Talk:Federal Reserve: Difference between revisions
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: Ok fine...they can't FULLY audit it. [[User:Werdtoyadonkay|Werdtoyadonkay]] ([[User talk:Werdtoyadonkay|talk]]) 18:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC) |
: Ok fine...they can't FULLY audit it. [[User:Werdtoyadonkay|Werdtoyadonkay]] ([[User talk:Werdtoyadonkay|talk]]) 18:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC) |
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== Constitutionality of the FED == |
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Why is there no mention in the article about the constitutionality of the FED? Namely, a section that gives arguments of why it is constitutional and why it is not constitutional. [[User:The Lamb of God|The Lamb of God]] ([[User talk:The Lamb of God|talk]]) 21:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC) |
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:See [[Criticism of the Federal Reserve]] --[[User:4wajzkd02|4wajzkd02]] ([[User talk:4wajzkd02|talk]]) 21:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:25, 11 December 2009
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Q1: Is the Federal Reserve private or public/governmental?
A1: The Federal Reserve is not one entity but several, and each has its own status in relation to the government. The Board of Governors, which supervises the system, is a federal government agency. The twelve Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned corporations organized under the Federal Reserve Act that have public responsibilities. They are not organized under the laws that govern other private corporations, such as for-profit businesses. Q2: Who owns the Federal Reserve?
A2: There are multiple answers depending on which part of the Federal Reserve is meant.
Q3: Does the court case Lewis v. United States (1982) prove that the Fed is a private bank?
A3: Lewis v. United States held that a man injured by a Federal Reserve Bank's vehicle could not sue the federal government for damages. The court decided that for the purpose of a tort claim, the Reserve Bank was not a federal agency, because the government did not control its detailed activities and day-to-day operations. The decision noted that in other cases, for other legal purposes, courts have treated Reserve Banks as government-affiliated entities. Q4: Why is the structure of the Federal Reserve so complicated?
A4: The structure reflects the development of the Federal Reserve over time from a regional system into a de facto centralized system. The original Federal Reserve Act provided for banks to cooperate with each other and the government on a regional basis to meet credit demands. This was intended to prevent banks in more commercial parts of the country from dominating others. Each Federal Reserve Bank managed credit within its region, while the Board carried out regulatory and policy functions. (House Report 69 (1913), pp. 17–19). The Banking Act of 1935 increased the authority of the Board and the status of the Reserve Bank of New York, while reducing the role of the other Reserve Banks. Q5: Does the Federal Reserve have a connection with federal income tax?
A5: Yes. The Federal Reserve Act and the first "modern" income tax were both enacted in late 1913 by Woodrow Wilson, who saw them as ways to strengthen the federal government against the large business interests of the time. Although they were enacted around the same time, each proposal had its own separate political history. Additionally, the Federal Reserve processes payments for the federal government. Therefore, any payment to the US Treasury (including income tax) is eventually deposited to the Treasury's account at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and becomes part of the government's operating cash. Q6: Does the Federal Reserve have a connection with the national debt?
A6: Yes. The Federal Reserve Banks are significant owners of federal debt securities, about $5.6 trillion or 18% of the debt as of June 2022. They draw part of their income from these holdings, which they use to pay their expenses and dividends before remitting their earnings to the Treasury. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York also conducts (but does not participate in) auctions of new federal debt securities. Fiscal policy — how the government raises and spends money — is decided by Congress, not by the Federal Reserve. Q7: Did Woodrow Wilson regret creating the Fed?
A7: No. A supposed regretful quote from him ("I am a most unhappy man...") is assembled from words that he said and wrote, but not about creating the Fed. See the Wikiquote page for Wilson. Q8: I have a book/web site/video that contradicts these answers.
A8: Works claiming that the Federal Reserve is the creation of a sinister banker conspiracy have been raised here many times before. There are separate articles about writers and works that make such claims, like G. Edward Griffin and America: Freedom to Fascism. However, they are not mentioned in this article, because they are not widely acknowledged among authors who write about the Fed, even to criticize it. Wikipedia aims to fairly represent the significant points of view on a subject but not to promote fringe theories held by a tiny minority of adherents. Q9: Where can I find more answers about the Federal Reserve?
