Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

• Archive #1 - Pre-October 2005
• Archive #2 - October Disputes
• Archive #3 - October Mediated Disputes 1
• Archive #4 - October Mediated Disputes 2
• Archive #5 - November 3 through 13, 2005 (Mediated)
• Archive #6 - November 13 through 25, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005
• Archive #7 - November 25 through Deceber 22, 2005 (Mediated ) 2005
• Archive #8 - December 22, 2005 through January, 14, 2006 (Mediated) 2006
• Archive #9 - January 14, 2006

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General Neuro-linguistic programming chat page

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• NLP Chat Page

Unprotected on one condition

Flavius presents a good comprimise, so I will unlock the article on the condition that only reference conversion to superscripts and end notes is permitted. This is a good guideline to cleanup and to prevent edit wars.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 13:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Good. First go over the ^ on the references section and see what code name I assign it (like frogs). Then replace the corresponding Harvard notes with {{ref|name}}.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to request editors use html comments around any citations they plan to remove (in leiu of deleting them). These citations carry strong evidence of the edit history on the article and are useful for future editors. I trust all editors will find this suggestion amicable. Peace. Metta Bubble 04:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Lets stop doing further edits and give VoA a freehand to improve the article

I suggest that we should all stop doing edits and lets give VoA complete freedom (referencing, restructuring, cleanup, etc) to improve this article, if he doesn't mind undertaking this task. We can comment on the final draft using the peer review page. I don't mind further personal attacks as long as you can bring yourself to consider this idea in a positive way. --Dejakitty 17:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Any help converting references would be welcome, preferably from the "anti-NLP" group, so as to avoid accusions if an error where made. The subarticle is still there, and can be edited as desired.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 17:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but we should avoid splitting the editors into anti-NLP, pro-NLP. Every one believes that their opinion represents neutral point of view. --Dejakitty 18:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I put in quotes.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 18:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, can you help out with those refs?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 05:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there any one particular editor you would like to nominate to help you with the references? --Dejakitty 22:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to :).Voice of All^T|@|ESP 23:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

There is still alot of work to do on the references and notes. There must be a better way to handle the page numbers? What is the wikipedia standard for this? Can we get a comment on this? --Comaze 00:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Senses

In the section Foundational Assumptions I can see the clear academic sourcing for the statement " person's experience of the world is processed and organized in terms of the five senses". The trouble is, in modern science, even the most basic models of human beings assume at least nine senses -- and some more than 20. Might this be worth a minor change? See Senses.

Coricus 18:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Coricus, that's a good point but the section is intended to provide a non-normative account of NLPs foundational assumption. All of the NLP literature and seminars that I have experienced identify only five senses. The submodality lists provided at most NLP seminars are divided into visual, auditory, kinesthetic, olfactory and gustatory and the emphasis is generally on the first three. I've yet to encounter otherwise. In terms of providing an accurate account of NLPs position the assumption is correct. In terms of modern science it is plainly wrong. My guess would be that a NLPer would reduce all of the other senses into kinesthetic submodalities. In any event, most of the assumptions are either logically and/or empirically questionable, the unsoundness is not confined to that one principle you have identified. We can't say this as this would be OR, we are obliged to source an expert that specifically critiques the NLP foundational assumptions. If you can find an expert statement that specifically challenges this foundational assumption of NLP then we can add this as a further criticism of NLP. NLP is much more flawed in its detail than the NLP-specific research indicates (on both conceptual and empirical grounds) but because the scientific research into NLP stopped in the 1990s and because Wikipedia policy specifically prohibits OR much of the criticism -- derived from discoveries in neurology, psychiatry, psychology, genetics and psycholinguitsics -- will have to go unstated until an expert covers the matter (which is unlikely since NLP is considered dead and discredited anyway). flavius 23:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Flavius. NLP doesn't teach 9 senses (nor 20), and we need to reflect what it teaches. The sense of heat and cold (Thermoception as described in Senses) is just part of kinaesthetic, I even use humidity occassionally. Vestibular (Equilibrioception??) is the possible exception - some people teach it as integral with Kinaesthetic and others as a separate subset of kinaesthetic. Grinder does teach Vestibular, though I'm not sure if it's in his books at present. It's certainly part of the New Coding of NLP. GregA 00:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Coricus, "A sensory system is a part of the nervous system that consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and those parts of the brain responsible for processing the information. Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation, taste and olfaction." see sensory system --Comaze 23:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, you're missing the point. The five senses -- which NLPers claim are the basis for encoding of experince -- are insufficient to capture all subjective experience. For example, equilibrioreception and the sense of the passage of time (even though there is no specific system associated with time perception) cannot be reduced to VAKOG. flavius 00:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

