Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 23

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Elvis Presley bad in bed?

There is a recent Playboy article by Byron Raphael and Alanna Nash, entitled "In Bed With Elvis" (November 2005). In it, Byron Raphael, who worked for Elvis in 1956-57, claims that a string of famous beauties told him that what happened behind closed doors wasn't as steamy, or as normal as Elvis fans would think. The singer seems to have been a complete failure in bed. It is stated, for instance, that Natalie Wood went straight into Elvis's bedroom and 20 minutes later she came out, huffing and puffing that Elvis did not want to consumate the act. The same article also deals with the innuendo that "tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams (i.e. Nick Adams) were getting it on." I don't know how reliable this article is. It should be mentioned that Alanna Nash, its co-author, according to User:Ted Wilkes, is a reliable source. However, Elvis fans and authors writing in the vein of the world-wide Elvis industry seem to denigrate this article. Onefortyone 02:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, 141, I for one don't care if Elvis was good in bed, bad in bed, or had sex with boys or sheep. I also don't care about the sex lives (or lack thereof) of Beethoven, Napoleon or Dubya. Perhaps this is a failing on my part, or perhaps their music and politics are more important. For you, the intimate (more or less) secrets of or tittle-tattle about celebrities great and small seem to be of huge interest, but here on Wikipedia a lot of your undeniable energy is likely to be spent battling with Wyss, Ted Wilkes, and others. Have you considered a "141pedia"? This could be devoted to allegations about the sex lives (or lack thereof), drug intake, physical decline, etc., of figures in American pop culture. You could really enjoy yourself there! -- Hoary 02:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I think Elvis's sex life is of much importance, as the mass media and the Wikipedia article describe the star as a sex symbol who had a string of girlfriends. In fact, the opposite seems to have been the case. In my opinion, this must be mentioned somehow. Onefortyone 12:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

As usual, discredited User:Onefortyone/Anon 80.141 et al quotes out of context and distorts facts. Alanna Nash never made any such statements, she only writes that Raphael made unsubstantiated claims. While I don’t read Playboy, the website for MSNC.com says that "According to Raphael, Presley was scared of gays and lesbians." Then it says that Raphael is quoted: "I loved Elvis and I loved my time with him. The things that I had to say are true and I don't think they tear him down. I think it shows — not so much a darker side of him — but just how innocent he was compared to this image that he had. He was not some wild rock-and-roller. He was a very sweet and shy young guy." - Ted Wilkes 22:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Ted, Alanna Nash is co-author of the Playboy article. Raphael claims "Elvis seldom went all the way," and further claimed this was because "he always remembered his mother teaching him that "sex before marriage was a sin." It should be noted that, according to a recent critic, much of the end of this Playboy story comes straight out of Alanna Nash's book, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia, which she wrote with Lamar Fike, Marty Lacker and Billy Smith. Here is another comment on the Playboy article:

... I read a rather interesting article in the new issue of Playboy. It’s entitled, 'In Bed With Elvis', by Byron Raphael and Alanna Nash. Byron was a member of Elvis’ entourage back in the late 50's and on into the 70's. He tells stories about Elvis’ sex life and what kinds of women he’d want to bed. It was partially Byron’s job to find the right kinds of women the King liked, invite them to parties at the suite, inspect them for flaws like inverted nipples, teach them how to turn the Pelvis on, (he’d have them give him head), then send them on into the master suite where Big E would be waiting. He writes that while Elvis was well endowed he hardly ever actually had intercourse with the women or girls. He preferred getting blow jobs or hand jobs to actual sex. This supposedly was for two reasons; Elvis was uncircumcised and was afraid of tearing his foreskin, and he had been taught by his Mother to wait for marriage. How nice. He also tells the tale of how Elvis attempted to seduce and bed Natalie Wood. Evidently she only stayed in the Kings bedroom for a few minutes then stormed out asking Raphael, “What’s the matter with your boss? Doesn’t he know how to screw?” According to Byron, he ended up doing Wood right there on the couch so she wouldn’t go away unsatisfied. It was an interesting read, if it’s true...