A9: The Board of Governors has its own frequently asked questions list. |
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Wilson quote (again)
I've reverted the recent addition of a quote attributed to Wilson. This is not a single quote, but several quotes stitched together to create a certain impression. See the discussion on the Federal Reserve Act talk page and on Wikiquote [1]. Ravensfire (talk) 04:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Humorously, an IP just added the quote again, sourcing it to a Salon.com article [2]. This article DEBUNKS the quote, showing it to be false. So our editor added a fake quote with a source, but the source actually disproves the quote! Ravensfire (talk) 16:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it helps to read the material that is being used as a source. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone cite a source for some sort of fake quote or some goofball proposition where the source contradicts the proposition, etc. Famspear (talk) 19:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- When I see this sort of thing I wonder to what extent this is carelessness/ignorance on the part of the person trying to introduce the dodgy material and to what extent it is a cynical attempt to deceive others who might not look at it closely. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- For most, I think it's the former. They see it on an anti-Fed site, and take it as The Truth. Others know the story behind it, but ignore it so they can twist words to say what they want. The worst ones are those that defend it, even when they know the history. I've got a few links that dispel the quote, and have them bookmarked for future uses of "the quote". Ravensfire (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The Federal Reserve System and the term "agency"
The Federal Reserve System may or may not constitute an "agency" under federal law. The cited source in the article does not state that the SYSTEM is an "agency." The source states that the Board of Governors (which is only part of the system) is an "agency." Let's keep this precise. The System consists of many components, some of which are indeed government agencies and others of which are not. As the opponents of the Federal Reserve System so frequently complain, some parts of the System are indeed "private" (i.e., non-governmental), such as the member banks. If we can find a reliable source that states that the entire system is a government "agency," then fine. But let's stick to what the sources say. Famspear (talk) 04:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Power to print money was removed from the US Constiution.
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The power to print paper money (Bills of Credit) was removed from the final version of the US Constitution during the Constitutional Convention that drafted the Constitution as too subject to abuse. That removal was on a vote of 9 to 2. As the power to print money was taken away from the Federal government (it was included as a power in the Articles of Confederation and early drafts of the US Constitution), the Federal government does not have the power to print money. Congress CANNOT transfer a power it does not have to a third party like the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve istherefore an unconstitutional body. To meet objections of original research see link to something written 150 years ago. I HOPE nobody here thinks I am over 150 ears old. http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html
"Mr. Butler, 2ds. the motion." "Mr. Madison, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best." "Mr. Govr. Morris. striking out the words will leave room for notes of a responsible minister which will do all the good without the mischief. The monied interest will oppose the plan of Government, if paper emissions be not prohibited." "Mr. Ghorum was for striking out, without inserting any prohibition. if the words stand they may suggest and lead to the measure." "Col. Mason had doubts on the subject. Congs. he thought would not have the power unless it were expressed. Though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet as he could not foresee all emergencies, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature. He observed that the late war could not have been carried on, had such a prohibition existed." "Mr. Ghorum. The power as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing." "Mr. Mercer was a friend to paper money, though in the present state & temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. He was consequently opposed to a prohibition of it altogether. It will stamp suspicion on the Government to deny it a discretion on this point. It was impolitic also to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. The people of property would be sure to be on the side of the plan, and it was impolitic to purchase their further attachment with the loss of the opposite class of Citizens." "Mr. Ellsworth thought this a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money. The mischiefs of the various experiments which had been made, were now fresh in the public mind and had excited the disgust of all the respectable part of America. By witholding the power from the new Governt. more friends of influence would be gained to it than by almost any thing else. Paper money can in no case be necessary. Give the Government credit, and other resources will offer. The power may do harm, never good." "Mr. Randolph, notwithstanding his antipathy to paper money, could not agree to strike out the words, as he could not foresee all the occasions which might arise." "Mr. Wilson. It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the United States to remove the possibility of paper money. This expedient can never succeed whilst its mischiefs are remembered, and as long as it can be resorted to, it will be a bar to other resources." "Mr. Butler. remarked that paper money was a legal tender in no Country in Europe. He was urgent for disarming the Government of such power." "Mr. Mason was still adverse to tying the hands of the Legislature altogether. If there was no example in Europe as just remarked, it might be observed on the other side, that there was none in which the Government was restrained on this head." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "Mr. Langdon had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words '(and emit bills)'" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.131.111 (talk) 13:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC) Printing Money addition by User:96.237.134.44 / User:96.237.131.111
Cites supporting my position - showing it is not OR or SYNI believe that Congress does NOT have the power to make paper money a legal tender and does not even have the power to make gold and silver a legal tender.The reference below show clearly that at least one US president and Funding Father agree with me on both counts and that at least two US presidents, and Founding Fathers agree with me on one count. I hope that claims of original research and synthesis can now be put to rest as BOGUS.