In NLP, time is covered in Temporal predicates (Patterns 1 1976). A similar example would be Vestibular as they are sometimes lumped together with somatic or Kinesthetic. The 4-tuple (VAKO) is a gross reduction to model primary experience. --Comaze 00:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, you are missing the point. Time perception and proprioception can't be reduced to kinesthetic experience. Time predicates can't be shoe-horned into your beloved 4-tuple. The 4-tuple is indeed a gross reduction such that it is incapable of representing the richness of subjective experience. What is primary experience and why doesn't it include time perception? From a purely phenomenological standpoint time perception is no less important that experience obtained from VAKOG. Similarly, proprioception is also subjectively important -- especially for somatic skills -- and it isn't reducible to VAKOG. Even as the self-described definitive (implied by the) study of subjective experience NLP is sorely lacking. flavius 00:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

In 4-tuple, proprioception is noted as V_p (developed by Grinder) and this type of tactic knowledge is normally captured via imitation. The 4-tuple is used in the coding phase of NLP modeling. In standard notation future is represented as V^ft and past V^pa. Some people reduce this to V^c (visual construct), V^r (visual remembered)... This ofcourse would depend on your modeling project. --Comaze 01:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Then it is an incomplete conceptualisation of subjective experience. flavius 01:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

BAGEL model

The BAGEL model, as described, is a model for determining the internal representation systems in use by a person. Body, Access cues (voice tone/tempo), Gestures, Eyes, Language etc. Then the next section ("Eye accessing cues, body cues, and NLP representational systems") describes the rep systems more fully, and then the Eyes and body cues again in a slightly different way. Is there a reason these 2 subsections aren't merged? EG: A "representation systems" section with a subsection for cues to the rep systems (Body, Eyes, etc... "BAGEL".) I have a few other queries about the 2 subsections but that's secondary to the layout/merging question. GregA 01:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC) (ps. I assume the glaring spelling mistake "kinsesthetic" is known?)

NLP Model

See NLP Chat Page

Let's concentrate on improving this article please

Everyone, let's help fixing the references together for starters. We can improve the content later. --Dejakitty 11:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted one set of edits[1] by flavius so as to avoid more content bickering and edit wars while refs where being worked on (so as to avoid ref fixing being reverted in the process).Voice of All^T|@|ESP 06:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

VoA, How should we reference this statement? Replace the (XXXX) with a footnote superscript? "and Professionals(X) such as Author(Y) (XXXX) consider blah" This is really just a variation of the citation style we are converting from. --Comaze 11:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Dejakitty. Your "archiving" of my comments is consistent with all the other NLPfanatic's censorship efforts. It seems to be a habit of NLP zealots to try to whitewash their agenda. There is nothing wrong with pointing out your persistent attempts to censor facts. HeadleyDown 01:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The comment was a bit harsh and was likely not needed. However, I would recommend that everyone here avoid removing other people's comments. If rude comments pile up and slow progess, I will deal with them. If a comment is harsh but also contains specific article suggestions, then it should not be removed.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 02:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi VoiceOfAll. It is a bit rich, the NLPers demanding so much over the months, and advocating the format change, but then making excuses why they cannot be bothered to do it completely. If they really want to make the impression that they are being constructive, and not just looking for whitewash or excuses to make sneaky deletions, then they should just get on with changing all the citations to the new format. Its also annoying that they take such liberties with changing the discussion page headings, organization, and such to either obscure facts about their own misdeeds, to obscure conclusions that the facts they want banished are actually valid, and to rearange discussion to make it look inconclusive. Their removing or archiving of comments is just more of the same nonsense. Condidering the demands they constantly make for more evidence and more explanation, its time they did some work for a change. Camridge 04:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Only those with a true Inquisition mindset would consider it to be an unfair burden when others demand that lies be removed from the page. Thanks for exposing yourself as being unwilling, even in principle, to let this page be accurate. Quit whining, you flat-earther. 01:36, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

hello everyone, I've been away for a bit, I"m not sure if I have time at the moment but hope to be around more often.