For the complete Playboy article, see [1]. In it, the authors say,

... the so-called dangerous rock-and-roll idol was anything but a despotic ruler in the bedroom. Though Elvis described his sexual appetites as voracious — he’d say, “I like it hot and heavy, Byron the Siren, hot and heavy” — he really wasn’t all that keen on doing the wild thing. He was far more interested in heavy petting and panting and groaning.

On another occasion, Raphael remembered a girl

saying. “Take me! Take me!” That wasn’t going to happen. Elvis rolled over, and they rubbed against each other some more, Elvis moaning. “It’s good, sweetness. It’s good.” But he would never put himself inside one of these girls. Within minutes he’d be asleep, and often the girl would still be rubbing herself against him. I’d step in and say, “It’s time to go now, honey. Elvis needs to sleep. He’s got another show.” And I’d peel her off him. Girls would come out of his bedroom in tears, crying, “Elvis wouldn’t take my virginity! He said to wait until my wedding night!” Or they’d get hysterical, whining, “Elvis doesn’t love me!”

Here is the passage concerning Elvis's alleged homosexuality:

Wood was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys might be homosexual, especially since Elvis often wore pancake makeup and mascara offstage to accentuate his brooding intensity, a la Tony Curtis and Rudolph Valentino, his favorite movie actors. There were also rumors that Nick Adams swung both ways, just as there had been about Adams’s good pal (and Elvis’s idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on. But Elvis was frightened of homosexuals; the Colonel had told him to be on the lookout for them in Hollywood. He was even scared of Lizabeth Scott, the icy blonde who played romantic scenes with him in 1957’s Loving You, since Confidential magazine had recently outed her as a lesbian with a busy little black book.

As at that time most people were of the opinion that homosexuality was immoral and violated the law, it is understandable that Elvis might have tried to repress any feelings of that kind. However, there is some evidence that he had a sexual affair with his gay friend Nick Adams. Onefortyone 17:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It should also be noted that, according to modern psychology, an irrational fear of homosexuality is a result of the "homophobic's" own homosexual urges:

Internalized homophobia (or ego-dystonic homophobia) usually refers to homophobia as a prejudice carried by homosexuals against themselves and others like them. It includes a discomfort with or disapproval of one's own sexual orientation. Such a situation may cause extreme repression of homosexual desires. In other cases, a conscious internal struggle may occur for some time, often pitting deeply held religious or social beliefs against strong emotional desires and needs. This discordance often causes clinical depression...

A component considered to play into homophobia ... is an individual's fear of being identified as homosexual him or herself. This notion suggests that when expressing homophobic viewpoints and emotions, the individual who does so is not only expressing his thoughts as to homosexuals, but also actively attempting to distance himself from this category and attributed social status. Therefore, by distancing him or herself from the people in question, he/she is reaffirming his/her role as a heterosexual, within heteronormativity, and contributing to the avoidance of his/her potential labelling and consequent treatment as a homosexual.

See Homophobia#Internalized_homophobia and Homophobia#Fear_of_being_identified_as_a_homosexual.

Interestingly, in her book, The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley, Alanna Nash writes (p. 153) that "Parker scared Elvis away from would-be advisors by insinuating they were homosexual." On p. 167, this reputed Elvis expert adds that Elvis's manager Parker "had a certain type in mind for someone he would name as his assistant: small, young, male, quiet, and probably homosexual, someone who was easy to dominate and control, and had no marital problems." This is very similar to David Bret's statement in the introduction to his book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years, that

at least two accounts of Elvis's 'friendship' with Nick Adams were sold to scandal-rags during the paranoic moral mid-fifties. These stories were bought back by his manager in an attempt to keep the wholesome Presley image intact, also allowing the controlling force, 'Colonel' Tom Parker, to manipulate Elvis for another twenty years. Parker knew only too well that, had a story hit the press implying that Elvis had so much as associated with a wildly promiscuous homosexual ... not only would Elvis's career have ended abruptly, so too would have Parker's seemingly limitless source of income.