James Madison - Thus the pretext for a paper currency and particularly for making the bill a legal tender, either for public or private debt, was cut off Thomas Jefferson - I now deny their (Congress's) power of making paper money, or anything else, a legal tender A Mr Benton who is also cited, states: The power granted to Congress to coin money is an authority to stamp metallic money, and is not an authority for emitting slips of paper containing promises to pay money. Per Yale Law School records of the minutes of the vote to TAKE AWAY from Congress the power to "emit bills of credit" during the Constitutional Convention as recorded by Founding Father and future president James Madison http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_816.asp
and
My aside: The power to be struck out was the power to "emit". Mr. Ghorum, (Madison misspelled the name - the person is actually Nathanial Gorham) states that if the words stand (the words being "emit bills of credit") that "they may suggest and lead to the measure" with the measure being printing legal tender paper money. To be ABSOLUTELY clear, this vote denied Congress the power to "emit" per money, and strikes at the core of arguments in favor of paper money, because Congress cannot make paper money a legal tender because the power to print paper money was REMOVED from Congress. If Congress cannot even print paper money, how can it make it legal tender? In Federalist 44 - Madison states
From Craig v Misouri The whole was intended to exclude everything from use as a circulating medium except gold and silver, and to give to the United States the exclusive control over the coining and valuing of the metallic medium. That the real dollar may represent property, and not the shadow of it. From the dissenting opinion to one of the Legal Tender cases http://supreme.justia.com/us/79/457/case.html - starts with THE CHIEF JUSTICE, dissenting Acts of Congress not made in pursuance of the Constitution are not laws. We perceive no connection between the express power to coin money and the inference that the government may, in any contingency, make its securities perform the functions of coined money, as a legal tender in payment of debts It is unnecessary to say that we reject wholly the doctrine, advanced for the first time, we believe, in this Court by the present majority that the legislature has any "powers under the Constitution which grow out of the aggregate of powers conferred upon the government or out of the sovereignty instituted by it." If this proposition be admitted, and it be also admitted that the legislature is the sole judge of the necessity for the exercise of such powers, the government becomes practically absolute and unlimited. It is true that notes issued by banks, both in England and America, were then in circulation and were used in exchanges, and in common speech called money, and that bills of credit, issued both by Congress and by the states, had been recently in circulation under the same general name; but these notes and bills were never regarded as real money, but were always treated as its representatives only, and were described as currency. The legal tender notes themselves do not purport to be anything else than promises to pay money. They have been held to be securities, and therefore exempt from state taxation, [Footnote 3/13] and the idea that it was ever designed to make such notes a standard of value by the framers of the Constitution is wholly new. The sense of the Convention which framed the Constitution is clear from the account given by Mr. Madison of what took place when the power to emit bills of credit was stricken from the reported draft. He says distinctly that he acquiesced in the motion to strike out because the government would not be disabled thereby from the use of public notes, so far as they would be safe and proper, while it cut off the pretext for a paper currency, and particularly for making the bills a tender either for public or private debts. [Footnote 3/14] The whole discussion upon bills of credit proves beyond all possible question that the Convention regarded the power to make notes a legal tender as absolutely excluded from the Constitution. [Footnote 3/15]' but he added, "NOTHING BUT GOLD AND SILVER COIN CAN BE MADE A TENDER IN PAYMENT OF DEBTS." [Footnote 4/68] Utterances of the kind are found throughout the reported decisions of this Court, but there is not a sentence or word to be found within those volumes, from the organization of the court to the passage of the acts of Congress in question, to support the opposite theory. Excellent source states - http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.142.108 (talk) 13:34, 24 November 2009 (UTC) |
4wajzkd02 - being CIVIL
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I is not CIVIL to jump to the conclusion that the discussion is over and that a Consensus has been reached since a Consensus most certainly has NOT been reached. Also: Despite your 3RR warning to me, I now point out that you are yourself in violation of 3RR. Since you ALSO deleted the material in question as Original Research please read the material I have added above and the material copied below from my talk page which you may have missed. Since I have other things to do I will look at your responses tomorrow. In order to avoid 3RR violation I advise you to restore the material you deleted on the obviously wrong conclusion that the material in question is original research. Unless you believe that I am Mr. Withers, who died in 1866, I did not originate the concept that striping the power to print legal tender paper money from the US Constitution strips Congress of that power. Material below is copied from my talk page. You seem confused The primary material in question is the "minutes of the debate" provided as a supplement to the conclusion reached by Mr. Withers. As to whether Mr. Withers contradicts what I added to the article, I believe that you actually need to read what Mr Withers wrote http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Please do not confuse what I wrote with what he wrote, despite the similarities HE wrote ALL the following - pay special attention to the bold sections Now, observe, according