what has actually been written by scholars who represent a range of views, not a matter of editing to one's taste. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, just some remarks to your comment:

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a reputable historian today who would say that the numbers exceeded 60,000 in all of Europe (Spain itself included), and most would say about half that.

Probably the historian have tended to revise the Witch Hunting number of victims down, but I assure to you that they have done it not so much as they have tended to revise the Spanish Inquisition number of victims down. Apart the fact that the Witch Hunting was virtually inexistent in Spain, we still dealing with the same problem. Why the Spanish Inquisition is the paradigma?

I found particulary interesting your explanation about the fame of the expulsion of Jews from Spain. You used valid and smart reasons. But we still having problems: why is seldom mentioned that the Spanish Crown gave the chance to the Jews to convert themselves to the catholicism? Probably the Catholic Kings were recalcitrant catholic, but also the Jews were quite recalcitrant. In fact, the correct way to name this historic fact would be to say that “the Jews who refused to convert themselves to the catholicism were expulsed”. Note that I do not say this as an apology of the expulsion, which was an execrable act, but to try to show where is the Black Legend hidden in this issue. The Black Legend works by directly inventing lies and difamation, or by deforming the reality in an interested way, or by exagerating the bad side while hidding the good one.

You said

Yes I certainly agree that Bartolomé de las Casas was remarkable, and unique to Spain

First of all, Bartolomé de las Casas was not unique to Spain, but unique during centuries to the World. Secondly, Bartolomé de las Casas was not unique to Spain, since he was the visible head of a considerable group of remarkable people, who dedicated their whole lives to defend the native americans: Gutierre de Ampudia, Pedro de Rentería…Could you name just one englishman, dutchman or any other european citizen who did so before the XVIII century?

You also said

It's one of those things that can be "worked" in several directions, and a "white legend" arises when people remember de las Casas himself, but choose to forget the abuses he described.

I think you lost the path of why the facts surrounding Bartolomé de las Casas are a clear refutation of the Black Legend. Bartolomé de las Casas published his Brevísima relación de la destrucción de las Indias in 1552. This book is a description of the abuses against the native Americans in which the facts are clearly exaggerated. Las Casas presented delirious numbers. He wrote that the Spaniards exterminated a number of about 30-50 millions of native Americans only in what is now known as Haiti and República Dominicana. Firstly, note that supposing that in such island lived such a number of natives (and supposing that 3000 Spanish settlers killed all them off), the density of population would had been almost as high as it is in the modern Bangladesh. Secondly, the Nazis during the XX century were not able to reach such a number of victims by far, despite their actual determination and effort, the modern weapons, machine guns, submarines ,extermination fields, the Zyklon B, the indiscriminate bombing and the use of a true "extermination engineering". But we have that the Brevísima relación... was not only published in Spain, but Las Casas, instead of being burnt or tortured or executed or buried alive or thrown to the pit and the pendulum or so, had a meeting with the Spanish Kings an his book established a true debate about the legitimacy of the Spanish colonization of America as early as the XVI century. This fact had not European (and I would say that Worldwide) equivalent during centuries. Needless to say, the welcoming for the Brevísima relación... in France, England, Italy, etc was enthusiastic. This are, in my opinion, the facts because the existence of Bartolomé de las Casas and his Brevísima relación is a clear evidence against the Black Legend, and can not be worked in several directions as far as it is properly worked. Recesvinto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.213.251.56 (talk • contribs) 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

FWIW, pretty much all expulsions of the Jews prior to the late 19th century offered the alternative of conversion. Jew-hating was always on a religious basis; it wasn't until the late 19th century, when racialism was in vogue but religious bigotry was getting a bad name, that anyone put this on an ethnic/racial basis. In German, one can see this in the replacement of the word Judenhassen by Antisemitismus. Note: Semitismus suggesting a racial rather than a religious characterization. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I said "unique to", but you are interpreting that as "unique within". "Unique to Spain" means "only Spain had someone like this". We are not disagreeing on this point. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

While saying that Bartolomé de las Casas "can not be worked in several directions", you provide the evidence that it can: advocates of the Black Legend used it as a condemnation of Spain, ignoring its exaggerations and Spanish authorship, while you point to his being Spanish and to his lack of ill treatment and his provoking serious discussion in Spain as showing just the opposite. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Article structure

I thought about dividing the article in two parts:

1. What is the Spanish black legend
2. History of the Spanish black legend

In #1 I wanted to explain what the black legend is and the four main points: inquisition & religious intolerance, conquest of the Americas (treatment of natives and gold), Philip II of Spain and Spanish character (meanness, lack of culture, etc.).

