Talk:Ancient Macedonians

Macedonian's competed at Olympics as self-identifying Greeks

Nearly the entire section focuses on some minor point by Herodotus (regarding the legitimacy of whether Macedonians should be allowed to compete in the ancient Olympics) while ignoring the fact they competed as SELF-IDENTIFYING Greeks in those Olympics for centuries. The way it's currently written (undue emphasis) it's as if Ancient Macedonians weren't seen as Greeks when it should be saying the opposite if anything. Ancient Greeks (at least at the Olympics) considered ancient Macedonians Greek enough to compete.

Personally I think modern political views are tampering with ancient Macedonian articles(see name dispute). If self-identification is what matters most though, we should be rationally consistent and apply those same rules to ancient Macedonians as well.

e.g.

"Men of Athens, In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, " Histories", 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.134.31 (talk) 22:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Someone undid my edit twice suggesting the second time "this was still a claim about his own family, not about the whole nation". Nowhere did I suggest anything in my edit about whole nation. I simply made some minor edits to reduce undue emphasis. Macedonian's competing in the ancient Olympics (as self-identifying Greeks) is hardly a "con" argument against ancient Macedonians being Greeks. At the moment, the section in question is entirely focused on one passage by Herodotus questioning Alexander-meanwhile it glosses over centuries of Macedonian participation in the ancient Olympics as self-identifying Greeks? (e.g. some other notable Macedonians that competed in the Olympics as self-identifying Greeks-including several kings of Macedonia-names that used to be part of the section but were erased)

480 Boxing Theagenes Thasos, 472 Boys' Boxing Tellon Orestheia. 408 Tethrippon Archelaos (King), 380 Pankration Xenophon Aigai, 356 Horse Race Philip II (King), 320 Stadion Damasias Amphipolis, 304 Tethrippon Lampos Philippoi, 292 Stadion Antigonos, 268 Foals' Tethrippon Belestichos, 268 Stadion Seleukos, 264 Synoris Belestichos

Alexander was ultimately accepted as Greek (by other Greeks) to compete in events and called himself Greek (if primary sources are to be believed this is fact not modern nationalist sophistry). Putting aside all discussion of what the term "Greek" actually means (or various definitions of ethnicity for that matter), the fact that Alexander was originally challenged is no more proof that Macedonians weren't self-identifying Greeks any more than Obama being challenged by birthers should be spun as "proof" he isn't a self-identifying American. (imagine in 2000 years people claiming Obama wasn't a self-identifying American given similar reasoning)

In my opinion, it is far fetched that all those Macedonians would have been allowed to compete by Athenians, Corinthians, Spartans, et al in the Olympics as non-Greeks (since it would have been viewed as sacrilegious to their Gods). It would also have been a slap in their face to the subjects of Macedonian kings that their own leaders would claim to be part of some other ethnic group and compete at foreign events (consider if George Bush competed in a Mexican only sporting events or at the Olympics as a self-identifying Mexican under a Mexican flag to get a whiff of how extreme an assertion that would be)

As far as I know even the minority of scholars that argue Macedonians weren't originally ethnically Greek (i.e. they are are defining their ethnicity beyond simple self-identification)-mostly agree Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks by the Hellenistic period.

e.g

"We have now become accustomed to regarding MACEDONIANS as northern GREEKS and, in extreme cases, to hearing Alexander's conquests described as in essence GREEK CONQUESTS. The former CERTAINLY became TRUE, in Greek consciousness in the course of the Hellenistic age; the latter may be argued to be true`ex post facto'." (Greeks and Macedonians -Studies in the History of Art - Badian)

Frankly, the whole section (and the current ancient Macedonian articles) seem to be undergoing a transformation lately-an over emphasis of passages that are seemingly intended to create distance between Macedonians and the rest of the Greek world (the above being an example). Unless there has been some major archeological discovery lately that prove ancient Macedonians weren't Greeks this strikes me as modern politics at work rather than an objective reporting of history. If on the one side some suggest the right to self-identification an absolute-doesn't it make sense that same reasoning should apply to ancient Macedonians that competed as self-identifying ethnic Greeks in the Olympics? Which way is it going to be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.140.227 (talk) 00:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)