Talk:Italian Somalis

Research on Italian Somalians

I appreciate your improvements, Middayexpress. I have done some research on books about the Italian Somalians and I hope you can find there what you need.

About the Catholicism in Somalia, here it is the exact words in the Tripodi book:Il vescovo di Mogadiscio, don Franco Filippini, dichiarava nel 1940 che vi erano circa 40.000 Somali cattolici, frutto del lavoro missionario specialmente nelle aree agricole del Giuba e dell'Uebi Scebeli (my translation: the Bishop of Mogadischu, Franco Filippini, stated in 1940 that there were nearly 40,000 native Somalians of catholic faith, consequence of the missions mainly in the agricultural areas of the rivers Juba and Schebelle). If we add that there were 22,000 Italians in Somalia in that year and the aproximate population of Italian Somalia was calculated in 750,000 (there were no exact census), we have to agree to what writes Tripodi: 62,000 catholics in Italian Somalia (to whom we have to add the temporary Italian troops stationed in forts), or nearly 10% of the total population of 750,000. Of course there are other calculations of the 1940 population of Italian Somalia without the Ogaden, but most scholars agree in the 750,000 - 800,000 range.

I have written that 'The Italian Embassy calculated in 1993 that most Italian colonists used to have illegitimate children with Somali women and this fact has created a group of Italian Somalians with Italian roots, that now amount to nearly 50,000 descendants in all Somalia', because in page 38 Paolo Tripodi wrote the following:L'ambasciatore italiano considerava l'uso del concubinato un serio problema durante gli anni della colonia. Un problema che aveva generato -secondo lui- quasi 50.000 Somali con almeno un nonno o bisnonno italiano negli anni novanta. (my translation: the Italian ambassador believed that the wide practice of concubinage during the colonial years had created the problem that nearly 50,000 Somalians had at least one grandfather or a greatgrandfather Italian during the nineties). To have an idea of something similar, please read this (http://www.camera.it/_dati/leg13/lavori/stampati/sk6000/relazion/5634.htm ) about 15,500 descendants of Italians in Eritrea (I hope you understand Italian) and the related problems for the Italian Parliament.

Sincerely.--DuilioM (talk) 07:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing quotations, DuilioM. Regarding the first statement, the English translation you supplied I think is phrased a little awkwardly, so I've re-written it to read: "The Bishop of Mogadishu, Franco Filippini, declared in 1940 that there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle." In particular, I've dropped the word 'native' because Filippini doesn't mention this. He also doesn't say that 10% of Somalis were Catholics; he just says that 40,000 or so Somalis in the Juba and Shebelle regions were converted to Catholicism. The 10% figure is therefore something of an exagerration and can also be considered a form of original research since the Tripodi source does not mention this.

In addition, I've re-written the 'concubinage' assertion to now read: "The Italian ambassador considered the practice of frequenting concubines to be a serious problem during the colonial period. According to him, by the nineties, this practice had given rise to around 50,000 Somalis with at least one Italian grandfather or greatgrandfather." I think this is much closer to what Tripodi actually writes since he doesn't mention that the concubinage was a 'wide practice'; he just says that the ambassador considered it a problem.

On a related note, I've visited some of the external links you've supplied, and they're fascinating. So thank you again for your efforts. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 02:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Middayexpress. I have found information (and added to the article) about Saba Anglana, a beautiful Italo-somalian who is considered in Italy to be the next "Miriam Makeba". Her songs are very nice (of course, you can understand better than me the song words in the Somali language of Mogadiscio).

Anyway, I have to pinpoint that bishop Filippini declared about native Somalians and NOT included the Italian community, because in the Italian language we say "Somali" or "Italiani" or "Italosomali" (as mixed people) and never include one group in the other. So, Filippini declared ONLY about native Somalians. If we do the math, we can easily get 40,000 + 22,000 = 62,000; that can be rounded to 70,000 if we add the Italian military servicemen (or nearly 10% of the total population of Somalia, that was 750,000 in 1940). It is not an exagerration and/or an original research: it is simple math. So, I have corrected the phrase and I hope you agree.

Finally, I have found a group of old postcards about Italian Somalia, and I am editing it in Common. May be you'll find interesting. Sincerely.--DuilioM (talk) 05:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

While I don't really have a problem with any of your other edits, I must reiterate that it is original research to state that 10% of Somalis were Christian because the Tripodi source does not state this. I can also personally assure you that this most certainly was not the case. There were only a few Christian Somalis at the time, and every last one of them were orphans who were converted and raised by Italian missionaries. They were also strictly found in a few towns in the South. When Filippini, the Bishop of Mogadishu, declared in 1940 that there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle, he was in all likelihood inflating the numbers to make his proselytizing work look all the more productive for the Facists back in his native Italy. Whatever the case, what is certain is that he never put forth a 10% figure. So it is again tantamount to original research to insist that he did. To arrive at that figure even requires new calculations, as can quite clearly be seen above. I've therefore removed it again; please do not reinsert it. Middayexpress (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Middayexpress, you wrote above that ...he was in all likelihood inflating the numbers to make his proselytizing work look all the more productive for the Facists back in his native Italy, but this is really-really-really OR, don't you agree? Where did you get that "he was inflating etc..."? Do you know that it is an offense for a high ranking catholic, like a bishop, to "inflate" proselytizing? --LittleTony (talk) 04:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)