So I don't tread on toes - could someone summarise the current rules for editing which have been agreed to? I notice that VoA said the article was locked and that it's only unlocked for referencing purposes, I assume that means any and all work/discussion is now done here? Is that still current? etc

Thanks GregA 00:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

They're the same old Wikipedia rules. Any of your censorship, promotion, spam, or whitewash will be reverted, and recruited NLP fanatics will be ignored. HeadleyDown 02:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Then I assume we're keeping the rules of no personal attacks too? Seriously Headley, have you deliberately ignored my question, and responded against me personally? Or is it your understanding that there are no special agreements for editing at the moment? VoA wrote "Flavius makes a good compromise" and said he'd open the article provided editing was only done on references. Is there an agreed procedure for improving the article? If anyone else could fill me in I'd appreciate it, perhaps Headley needs a reminder too? GregA 10:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Assume what you like. But you have just started with the same old repeat questioning again. Go ahead, gang up with some more NLP fanatic meatpuppets and vote for arbitration, a change of mediator, or whatever else you think will get the article to promote NLP. HeadleyDown 14:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Greg. The NLP fans advocated for a new format for references, and it seems that they only wanted to do so in order to make sneaky censorship of criticisms or whitewash. So the thing now is to allow the NLPfans to go ahead and change the ref format, while reverting their sneaky deletions. Well, we're waiting! Camridge 04:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Is this grammar correct

Is this grammar correct. It sounds odd to me "Council Against Health Fraud, and has characterized by ...". Also would it be appropriate to change the word in the article generalisation to generalization if that term spelling specifically through refrences is spelled with a "z"? Course maybe in B&G books in england they print them different hehe. It was kind of odd to see the "s" and I am totally cool with it. I was thinking it might make the article more conform to its own refrences? Or whatever :)jVirus 07:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

jVirus, I've corrected some of the spelling errors. The standard for this article is US english. A typical example is the US spelling of modeling (UK:Modelling). Correct me if I'm wrong, but in general usage "z" and "s" can be used interchangeably for words such as generalization (US) and generalisation (UK). --Comaze 01:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, the spelling style is not so important. You should get a move on with those citation format changes though. Come on now. ChopChop! DaveRight 02:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi jVirus. You're right, the grammar is incorrect. Instead of has characterized by it should say has been characterized by. (I'm ignoring the content here - just talking about the grammar). GregA 10:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

POV editing - all parties

Comaze, even after explaining the situation to you multiple times, with references, you still try to narrow a view that has been presented in a way as to bias the reader into thinking that the view is fringe skeptcism. Your efforts simply show that NLP is just dianetics for wannabe manipulators. As it has been explained to you already so many times on the discussion page, the only option open now is to explain it more clearly on the article itself. I realize that as an NLP zealot that must be excruciatingly traumatic for you. Tough! Wikipedia is about facts. Now get on with your ref format adjustments. Camridge 05:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to get a third party comment on this. I think Camridge/HeadleyDown's edits are biased POV [see diffs]. Why did you (HeadleyDown) alter the direct quote from Harry Edwards' Skeptics Guide to the New Age? [see diffs] --Comaze 22:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't play dumb, Comaze. As has been explained to you ad nausium, that view is widely held, and not simply a restricted view of a single skeptic. It is also the view of psychologists, professors, and other such experts. I will expand upon this point throughout the article, just to clarify, and to make sure you get the point. HeadleyDown 02:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Widely held by people who agree with you. So what? Akulkis 01:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, I think you're being mischevious (again). Edwards' position is widely held, for this reason it is not necessary (and misleding) to attribute it specifically to him. It is apparent that you are attempting to create the illusion of isolation and idiosyncracy, painting Edwards' view as the lonely voice of a eccentric contrarian. As HeadleyDown correctly points out, that view is shared by many experts, it is the consensus view. We don't need a third party opinion on this. The easy solution (if we are to accept your view that there is a problem) is to rephrase the statement so that it bears no resemblance to Edwards' whilst retaining the content and embellishing it with the numerous references that argue the same point. Clearly, you and GregA are unwilling to accept NLPs status as marginalia in the history of ideas. You and GregA reject all negative expert opinion regarding NLP wholesale. This is fanatical, cultish and irrational behaviour. Yours and GregA's position is fundamentally emotive and disconnected from reality (yes John Grinder there is a reality) that is why your dispute is non-justiciable. It is a matter of fact that a minority of universities and colleges teach NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of psychologists, psychiatrists, nurses, social workers and pastors practice NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of all professionals (in all categories) use NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of the human population have had training in NLP. It is a matter of fact that most topic experts (psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, philosophers and neurologists) that have researched NLP have concluded against it. It is a matter of fact that most topic experts (psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, philosophers and neurologists) have either not heard of NLP or if they have regard it as bunkum. It is a matter of fact that NLP was written off in the early 1990s as not worthy of any further research. It is a matter of fact that NLP often appears amongst a constellation of New Age concerns in trainings, books, therapies and personal interests. NLP is not an "epistemology", it hasn't got anything to do with philosophy, maths or logic, it isn't applied psychology, it isn't science, it isn't art, it isn't craft, it isn't a "bridge between empriricism and rationalism", it isn't the study of subjective experience, it isn't a means of accelerated learning, it isn't the tip of an emerging paradigm shift. It's just a great big steaming pile of Californian New Age, Human Potential horse shit that has become big business. flavius 03:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Topic moved to arbcom page. --Comaze 23:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"eschews" ?

