Talk:Franz Liszt

Hungarian composer?

Even if the Hungarians stick to this story - Franz Liszt ist of Austrian/German origin (both parents are German speaking Austrians of German origin), he was brought up in German, spent most of his live in the german-western region and was the father-in-law of Richard Wagner (not Hungarian either, as much as I know..:-). Of course he was influenced by the Hungarian folkmusic and livestyle, but he was a German speaking Citizen of the Austrian monarchyItalic text. Also his birthplace - Raiding - is in Austria. So please don't make him a Hungarian....it's jut not true.

Raiding is NOW in Austria, at the time of Liszt's birth it was in Hungary. This issue has been beaten to death so many times on this page I'm astonished it keeps coming back up. One's family ancestry need not determine one's nationality, and in those days there were many German-speaking Hungarians (especially in Liszt's native Burgenland.) Regardless of all the nit-picky fine points and philosophical detours one can take, the only really relevant fact at this point is that in the far vast majority of published writing on Liszt, he is known as a Hungarian composer, sometimes elaborated (correctly) as a Hungarian composer of Austro-German extraction. Wikipedia, as I must exhaustedly state for what seems like the thousandth time, is not the place for "correcting" published sources (even if one is completely and utterly convinced that the sources are ALL WRONG!!!). K. Lásztocska^talk 04:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

"Ferenc" or "Ferencz"?

There is a problem with regard to the spelling of the Hungarian version of Liszt's first name. In the present introduction it is "Ferenc", which is in accordance with the spelling as used by some Hungarian authors of our days. However, in Liszt's Hungarian passport of 1874, as reproduced in: Óváry, Joséf: Ferenc Liszt, Budapest 2003, p.29, the spelling is "Ferencz" instead. On p.28 of Óváry's book there is even a facsimile of a short musical example, signed by Liszt himself as "Liszt Ferencz". At the door at Liszt's apartment at the Royal Academy at Budapest there was a table, as reproduced in: Hamburger, Klara (ed.): Franz Liszt, Beiträge von ungarischen Autoren, Budapest 1984, between p.192 and 193. The first part of the inscription is in Hungarian and the second part in German. In the German part Liszt's name is "Franz Liszt", and in the Hungarian part "Liszt Ferencz". A further example is a caricature of 1876 on the same page. It shows Liszt as "Szt. Liszt Ferencz" ("St. Franz Liszt"), with a long queue of small children in front of him. Below the caricature there is a (somewhat modified) quotation from the Holy Bible: "Engedjétek hozzám jönni a csodagyermekeket, mert övék a jövő zenéjének orzáka." ("Let the tot prodigies come to me, for the kingdom of the music of the future will be theirs.") From my impression, thus the spelling "Ferencz" seems to be a better choice than "Ferenc".85.22.3.32 (talk) 10:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ferenc. Even if the old Hungarian "Ferencz" version was used then, reliable sources today — both Hungarian and English — mention the modern Hungarian "Ferenc" version. Squash Racket (talk) 16:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Liszt is certainly a poor fellow at this place. His personality and his biography are more and more substituted with Alan Walker's collected fantasies and fairy tales again, and now he is not even allowed to have decided between different spellings of his own name. Is it this what is used to be called "objectivity" or "encyclopedia style"?85.22.100.20 (talk) 10:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Good grief, Anonymous Scholar. Did Alan Walker steal your baby blanket in first grade or something? K. Lásztocska^talk 04:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a matter of verifiability and common English usage today. Google Books (English hits as of January 2009):

• "Ferencz Liszt"
• "Ferenc Liszt"

Compare the two numbers. It is encyclopedic though to mention the "Ferencz Liszt" version appeared in his passport/was used in Hungary as the common Hungarian spelling of the name at that time. Please add the references too. Squash Racket (talk) 05:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

An evaluation of the two links strongly supports "Ferencz" as main version of Liszt's historical Hungarian name. This version is used in the newest edition of the Academic American Encyclopedia as well as in Michael Saffle's Guide to Liszt Research.80.144.100.68 (talk) 11:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

And Britannica uses "Ferenc Liszt"... The Liszt Ferenc Society and the Liszt Ferenc Memorial Museum bear these names for a reason.
There are about three times more English hits for the modern version. I repeat: feel free to add it as an archaic version used in Hungary at the time with references. But I don't want to argue anymore, I hope another editor will answer you, if you still have questions. Squash Racket (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

There are Hungarian rules of orthography to settle this. Before 1922, cz was used to write the voiceless alveolar affricate /ts/. The Hungarian Academy of Sciences in its reform of 1922 abolished the use of cz and replaced it with the single letter c. Use of cz was kept in historical family names but not in given names. See Rules of Hungarian Orthography paragraphs 12, 87 and 157.

Thus the standard modern usage is Ferenc. Another example showing both the rule and the exception according to the modern usage is the name of Rákóczi Ferenc. Hollomis (talk) 02:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

So, what else to conclude from this than that Liszt's historical Hungarian first name was "Ferencz" instead of "Ferenc"?85.22.121.162 (talk) 08:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

That references support the other version more. Squash Racket (talk) 08:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is of generally good quality (talk page discussion aside), with clear potential to eventually become a Feature Article. While I am hardly expert on the factual details of Liszt's life and reputation, it seems to present a fairly good picture of his life. The section discussing his reputation and legacy is rightfully tagged for expansion -- there is no 20th-century appreciation, to name an obvious hole. I've made more detailed comments (including suggestions on reducing the article's size) on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 17:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Colored Hearing

It is said that Franz Lizst had synesthesia, or a mixing of the senses.