In #2 the idea was to explain how the legend was used and changed along it's history: from Italy to Britain & the Netherlands, to France, the US, South America and finally the rest of the world (including Spain).

At the end a section for the "white legend".

--Ecelan 19:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Ecelan, to be clear: do you propose a reorganisation of the English article into those 3 sections, using the best parts of the Spanish and English articles? If so, I would be happy to assist in editing your text. In case you have not noticed, Jmabel | Talk has problems with the recent treatment of the White Legend part; perhaps you might talk with him as well.--shtove 20:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

New World Spaniard speaks out

Jmabel is a classic example of an apologist for the Black Legend. He convicts himself with his own words. His main concern is the article being "apologist for Spain" (see Shtove). He starts out with an anti-Spanish bias but believes that his view is neutral and therefore sees anyone with a neutral view as pro-Spanish. The Black Legend is so deeply ingrained in the Anglo-Saxon psyche that the typical Anglo-Saxon (and please don’t tell me that you are not Anglo-Saxon or that you are Irish or what-have-you because then we will need to get into a discussion about the cultural differences between hereditary Anglo-Saxons and assimilated Anglo-Saxons) believes that there must be some truth to it. “Where there is smoke there is fire” is how the Anglo-Saxon puts it.

The very first sentence in the Black Legend article betrays this bias. "The Black Legend (in Spanish, leyenda negra) is the excessive depiction of Spain and the Spaniards as bloodthirsty and cruel, greedy and fanatical". Excessive depiction? In other words, the depiction is okay if it is not excessive because then it is factual. That sort of thinking is the very essence of the Black Legend. We are dealing here with an attitude, not just words and sentences and articles and stories and histories.

Jmabel and Shtove need to stop and reflect before removing the definition of the White Legend that I have offered. Lets collaborate and not just simply dismiss my contribution as irrelevant. The definition of the White Legend that I am offering perfectly explains (to me, anyway) the intractable nature of the Black Legend syndrome. 198.65.166.243 04:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC) Anonymous (and for good reason).

Thanks for that. Depiction is a neutral term and probably shouldn't be qualified as excessive (that was my edit); but propaganda forms around a grain of truth, which is admitted in your remarks that there were cruel conquistadors and governors; therefore, to describe the BL as a false depiction (which I think would be your case) is not entirely correct. I put it this way: Not true: the Spanish are bastards - True: some Spanish are bastards - Now, get to the BL bit in between and describe it accurately. It's a tricky introduction to get right, but I think the new first paragraph is balanced (although the following para. about Portugal should go into the body of the article).

My knowledge of the BL is marginal, arising incidentally from my knowledge of Irish 16thC. history - the Armada, Kinsale and all that - which led me to insert the Westward Ho! section (making a point about the reliance of English and American academic historians on BL-influenced work as a factual source); however, I am responsible for the article's one and only footnote. The article needs a complete reorganisation. Maybe the White Legend could have a linked article of its own (I haven't deleted any such material). If you look at the Talk sections preceding this you'll see I've been naively seeking Spanish input. Perhaps you could help.

Since I was raised in Ireland speaking English does that make me assimilated Anglo-Saxon? Perhaps you might remove the beam from your own eye and be more careful with your labellings, before criticising others for their supposed attitudes. Overall, I guess it's difficult to put together an article in neutral terms when the subject matter is essentially non-neutral. Collaboration would be between equals, and I don't have the knowledge to contribute; in fact, the article has introduced me to other aspects of the BL within Spanish-speaking parts of the world. I'm sure there are articles on specific anti-Jewish propaganda that might act as a model - Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or something like that. Plus, it would help if Anonymous had a name - or are there people in the New Fangled World who use that as their name?--shtove 06:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I have only two responses to the anon's remark: (1) The clumsy phrase about "excessive depiction" was not mine, and I agree that it does not belong. (2) Yes, folks, please do see my remarks on Shtove: my concern was with the following sentence: "The supposed existence of a pro-Spanish 'White Legend' is a particularly insidious aspect of the Black Legend in that it purports to bring 'balance' to an imagined 'debate' over the reality, existence, authenticity or accuracy of the defamatory Black Legend." Does our anonymous correspondent consider this NPOV writing? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I will first address the side issue. My reference above was to so-called hyphenated Americans. My mention of Irish was fortuitous but influenced by the fact that Irish Americans are active in Wikipedia as in all aspects of life in the United States. They enjoy a favored status. They are right below Anglo-Saxon Americans in the ethnic hierarchy. They are among the most vocal and active supporters of the Black Legend. I opened up several Wikipedia fronts and made advances on all fronts except one, where I nevertheless declared victory and moved on. The opposition was bold and ferocious. The leadership was Irish-American (hyphenated), Irish American wannabes, assimilated Anglo-Saxon Americans with a paid grievance and an ax to grind.