Significantly, in the recent Playboy article, Byron Raphael and Alanna Nash now confirm that Natalie Wood "was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys might be homosexual" and that there were rumors about an affair between Elvis and Nick Adams (see quote above). Onefortyone 21:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Daniel Rancour-Laferriere, in his peer-reviewed book Self-Analysis in Literary Study: Exploring Hidden Agendas (1994), mentions that "Albert Goldman (1981) hypothesized about homoeroticism in the gentile male icon Elvis Presley." (p. 160) So there seem to be several claims, not only by David Bret, Dee Presley and Earl Greenwood (see [2]), that Elvis might have had homosexual leanings. Onefortyone 23:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually there is no proof that Elvis was involved in homosexual activities. Other than a piece in the Enquirer and a non-published manuscript written by someone who had very little credibility there is no evidence that Elvis had ever had a homosexual encounter. Indeed, given all the salacious information that has been leaked about the man, if he had such a relationship it would have come out by now. You're also quoting a book out of context which is something that you seem to do a lot. I thought we already had this discussion before with onefortyone and I believe the consensus was that you should stop posting on this issue. It's muckracking at it's most obvious. Lochdale

You said, "Other than a piece in the Enquirer and a non-published manuscript written by someone who had very little credibility there is no evidence that Elvis had ever had a homosexual encounter." This is not true. You are only referring to some accusations by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, but you do not mention other sources such as published books by David Bret and Earl Greenwood which include similar claims. These sources have already been discussed, that's true. Therefore, I have now provided some aditional sources (see above) which undoubtedly prove that there were indeed some rumours that Elvis may occasionally have had homosexual leanings. If Daniel Rancour-Laferriere, on page 160 of his peer-reviewed study, Self-Analysis in Literary Study: Exploring Hidden Agendas (1994), mentions that "Albert Goldman (1981) hypothesized about homoeroticism in the gentile male icon Elvis Presley", this is certainly a clear statement. Some of the new sources also say that Elvis was not overtly sexual towards women as has been claimed so far. Suzanne Finstad's biography of Priscilla Presley may be added. This book says that Elvis hated sexual intercourse with women. Even Priscilla Presley confirms that he preferred "other things". In my opinion, all these topics concerning the so-called womanizer Elvis have not yet been sufficiently discussed. Onefortyone 14:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

With all due respect, you're regurgitating the very same arguments from discredited sources. There have been several thousand books published about Elvis that document everything to his music to his bowel movements. You have one book from a less-than credible source that suggests he might have been a homosexual. Other than that, all you have is personal conjecture and innuendo. This really doesn't belong here. You have an agenda that has no place in an online encyclopedia. Lochdale

Sorry, this is not personal conjecture or innuendo. I am only citing what is written by some independent authors. Priscilla Presley and Suzanne Finstad say that Elvis was not overtly sexual towards women. In a recent article, Alanna Nash, a reputed Elvis biographer, has confirmed that there were contemporary rumors about Elvis's sexuality: Natalie Wood, she writes, "was not the only one to think Elvis and the guys [from the Memphis Mafia] might be homosexual." This means that these are accusations made during Elvis's lifetime. She adds that there were also rumors that "Nick Adams swung both ways" and that "Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." These statements are very similar to claims which can be found in books by David Bret and Earl Greenwood and in an unpublished manuscript book by Elvis stepmother, Dee Presley. It seems as if there is now the beginning of a new discussion of Elvis's true sexuality. This should be mentioned in the article, especially since there are many other assertions to be found in the Relationships section. Onefortyone 01:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. You clearly have an agenda and your position is certainly not a neutral P.O.V. You are already trying to manipulate the issue to move towards unfounded allegations of Presely's sexuality. All you have "proven" is that a discredited and salacious writer (David Brett) has made allegations that Presley may of had an affair with another man. He is the only person to do so in over 2,000 seperate books about Preseley. He has little credibility. You then claim (without a real citation) that an unpublished manuscript by someone with an agenda is evidence supporting this claim. Dee Presley also claimed that Elvis had an affair with his own Mother so I don't think it is unreasonable to question her veracity. There are direct statements from numerous women who slept with Presley (including such high profile actresses as Ann Margaret and Cybil Sheparad) as well as a plethora of anecdotal evidence that utterly debunks your claim. Look at it this way, with over 2,000 books alone published about Presley, some of which detail the most salacious aspects of Presley's life, you have to resort to a muck-raker and an unpublished manuscript. I think it makes more sense for us to follow the overwhelming weight of the evidence which does not support your claim in any way.