To eschew is to avoid habitually. In the Overview shouldn't eschew be replaced with an antonym such as embrace? NLP embraces the New Age notion of "clearing blocks". flavius 12:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

This is just another attempt at subversion by inserting Scientology terminology (clearing) ... NOBODY in the NLP community uses such terminology, and you know it, you asshole. 01:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, you don't know what you're talking about (again). The article doesn't claim that the phrase "clearing blocks" is used in NLP but rather that the concept of "clearing" is ubiquitous. VK dissociation, submodality attenuation, Time Line Therapy, Change Personal History and collapsing anchors are all concerned with eliminating obsolete and now pernicious learnings. They are all regressive methods (ie. the problem is re-experienced) that are predicated on the notion that some present problem is due to some past learning that must be undone/removed/cleared/unblocked/de-energised/neutralised. This is the (re-)programming component of NLP. Also, both the phrase "stuck-state" and the underlying notion are very common in NLP[2]. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and f*ck off. flavius

Is there anyone that ban's users for personal attacking abuses? ^---Weak users unskilled in dismatling content resorting to attacking the presenter. WEAK. jVirus 05:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Guilt by association argument - Scientology/Dianetics

"Historically, NLP has many pseudoscientific associations such as the erroneous adherence of some NLP models to the engram concept"

This was ALREADY HASHED OUT MONTHS AGO....I move that whatever editor AGAIN put this deliberate disinformation into the page be banned from editing the page. 01:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This matter was settled in favour of its inclusion. The notion of the engram is used by NLPers (especially in Europe and Asia) to explain how VK dissociation, submodality attenuation and collapsing anchors are supposed to work. The word engram is not peculiar to Dianetics and Hubbard's use of the word is ditinct from neurologists and NLPers. Again, you don't know what you're talking about. flavius 07:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

..and yet, there is a distinct failure to make it clear that the word is being used in the sense that is used by neurologists, in your never-ending quest to connect NLP with Scientology. Is it too much to ask that you quit being an asshole who drags misleading (not to mention completely untrue) writings into this document???? Akulkis 10:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

No, you're wrong again. The way NLPers use the term engram is distinct from the way neurologists use it. NLP has nothing to do with Scientology (the CoS "spirtual" doctrine) it's related to Dianetics (the CoS "psychological" doctrine) in a number of ways which I'll detail for you shortly. Rather than spray this page with your paranoid rantings try doing some earnest research. You know f*ck all about NLP and Dianetics as you repeatedly demonstrate so sit back, shut the f*ck-up, read and learn. Soliciting information and evidence from others -- rather than ranting and typing banal expletives -- would go towards relieving you of your ignorance and broadening your pathologically narrow perspective. The only asshole in this discussion is you. Would it kill you to simply ask for more detail regarding a matter which you contest? Or is it that you simply cherish your groundless prejudices and can't bear to lose them (a kook without prejudices is no kook at all). You made a complete dick of yourself regarding Fritz Perls and Dianetics, the false ineffectual-harmless/effective-harmful dichotomy, the issue of Dianetics and hypnosis, the problems of anecdotal evidence etc. etc. etc. and you're about to do it again regarding the similarities between Dianetics and NLP. Is your ability to learn impaired or are you so f*cked-up in the head that you can't resist your own aberrant urges to make an ass of yourself on the WWW? flavius 11:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