A separate linked article for the White Legend may be a good way to proceed as suggested by shtove. The White Legend is not comparable to the Black Legend and treating it as comparable or as a counterbalance to the Black Legend has worked to reinforce the Black Legend although it need not do so. My characterization of the White Legend and the other changes and additions that have been made to the article have blunted that reinforcement. Jmabel’s criticism is directed at an older version of my description of the White Legend. How does he feel/think about the newer version, the last paragraph in the introduction? Anonymous 130.94.121.250 05:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree with this. There are two separate issues here. One is simply about Wikipedia style: "thinly disguised, insidious" is simply not NPOV. You want to cite someone authoritative as saying that? Fine. But saying it in the narrative voice of the article is absolutely inappropriate in Wikipedia.

As for "characterizing documented historical facts favorable to Hispanics as exaggerated praise of Hispanics and therefore suspect": are you claiming either that the right-wing in Spain has not basically defended the Spanish Inquisition? Or are you saying that defense is simply "factual"? This was, of course, especially so in the Franco era, which I am old enough to remember well (not sure if you are), but as recently as the turn of the millennium, when the Roman Catholic Church was making a set of apologies for certain aspects of its history, there was significant opposition from the Spanish right to apologizing for the Inquisition. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Just in case I'm misunderstood: (1) this is not a particularly good article as it stands. (2) I have no opinion either way on whether White Legend should be a separate article or part of the same article. (3) I agree that the Black Legend has far more adherents today, and certainly far more in the English-speaking world, than the White Legend, but minimizing the White Legend seems to me to be minimizing, in particular, the semi-fascist ideology that so recently ruled Spain. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The Roman Inquisition is indefensible whether it occurred in Spain, in Portugal or anywhere else in Europe. The White Legend has as many versions as the Black Legend. I will neither praise nor criticize the Franco regime. What I will always do is defend the honor of Spain and of the Spanish people. 19:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.225.52 (talk • contribs) - (UTC)

The Inquisition is indefensible everywhere including the Americas. The NW Spaniard is its last known surviving victim. KnowName 08:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits certainly reduce the prejudice against the White Legend by reducing the most POV phrasing, but the article still claims (without citation) that the very claim of the existence of a "White Legend" is part of the Black Legend. I still doubt the statement, and I would like to see a citation in which someone with a reasonable claim to authority on the topic states this. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Did major edit to White Legend in intro and in its section. Does it pass muster now? KnowName 05:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It's certainly less bad than it was. Still, "Advocates of the Black Legend postulate the existence of a White Legend comparable to the Black Legend in extension, influence and persistence. An easily refuted straw-man White Legend is then invoked as a rhetorical device in discussions concerning the Black Legend," is hardly NPOV writing. It's polemical.

Clearly this is a controversial topic. The only way we will ultimately solve this is to indicate what notable scholars say on the topic, not to somehow come up with the "right opinions" of our own. Right now, I have a lot else at a higher priority than this article, so I'm not taking on this project, but someone should. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:36, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Portugal

For once ([2]), KnowName and I are in complete agreement. These remarks on France may belong somewhere in the article, but the ones on Portugal are very apropos and belong in the lead. The Portuguese-English alliance goes a long way to explain British anti-Spanish propaganda. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Too much talk, not enough...

The discussion page is twice the length of the article - is that good or bad? An inquisition is needed.--shtove 21:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh my goodness!