Would you mind providing another link to the Nash article? I am having no luck finding it on Google.

Lochdale

Elvis's sex life

There should be a new paragraph concerning Elvis's allegedly wild sex life in the article. As the quotes above and Priscilla Presley's statements in her book Elvis and Me (see [3]) prove, Elvis was not overtly sexual towards his wife and other women as has been claimed in the "Relationships" section of the article. According to Peter Guralnick and other sources, he spent the whole day and night with men from the Memphis Mafia, "living on speed and tranqs." See Talk:Memphis_Mafia#Additional_sources. It could well be that Elvis was a victim of his own image, of all these built-in expectations of him as a womanizer and a sex symbol. There should be some critical remarks concerning these facts in the article. Onefortyone 11:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

As there has not yet been a sufficient discussion on the topic above, I have reinstated the last paragraphs from the archive6 page. Onefortyone 16:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Anyone who has ever taken strong prescription medications, especially tranquilizers, b/p meds, etc knows it does affect the sex drive and sexual performance. Elvis was a handsome gentleman that the women were crazy about. However, I'm sure it got old really fast. It has too be tiring to know that a herd of half-crazed females are going to try to rip off your clothes and will beat the day-lights out of you attempting to do so. I wouldn't care for it one bit. The man had no life because of his fame and because people acted irresponsibly and would not respect his privacy. --Bumpusmills1 12:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Unprotecting

I don't think page protection is getting us anywhere. I'm unprotecting. Anyone engaged in disruptive editing may be blocked under the blocking policy subject to review one the administrators' noticeboard for incidents. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Tony! fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 17:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Elvis Alive

According to Steve Wright on BBC Radio 2 a few days ago, Elvis was reported to be alive and well and driving a gritter through a snowstorm down a Welsh country lane. Come to think of it, a few years ago he was winning cycle races in Scotland. I know that because for several years in succession I presented him with the prize for winning our local race. (Or rather to a guy who went on to win "stars in their eyes"..) Viewfinder 13:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Elvis Afloat?

Can anyone confirm the ship he sailed to Europe aboard was operated by USN & N USNS (civil under USN control)? (If so, she'd be USNS, N USS.) Trekphiler 16:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Gospel?

I'd Q if gospel gave birth to R&B. As I recall, gospel (as we now know it) was a product of R&B influences, & grew out of an earlier spiritual music tradition. Trekphiler 16:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you arrived at Qing that fact? But, just because Presley, B.B. King, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard and others said it, I would agree that it "ain't necessarily so." Gospel music came from many sources, notably in the 16th and 17th century in the developing Protestantism of England and on the Continent. It got the term because at first it was actual New Testament Gospel quotes put to song. It was brought to America where freedom of religion was allowed and more expressive singing arose from that sense of freedom. Gospel music is recorded throughout pre and post American Revolution history. It was the Protestant churches who encouraged singing by the Congregation whereas the Roman Catholic faith did not. The early country gospel was loud, and as the Presley article states, church members, whose lives in small communities revolved around their church, were encouraged to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord." (I think that is a Scripture quote. It is, I just checked: Psalm 100:1). "Negro spirituals" are most often called Gospel music. R&B came from that singing. Presley stated that because of his upbringing, he "knew every gospel song ever written." - 18:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

To user 70.250.215.242

Why exactly did you remove the "died on the toilet" from the "Death and burial" section? You didn't give any reasons in your edit summary. Maybe you could share those reasons with us here in the discussion page (129.241.134.241 08:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC))

Archiving not yet necessary

As there has not yet been a sufficient discussion on the topics above, I have reinstated the paragraphs from the archive7 page. Onefortyone 14:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

We wish you a Merry Christmas, Elvis !