to the "draft" Congress was to be empowered to "coin money" and "emit bills of credit"--i. e., a paper currency, undoubtedly. Were they the same or equivalent things, in the contemplation of the convention? If so, why specify both? That body knew how to use the English language, and were not given to tautology. The States were prohibited to make anything but "specie" a legal tender without the consent of Congress. The scheme is manifest that proceeded from the brain of the Committee of Five. It was this: Congress alone should issue a paper currency, and the States should be confined, as to a legal tender, to specie, and that alone, unless Congress should "emit bills of credit;" and in that case, the States might, had Congress authorized it, not that they should, make the Federal "bills of credit" a legal tender. But not even by this scheme, as it came from the committee, was Congress empowered to declare what should be a legal tender in payment of debts. But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc.96.237.134.44 (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)96.237.134.44 (talk) 00:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&aq=f&aqi=&oq=Is+the+Federal+reserve+unconstitutional&fp=1c443ffcb5a5cce196.237.134.44 (talk) 11:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
96.237.134.44 (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC) |
wiki aleady recognizes critique of unconstitutionality
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Yesterday I provided this link to show that the unconstitutional critique of the Federal Reserve is current and ongoing I am now pointing out that the VERY FIRST link provided in that google search is to a wiki article. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_Federal_Reserve_unconstitutional wiki already recognizes that the critique is current and ongoing.96.237.134.44 (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
(<-) reverted re-addition of this materiel per WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
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Material in dispute - what citations are bad and why? Please be specific.
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The Federal Reserve also faces criticism of being an unconstitutional and therefore illegal body - ref is http://immortalityroad.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/ron-paul-says-that-federal-reserve-bank-is-unconstitutional/ Congressman Ron Paul "The Federal Reserve System is not a part of our federal government, and there is no reserve of real money (gold and silver), and it is not constitutional." and and http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/09/24/the-federal-reserve-vs-the-constitution/ Congressman Ron Paul "Congress created the Federal Reserve, yet it had no constitutional authority to do so." The criticism over its constitutionality take two forms, one being that Congress cannot transfer a Federal power to a private nongovernmental entity and the other is that Congress cannot exercise a power it does not have, never mind assigning that nonexistent power to a private nongovernmental entity. The power in dispute is the power to issue legal tender paper money, called bills of credit by the Founding Fathers ref is http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b099.htm "Bills of credit may be defined to be paper issued and intended to circulate through the community for its ordinary purposes as money redeemable at a future day." . The criticism that Congress does not have the power to issue paper money is based on the fact that language authorizing this power was removed ref is http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Robert G. Natleson Paper Money and the Original Understanding of the Coinage Clause page 38 - All those who voted to retain the language believed that deleting the language would delete the power from early drafts ref is an early draft of the Constitution http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/draft.html The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to coin money; To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States; of the US Constitution as too subject to abuse ref is (this cite should be placed a bit earlier - my mistke) http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/witherst/witherst.html Thomas Jefferson Withers - But soon afterward Congress was shorn of the power to make a paper currency, or to allow a State to use such a currency, made by any authority whatever, as a legal tender. To the proof: "August 16.--It was moved and seconded to strike the words 'and emit bills,' out of the 8th clause of the first section of the 7th article--which passed in the affirmative"--nine states aye--two (New Jersey and Maryland) nay. Thus the clause read (as it now reads in the Constitution of the United States and in our own) " to borrow money on the credit," etc. and http://www.angelfire.com/ut2/lrtopham/convention.html "Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out 'and emit bills on the credit of the United States' If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary: if they had not, unjust & useless." "Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations" "On the motion for striking out N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay.* N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay." and the belief that the exercise of a power not granted to Congress, is a violation of the Tenth Amendment, which states that powers not granted to the Federal government are retained by either the states or by the people ref is http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The power "to Coin" and the power to "emit bills of credit" are listed as separate powers within the Article 1 Section 10 of the US Constitution "No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit;" and only the power "to coin" remains as a granted power after the delegates at the Constitutional Convention voted to remove the power to "emit bills of credit". "The Congress shall have Power To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" ref is the US Constitution http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html.