See there is already a lot of talk on this page, but yowsers! As of now this article is a shameless load of pro-Spanish apologetics! Anyone who can read Las Casas and describe the events he recounts as "excesses" has a serious POV! Babajobu 14:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

• This article is about the Black Legend. It is not about Las Casas. If you believe that what Las Casas wrote is not mostly blatant exaggeration then you believe in the Black Legend. How many Indians did Las Casas say were killed in Hispaniola alone. 30 million? KnowName 14:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The term "excesses" is wildly POV even if you dismiss Las Casas's accounts. Colonialism itself is near universally accepted by scholars as having been characterized by acts of brutality, whether carried out by the British, the French, the Belgians, the Spanish, or whoever. And the Native American population was decimated by colonialism, even taking into account the interbreeding. The numbers of Native Americans dropped precipitously with the arrival of the Spanish. Even if you don't believe this amounts to genocide, to describe as an "excess" is to a adopt a more apologetic tone than 99% of the scholarship on Spanish colonialism in the new world. Reverted. Babajobu 15:21, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If, as you yourself point out, "Colonialism itself is near universally accepted by scholars as having been characterized by acts of brutality" then the use of the word "brutality" is redundant, pro-Black Legend and "savagely" POV in this context. It has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. It has to do with Las Casas' biased characterization of Spanish colonialism which you take as gospel because of your deeply-held, culturally-ingrained belief in the Black Legend. Nobody is arguing that colonialism is not a brutal process. All colonialism is, ancient and modern. Look at Iraq or Palestine today, for two obvious examples. Your statements about the Spanish give you away as a proponent of the Black Legend, however unconscious on your part your advocacy may be. Las Casas' exaggerated descriptions are the bedrock of the Black Legend. Las Casas was a Dominican friar. It was the Dominicans who ran the Roman Catholic Inquisition in Spain. He was running cover for the likes of Tomás de Torquemada, the infamous Inquisitor General. Las Casas was himself an unrepentant slave owner. He argued famously in favor of black slavery. Yes, he defended the Indians who were dying from disease and overwork and rightfully so but for you to take his exaggerations as truth is to play right into the hands of the advocates of the Black Legend. The purpose of the article is to present an unbiased, objective, truthful view of the Black Legend, not to reinforce it or to validate Las Casas' exaggerations which is what you are doing with your edits. Will re-revert. KnowName 04:53, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a wonderfully pithy remark on that in the first sentence of Borges' "El espantoso redentor Lazarus Morell": "En 1517 el Padre Bartolomé de las Casas tuvo mucha lástima de los indios que se extenuaban en los laboriosos infiernos de las minas de oro antillanas, y propuso al emperador Carlos V la importación de negros que se extenuaran en los laboriosos infiernos de las minas de oro antillanas." (Roughly, "In 1517 Father Bartolomé de las Casas took great pit on the Indians who were suffering and dying in the laborious hells of the Antillean gold mines, and proposed to Emperor Charles V the importation of Negroes to suffer and die in the laborious hells of the Antillean gold mines.") Jmabel | Talk 03:23, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I am considering a revision of the Las Casas article under proposed Wikipedia language policy (the so-called two-language rule or TLR) in the case or event of conflict. KnowName 07:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me? You are considering a revision under a "policy" that appears to have been recently and unilaterally created by one person (two if the IP that edited is someone else), has not been discussed, and has garnered no discernable support? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

• Hmm... That's "proposed policy". I read two long discussions. You participated in one of them. I looked and couldn't find any IPs. KnowName 18:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

And a proposed policy that states: "It shall be Wikipedia policy to identify editor cabals engaged in the..." doesn't have a bat's chance in hell of ever being made actual policy. I suggest you stop considering your revision. Babajobu 08:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

• The idea that there are editor cabals out there enrages some editors. I find that amusing. I don't understand the psychology behind the rage. Forget about policy, proposed or otherwise, and forget about the existence or non-existence of cabals. Are you suggesting that I not improve the Las Casas article? KnowName 18:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

We are enraged when you mention "cabal" because you have hit too close to the truth. We can't bear to see someone with the courage to name that which we are to cowardly or too compicit to acknowledge. Yep, go ahead and improve the Las Casas article. If you are brave enough to stare down the powers that stand behind its present form, that is. Weaker men have failed. I wish you luck. Babajobu 18:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

"Colonial brutalities" is not redundant any more than "the brutalities of the Iraq occupation" would be redundant. European colonialism was characterized by many brutalities, but this does not make "colonial" and "brutality" synonyms. I'm not concerned with Las Casas's moral consistencies or inconsistencies, nor am I concerned with proving or disproving the Black Legend. But to describe the "excesses" of Spanish colonialism is to suggest that the enterprise itself was good, but occasionally "took things too far". That may even be true! But we should describe the brutalities of Spanish colonialism as what they were, rather than commenting sympathetically on Spanish colonialism itself. Reverted. Babajobu 08:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone put "abuses" in place of brutalities/excesses, not sure if that was you. I'm fine with that as a compromise. I was going to change it to "violence", and "abuses" is fine, too. Babajobu 08:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you joking?