...as if every day was like Christmas. By the way, if you don't mind, we wish you'd tell the angels in Heaven we wish them a happy Christmas, too. Onefortyone 11:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Suzanne Finstad's account of Priscilla Presley's life

I have added some notes to the paragraph on Priscilla Presley in the Relationships section. In Suzanne Finstad's book, Child Bride: The Untold Story of Priscilla Beaulieu Presley, there is a completely different account of Priscilla's life, painting her in a rather negative light and describing her as a "wild child" and "sexpot". The sources of this book are several people who knew Elvis and Priscilla well, among them many friends from Priscilla's childhood and adolescence, Elvis's stepbrother Rick Stanley, Mike Edwards, Elvis's ex-girlfriends and the wives of the Memphis Mafia men. The author writes that Priscilla promised sexual favors in exchange for meeting Elvis with Currie Grant, a married, 27-year-old man who knew the singer, that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night, as she and Elvis slept together on their second date. The book also says that Priscilla didn't want to come to live with Elvis, but that her marriage was part of a mastermind for fame hatched by Priscilla and her mother and that she never loved Elvis. Finstad takes many quotes that Priscilla has made and calls them a web of lies that she has spun. Some more details from this book may be added. It should be noted, however, that Priscilla launched a lawsuit against Currie Grant for his claims in the book. Onefortyone 00:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

This passage should be rewritten

I have cut this paragraph which was added by an anonymous user to the Death section of the article:

Note: To be fair to Elvis and to respect his memory, some of his closest family members, friends and band members/background singers have long disputed stories concerning the seriousness or accuracy of Elvis' alleged drug abuse and "self-destructive" lifestyle while not denying that he did take prescription medications for bona fide or suspected health problems. The late Vester Presley, Kathy Westmoreland, Charlie Hodge, and the late J.D. Sumner and others have pointed out on record that Elvis also suffered from severe health problems unrelated to drug abuse and that these health problems such as glaucoma, insomnia and cancer may have increased his dependency on prescription medication especially for pain relief. They also have maintained that most of Elvis' personal life has been greatly exaggerated, that some of Elvis' former family members or friends who now speak of Elvis' personal habits have an axe to grind for one reason or another. For an alternative view, Kathy Westmoreland, a soprano who sang with Elvis in studio and toured with Elvis until his death in 1977 and who has never betrayed Elvis' memory, has addressed these and other issues in great detail on her website: Kathy Westmorland's website

In my opinion, this paragraph should be rewritten and perhaps included in the Drug section. Are there any secondary sources supporting this passage? Perhaps some quotes from Kathy Westmoreland's book, Elvis and Kathy, and other sources may be added here. See also the Wikipedia article on Kathy Westmoreland created by User:Ted Wilkes. However, I do not know how reliable this source is, as the author herself admits that she fell in love with Elvis and slept with him. She also claims that she was told by Elvis’ doctor, Dr Nickopoulos that the singer was dying of bone cancer. This, however, sounds rather unlikely. On the other hand, this assertion seems to be in line with Dee Presley's claim in her unpublished manuscript book that Elvis had committed suicide because he had been suffering from bone-marrow cancer. Today, Kathy has her own fan club, and a website. In his book, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley, Peter Guralnick says on page 566,

Back home in Memphis, Elvis split his pants bending over to kiss a fan ("Of all times and places!" he remarked) but generally seemed in fine fettle, playfully chiding the audience that they could have saved their money and seen him for free in a network broadcast of That's the Way It Is the previous week. He went on to make the introductions in his usual kidding fashion, pointing out that J. D. Sumner and the Stamps had not been with him when he made the movie, nor had Kathy Westmoreland, who "after tonight [might] not be with me ever." The audience laughed good-naturedly at the harmless joke, but Kathy was stung by this latest in what she took to be a string of veiled and not-so-veiled sexual references. Onefortyone 10:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)