AKluckis. Its interesting how your behaviour has only managed to demonstrate exactly how extremely cultish your obsessions and agendas are. Not only have you clearly been bent on censoring and whitewashing your dearest NLP devotion, but you have demonstrated how much intense pain it causes you to have the plain facts presented. Just try to realise that rational people can see what you have written. And try not to resent them for being realistic. HeadleyDown 12:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The above article text mentioned by Akulkis does not seem too problematic to me, as the engram is much different in NLP than in neurology. The Scientology associations do seem a little over the top. The research and reviews alone will do here, and we have plenty of them. BTW, lets try to avoid personal attacks, even against other people who use them.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 13:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's avoid guilt by association arguments. Lee Lady's comment [[3]] is personal opinion, and weak evidence at best. Is the intention to denigrate NLP or promote Dianetics/Scientology? With 8 repeats of Scientology, and 11 repeats of Dianetics -- it certainly begs the question. I think we can reduce this to about 1 or two sentences. this is not an article about Dianetics or Scientology. Should we remove the unnecessary repeats of Dianetics/scientology or do we need to get a RfC on this? --Comaze 03:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't "beg the question". The point is to present an accurate description of NLP. Since its inception -- because it is fundamentally a commercial venture -- NLP has been shrouded in myth, hyperbole and mystification. An encycopedic article should educate and enlighten, striving to cut through deliberate obscurantism and obfuscation. B&Gs malignant propagandising continues till today (as evidenced by the Grinder interwiew at inspiritive.com and the Bandler interview on mp3.com). NLP doesn't represent a paradigm shift in psychology or psychotherapy, it isn't the cutting-edge of applied psychology, it isn't the future of psychology. NLP is cut from the same cloth as Dianetics and EST -- the experts say this much and the parallels are apparent -- and this is worthy of mention. This is unpalatable to you Comaze because you would like to think of NLP as some sophisticated system of inquiry based on mathematics and logic that somehow evades scientific scrutiny. flavius 15:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hold your horses. I'm currently (re-)reading Dianetics and you'll be suprised about the similarities between Dianetics and NLP. Dianetics contains an explicit understanding of sensorially encoded memory, the characteristics of those encodings in terms of their sense-specific qualities (ie. submodalities), "reverie" (i.e. light trance), the notion of a "time track" (not unlike the NLP time line), an explicit appeal to instrumentalist epistemology, an explicit understanding of associated/dissociated memory, it's replete with IT metaphors and jargon (just like NLP) and the auditing process itself bears numerous similarites to VK dissociation, Time Line Therapy, submodality attenuation and collapsing anchors. Lee Lady conjectures the role of CoS as a template for B&G:

For a while, Bandler and Grinder thought that they could turn NLP into a product which could be promoted to the general public for a lot of money. I'm sure that they must have had the examples of L. Ron Hubbard and Werner Erhard in mind. (You have to remember that at this point they had no academic position and were living on the edge of poverty. But of course this sort of attitude certainly didn't endear them to the academic world.) (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/history-3.html)

Lady's conjecture is not unusual. Hubbard and Erhardt served as pioneers for the New Age/Human Potential industry. It was my intention to detail these many parallels in this subsection of the discussion page in an effeort to put the myth that NLP has nothing to do with Dianetics to bed. flavius 02:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, read some of the Dianetics literature written by Hubbard. You will find that there is a great deal of scope for writing more about both Dianetics and Scientology in the article. And it will make the article even more encyclopedic and clear. Presently the mention of Dianetics and Scientology are only brief mentions. Each one can be better explained in their own context. HeadleyDown 03:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Some tests for Original research RE:Scientology/Dianetics

1. it introduces an argument (without citing a reputable source for that argument) which purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; or
2. it introduces a synthesis of established facts in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing the synthesis to a reputable source. src:WP:NOR. --Comaze 04:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

disambiguation engram

The engram page has changed to provide disambiguation for the different usage of Engram (Dianetics), and Engram (neuropsychology). I made the change in the article to reflect this. It is still not clear what definition of engram is being used in that section. --Comaze 03:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

New Paper Published in Peer-Reviewed Highly Regarded Journal Critical of NLP

Devilly, Grant J. (2005) "Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 2005; 39:437-445

ABSTRACT

Objective: Advocates of new therapies frequently make bold claims regarding therapeutic effectiveness, particularly in response to disorders which have been traditionally treatment-refractory. This paper reviews a collection of new therapies collectively self-termed 'The Power Therapies', outlining their proposed procedures and the evidence for and against their use. These therapies are then put to the test for pseudoscientific practice.

Method: Therapies were included which self-describe themselves as 'Power Therapies'. Published work searches were conducted on each therapy using Medline and PsychInfo databases for randomized controlled trials assessing their efficacy, except for the case of Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing has more randomized controlled studies conducted on its efficacy than any other treatment for trauma and thus, previous meta-analyses were evaluated.