1. Race versus what? Being Spanish is not a religion, the Spanish are of many religions. Being Spanish is not an ethnicity, the Spanish are of many ethnicities. Being Spanish is not a nationality, the Spanish are of many nationalities. Being Spanish is not a population, the Spanish are of many populations. The Spanish are not geographically confined, the Spanish are everywhere. The Spanish are a self-conscious people. The Spanish share a common ancestry, a common history, a common language, a common culture, a common religion, a common enemy, a common persecution across the centuries, a common Creator. The Spanish are a race!! If you can come up with a better term the g-ds themselves will thank you profusely and perchance.
2. The Duke of Alba link was preserved in spades.
3. The Black Legend is not anti-Spanish propaganda, first, foremost and uniquely? That's a joke. I should be laughing already. KnowName 14:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

For starters, race is a pretty discredited concept, just in general, but insofar as it has any meaning, the Spanish are not racially different from other European Mediterraneans. In no concept of race that I've ever heard of does language, religion, or enemies enter the picture, and if having a common Creator makes a group of people a race, then according to most prevailing theology that would leave exactly one race, the human race: I've never heard a theory that the Spanish were created by a separate deity. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

For starters lets avoid sophistry. I am not talking theory. I am talking reality. We are a race. We are a subrace of the human race. What is it about reality that you do not understand? KnowName 00:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Are Basques and Spanish citizens of Moroccan descent part of the same "race"? Unless you can find a citation from a mainstream source that argues so, please do not reinsert this far-fetched claim? Babajobu 04:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

• When and where did I claim that "Basques and Spanish citizens of Moroccan descent" were "part of the same 'race'"?. Unless you can cite a quote from me to that effect please do not make such an accusation. KnowName 03:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The Basques of northern Spain and Spanish citizens of Moroccan descent are both Spanish, and yet it is patent nonsense to claim that they are of the same race. Therefore, it is also patent nonsense to claim that the Spanish comprise a race. Babajobu 04:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a great deal about reality I don't understand. Reality is an unfathomably large and complex thing.

I stand by my statement that race, at least in its traditional definition, is a pretty discredited concept. Can you show me any statement from a credentialed anthropologist working in the last 50 years who refers to the Spanish as a "race"? That would be an acceptable citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

• Do you deny that African Americans are members of the same black race that inhabits the African continent? Do you deny the existence of a black race? Do blacks deny it? Does anyone deny it? I quoted one definition of race: a people and their descendents. Here is another dictionary definition of race: a group of people having a commom parentage; the descendents collectively of a common ancestry. It may not be "scientific" but it is a perfectly reasonable and legitimate definition. There is no other word that conveys that meaning that I know of. And that is how I use the word. KnowName 03:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Man if Spaniards are a race. Every country's people is a race. This seems fundamentalists and has no sense. This is an encyclopedia, dont come with homemade definitions. We are a mix of a lot people of different origins, thanksr to God (although i dont believe in your God). --Darkmaiki 18:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

May I remind you guys that the word "race" is used rather loosely in English? It's true the Spanish are no race in the narrower (racialist) definition of the term but it's that definition that's discredited.

And the Black Legend is a bundle of prejudice directed both against a religion (Catholicism) as against a culture (Spanish, Mediterraenean, Latin).

Str1977 09:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Revisionism

If the good guys of Spain had their history unfortunately discredited by the bad guys of the UK, then I as a good Belgian could claim that our whereabouts in the Congo were discredited by the bad powers in Europe in order to get access to mineral wealth, and if you don't believe that, how about those poor Germans who suffered under nazi-boots for 12 years, not even knowing that 6 million people were destroyed in their name? This article about "The Black Legend" stinks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.243.60 (talk • contribs) 5 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Mr Unsigned, I guess a Holocaust denier would think that an article on Holocaust denial stinks too, because that is the proper parallel. On the one hand we have historical reality, on the other a invented or amplified version of it. Historical articles (on WP or elsewhere) should be accurate and if there is "organised dissent" it merits an article about this as well. Even if that "dissent" is deeply ingrained in popular prejudice. Str1977 09:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)