96.237.134.44 (talk) 00:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Synthesis implies I am coming to an original conclusion. That is in fact not the case. The "excellent source" states others share my point of view and for the same reasons. on Mr. Withers - The constitutionality of paper money is a current issue - see the "excellent source" below as well as continuing attempts by Ron Paul to kill the Fed though Congressional action. on text from the US Constitution - either early draft or final version - it is acceptable to provide section of a historical document to supplement other sources - for clarity f nothing else. If this is not allowed, then the article on the Bill of Rights cannot have a listing of the Bill of Rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights That article not only includes constitutional language but a link to am image of the Bill of Rights. Your point of view is therefore contrary to current wiki practice.96.237.134.44 (talk) 01:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC) Missed angelfire.com - that link is to a text of the minutes of the vote in question. I have already offered to provide another link to that text. The "excellent source" has the exact same text of the vote. I have no objection to using that or any of a thousand other places where that text exists.96.237.134.44 (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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"Excellent Source" states
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http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/documents/Papermoneyart.pdf Direct quote from the Abstract "Over a century ago, the Supreme Court decided the Legal Tender Cases, holding that Congress could authorize legal tender paper money in addition to metallic coin. In recent years some commentators have argued with this holding may have been incorrect" Direct quote from page 4 of that "excellent" source "In the later half of the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court decided a series of cases that upheld the power of Congress to issue paper money and make it legal tender for all debts. Although the last of these was decided in 1884 several constituencies have kept this debate alive. One of those constituencies is a small, but vocal group that has never been reconciled to the idea of American paper money. These folks maintain that the Constitution did not authorize paper money ... More Influential, perhaps, have been legal commentators who agree that he Legal Tender cases were, from an originalist point of view, wrongly decided" 96.237.134.44 (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
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"Ownership"
Despite prior consensus being documented in this article's FAQ, an editor (67.249.74.255 (talk)) has been edit warring ([7],[8],[9],[10] ) to state:
However, in Lewis v. United States (1982) [1], it was ruled that the Federal Reserve is privately owned. In particular, neither the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks are owned by the US Federal Government.
I have left notices regarding the policy for WP:3RR on the editor's talk page, and encouraged said editor to gain WP:CONSENSUS here before adding the text again, per WP:BRD. --4wajzkd02 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Some links for our IP editor to previous discussions on this: [11], [12], [13]
- And that's just from part of the first archive. The answers there go into detail about the ownership question, so I'll let the IP read through them. Ravensfire (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed my addition to a direct quote from the court case. There's no more disputing my first entries because I have changed them and should be a seperate issue and not count toward my initial warnings.
(talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
- Thanks for coming to discuss, but please read WP:3RR - you misunderstand edit warring, I'm afraid. "not count toward my initial warnings" - reverting is not an entitlement. Regarding the court case, also please be careful with original research and synthesis - Wikipedia does not use original sources, but rather reports what secondary sources have to say on issues (assuming the sources are reliable and that the issue is not given undue weight. Finally, I encourage you to read the references provided above regarding prior discussions on this topic. The issue of "ownership" is more subtle and involved than your edit provides. --4wajzkd02 (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Lewis v. United States 1982
In Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982). the court stated "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purpose of the FTCA, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.”
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Lewis_v_US.htm http://www.nesara.org/court_summaries/lewis_v_united_states.htm
I inserted a quote from a court case. This is NON DISPUTABLE. How can ypu dispute a quote from the court? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.74.255 (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Did you read any of the discussions linked just above this, in a section about your posts? I don't think so, so I ask you to read them, as they answer your question in detail. It's not the first time that's been asked. Ravensfire (talk) 00:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. You cannot dispute a quote. A quote is a quote. Period. 67.249.74.255 (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Such a response! So kindly show me where, in that quote, it says that Board of Governors, or Open Market Committee are private, please. Alas, it doesn't. IP, you need to read those discussions. Your question is answered in there, so I will not post further here. Ravensfire (talk) 00:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- (Edit Conflict) "You cannot dispute a quote. A quote is a quote." See my response in the prior question, and Ravensfire's posted links. Your statement is incorrect. There are many, many circumstances in which a quote is insufficient for an addition to an article. Prior discussions (previously linked) do just that. I'll further state that changing your addition does not change the rules of WP:3RR, either - further reinsertions on your part without WP:CONSENSUS (which will require thoughtful review of prior art and insightful comment, not argument) will lead to sanctions for disruption. I've avoided reporting you to the edit warring notice board as you appear to be a new user who is unfamiliar with the process. As this is a sometimes contentious article, and draws new users with strong opinions, the intention is to be civil and helpful. But you do need to do your part. Please read the linked policies and discussion threads provided. There is no WP:DEADLINE in Wikipedia, so there should be no rush for you to "hurry and get your edits inserted". Thank you, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Not to belabor the point, but since, as the IP says, a quote is a quote, let me quote from the article, from the lede of the article to be exact. "Twelve regional privately-owned Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation". I've bolded the parts that are of interest here. Ravensfire (talk) 00:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh good, so then you admit they are private. Werdtoyadonkay (talk) 01:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Werdtoyadonkay: Look, we've been through this a gazillion times on these talk pages over the years. Here is the original offending material this time:
- However, in Lewis v. United States (1982) it was ruled that the Federal Reserve is privately owned. In particular, neither the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks are owned by the US Federal Government.