Who said it? And where and when?85.22.8.251 (talk) 09:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

yes, franz liszt had synesthesia. many other musicians and artists have synesthesia as well. the kind that liszt has is sound color.--Violarulez (talk) 18:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Transcriptions section

Anyone care to translate the German phrase in this paragraph? I feel that a Google translate may not work well here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slapazoid (talk • contribs) 02:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Please have a look at n.33.85.22.127.236 (talk) 10:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

About the life of Liszt

Just to say it would be great if people would help out on the Life of Franz Liszt article. It does need some sections expanded like Liszt in Geneva, Meets Princess von Sayn-Wittgenstein, Failed Marriage Attempt and Threefold life, as well as there been suggestions for new sections. Not much seems to happen to this article, and I've done what I can, so please do help edit Life of Franz Liszt. I think its a vital part of Franz Liszt on Wikipedia. Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 16:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Compositions

I've created two articles about his compositions, Gnomenreigen and Waldesrauschen. It seems like articles about Liszt's compositions are extremely scarce, so I'll try and create some more. -download ׀ sign! 23:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Information related to Life of Franz Liszt

Just to say, if you wish to make major contributions to Life of Franz Liszt, please read the third comment on the discussion page. Where I have added a link showing much information needed for that article. Ross Rhodes (T C) ^Sign! 20:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Questions about Liszt's ethnicity

A sober assessment of Liszt's national origin must take into account the research which consistently establishes his Austro-German ethnicity.

Liszt's ethnic origins have been somewhat obscured by his own preferred identification as a Hungarian, which came from his father Adam Liszt who was apparently the first generation to spell the surname phonetically the Hungarian way instead ot the original German way, List. Some confusion may have arisen from the changing borders--Raiding was western Hungary at the time of Liszt's birth, 1811, but was transferred to the Austrian state of Burgenland after World War 1.

• There may have been an element of career opportunism in Liszt's identification with Hungary despite his apparent lack of any Hungarian forbears or familiarity with the Hungarian language. 88keys4me (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

There may be an element of original research in your interpretation of what the sources say. I don't see any confusion in the changing borders: at the time Burgenland belonged to Hungary. I don't see how it is relevant what happened to the territory after his death.

The article covers both his family's origin (German-speaking serfs migrating to Hungary) and his own nationality (Hungarian) based on reliable, English references. Squash Racket (talk) 05:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was already clear from my statement above that I was giving an opinion on what the sources say and was not trying to present it as a fact. I think it is an idea worth exploring, and that this is the place to do so.88keys4me (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it is potentially confusing as sources invariably refer to Liszt's birthplace as Raiding, Hungary--a place which has not existed for nearly a century.88keys4me (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

At the time (and before that for centuries) it was part of Hungary, so the sources — surprisingly — are correct. Squash Racket (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The sources may be correct that it belonged to Hungary at the time, but the fact that now it isn't Hungary continues to make for ambiguity.88keys4me (talk) 17:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I added the current location of the village. Squash Racket (talk) 11:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That adds some clarity on the issue.88keys4me (talk) 17:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

This issue has been beaten to death in the archives. Liszt was of German ethnicity and Hungarian nationality. Such things were possible in those days. K. Lásztocska^talk 05:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Beaten to death in the archives? Perhaps, but I have found surprisingly little discussion on this subject in many standard biographies. There seems to be a lot of confusion, obfuscation and tendentious nationalistic drivel in many of the sources I have consulted. When I first checked the Liszt page on Wikipedia it described Liszt as having been "born into a family of ethnic Hungarians", which is patently false. Since then it has been changed back and forth--Hungarian, Austro-Hungarian, Hungarian again.88keys4me (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

ALL reliable sources describe him as Hungarian. The fact that his German-speaking great-grandfather moved to Hungary is mentioned in the article already. Squash Racket (talk) 11:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

• ALL "reliable" sources are not reliable, or at least omit information. Liszt was an ultra-Romantic in the Romantic age. He was also a master at showmanship. Posing as a "Magyar" when it was propitious was part of that.88keys4me (talk) 17:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

He was of slovak ethnicity, and the mother tongue was slovak, according to Miroslav Demko. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.227.100.129 (talk) 19:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Miroslav Demko is not a reliable source, it has already been pointed out, see archives. Squash Racket (talk) 04:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I won't meddle with people with an agenda on Wikipedia, but it's clear people with a Hungarian nationalist one have had too much leeway in this article, yes. /Keinstein (talk) 17:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Liszt's technique

Apologies if this has come up already but there is a book called "Famous pianists and their technique" by R. Gerig that goes into quite a bit of depth about Liszt's own teaching method, opinions and practises that might help expand the teaching section beyond the usual. For instance, what he called "la main morte" and his focus on slow practise. It also includes samples of his own five-finger exercises.Blurgezig (talk) 04:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The Musical Works section...

...is a bit biased, I think. "Many of Liszt's results were remarkable." "...a concert piece full of charming melodies." "they show him in much better light than works such as the paraphrase "Gaudeamus igitur"". I don't disagree with these statements, but they sound more like program notes than neutral encyclopaedic material. Fairweather01 (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Expressions like those will be found practically everywhere, even in scholarly publications. In Liszt's case they say that there are huge differences of style between different ones of his works. As such, as it seems, the said expressions include an objective statement with which nobody disagrees. In other words, they include objective truth.217.88.116.126 (talk) 09:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)