- Obviously, the Court in Lewis never stated or ruled that the "Federal Reserve" is privately owned. Indeed, that would be nonsensical, since the Federal Reserve System includes both governmental and non-governmental components, as already noted in the article.
- Re-read the quote from Lewis. The Court in Lewis was referring to a specific Federal Reserve Bank (I think it was the San Francisco bank). The term "Federal Reserve" means the Federal Reserve SYSTEM -- not an individual Federal Reserve Bank.
- Also, the Court in Lewis did not rule that neither the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks are owned by the US Federal Government. Re-read the quote from Lewis.
- The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco is a COMPONENT of the Federal Reserve System (it is nominally privately owned, but not privately owned in the sense that you can own and sell a share of stock in ExxonMobil or Microsoft). Wells Fargo Bank is a COMPONENT of the Federal Reserve System (and Wells Fargo is privately owned -- in the sense that owning a share of Wells Fargo is indeed like owning a share of ExxonMobil or Microsoft). The Board of Governors is a COMPONENT of the Federal Reserve System (it's a government entity). The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) is a COMPONENT of the Federal Reserve System (and the FOMC is another governmental entity). NONE OF THESE ENTITIES -- by themselves -- is "the Federal Reserve." Each is only PART of the Federal Reserve.
- Similarly, "Baton Rouge" is not "Louisiana." Yes, Baton Rouge is located within Louisiana. It's a part of Louisiana. Baton Rouge is a CITY. That does not mean that "Louisiana" is a "city." The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco is not "the Federal Reserve." Yes, the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco is a PART of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco is a BANK. The "Federal Reserve" -- that is, the SYSTEM -- is not "a bank." It's a central banking SYSTEM, and it's composed of "privately owned" banks (like Wells Fargo) and quasi-privately owned banks (like the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco) and government entities (like the Board of Governors).
- The statement that the "Federal Reserve" is "privately-owned" is meaningless gibberish. Famspear (talk) 02:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
If it's not private then why can't the government audit it? Seems pretty private to me. Common sense. 67.249.74.255 (talk) 15:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Per WP:ASF, "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves". The facts, as documented in the aforementioned links, and as explained above, show that the "Federal Reserve System" is comprised of both private and non-private components. Your assertion that because "the government [can't] audit it" (an issue subject to current legislation), the entire "Federal Reserve System" is private, is an example of synthesis, the policy about which cautions "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". I'm hopeful you understand the issue, now (that the System is comprised of both public and private parts), and that you'll not mistake "common sense" for verifiability in the future.
- IP, it's actually false that the government can't audit the Federal Reserve System or the Federal Reserve Banks. From it's inception in 1913, there have been audits [14]. A bill passed in 1978 specifically allows the GAO to audit the Fed. [15]. The caveat to this (and this is where many anti-fed sites get the "never been audited") is there have always been exceptions to what can be audited (see my first link for a list of the current major exceptions). Since you're almost certainly aware of it, Ron Paul has been proposing for years a bill that would remove most of those exceptions. This year's version is the Federal Reserve Transparency Act - the article on the Act has some good details on it. A recent development is that Paul and Grayson got an amendment with similar provisions to the FRTA added to a major bill in the House. Nothing in the Senate yet though. Take a look through the FRTA article, and the two links - should give you some more info about the audits.
- Oh, and the indenting that 4wajzkd02 is talking about really helps make the take page easier to read. It's a help to everyone if you wouldn't mind using indents! Ravensfire (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Ok fine...they can't FULLY audit it. Werdtoyadonkay (talk) 18:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Lewis v. United States http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html