Results and conclusions: It is concluded that these new therapies have offered no new scientifically valid theories of action, show only non-specific efficacy, show no evidence that they offer substantive improvements to extant psychiatric care, yet display many characteristics consistent with pseudoscience.

This paper is significant for several reasons:

1. It represents an answer to Figley's hyperbole on his Traumatic Stress Forum.
2. The existing criticisms and conclusions regarding NLP are re-iterated (this convergence is important in evaluating earlier research -- pro and con).
3. NLP is characterised as pseudoscience and essentially a commercial venture.
4. NLP's status as settled and not worthy of further research is reiterated and it is demonstrated that research has shifted towards the newer "Power Therapies" (EFT, TFT, EMDR, TAT and TIR), which are incidentally advocated and practised by many NLPers.
5. It is concerned with efficacy, i.e. NLP (and the other Power Therapies) are assessed on their own terms.
6. It is recent.
7. It is in a mainstream professional journal.

This vindicates the position of the critical camp (myself, HeadleyDown, Camridge, DaveRight et al) and it shows the position of Comaze and GreagA to be untenable and fundamentally disocciated from reality.

This vindication should have an emboldening and encouraging effect on those that have struggled against the relentless spray of propaganda and the surreal "alternate world landscaping" efforts of GregA and Comaze on behalf of Inspiritive [4] and Grinder.

I will re-read the paper and add the paper as a reference.

PS:- For your amusement see http://sudotherapay.tripod.com/ It's telling of the status enjoyed by the "Power Therapies" (including NLP) that they are being lampooned in this manner. flavius 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Flavius, Clinical psychologists' criticism of NLP is already represented in the article. Does Grant Devilly find anything that was not covered by Lilienfield et al (2003)? To be fair we should probably expand Figley's support of VK/D in Traumatology workshops. --Comaze 00:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Devilly isn't a clinical psychologist he's a researcher in neuropsychology. Secondly, you don't appear to -- or perhaps don't want to -- understand the notions of consensus of opinion and convergence of opinion. Devilly (2005) converges on the same conclusions as other scientific papers on NLP. We're getting at the point where a firm consensus of expert opinion is being further consolidated. This is very significant. Devilly (2005) presents another literature review that is two years after Lilienfeld (2003) and reiterates the broad consensus opinion on the matter. Furthermore, the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry is an important peer-reviewed journal. Devilly (2005) didn't find that previous research into NLP was inadequate, that NLP is based on a whiz-bang epistemology that is not amenable to scientific scrutint, that NLP is the way forward. In short, he did not find anything that suggests that any of the claims on this site[5] are true. On the contrary he reiterates the consesus opinion of Sharpley, Lilienfeld, Eisner, Druckman and Swets etc. etc. etc. Devilly (2005) is eminently more citable that the shit you have snuck into the article such as Mathison, Tosey and Malloy. No credible peer-reviewed journal would carry the junk spouted by Grinder or Malloy and lapped up by sycophants. Figley carries no weight. Devilly (2005) answers Figley's hollow claims. You are clutching at straws. You've spent AU$10,000 on this crap course[6] and now you're dissonant. In an attempt to reduce this dissonance you're trying to convince yourself that your time and money was well spent. In order to do this you've resorted to landscaping and grooming Grinder's imaginary parallel universe so that you can comfortably reside in it (with GregA). Your sustaining weltenschaung is becoming increasingly bizarre -- I fear that it will soon become so disimilar to everyone else that all communication with you will become impossible. This is very cultish. The pattern of your thinking is becoming increasingly plain. You appear to have accepted the content of your Grad. Cert. in NLP as perfect -- Grinder, Bostic-St Clair and his Australian sycophants the Collingwoods are infallible. The prophet and his apostles have the Truth and they will allow you to share in it for AU$10,000. Thus the validity of the content of your Grad. Cert. in NLP is axiomatic -- it's truth is beyond question (not unlike a Euclidean axiom such as "Things which equal the same thing also equal one another."). The job you have assumed for yourself -- it would appear -- is to re-order the Universe so as to accomodate the content of the Grad. Cert. in NLP taught at Inspiritive. Screw science, screw linguistics, screw logic, screw statistics, screw research design you effectively declare. Your modus operandi appears to be that if anything contradicts anything the Collingwoods taught (passed down to them via Grinder) it must be wrong and must be torn usunder to accomodate the Truth as espoused at Inspiritive. This is cultish thinking. This is all becoming creepy and concerning. In the "Web of Belief" Quine contended that beliefs form interdependent networks, that a given belief will have antecedent and consequent beliefs. In Quine's scheme any belief -- no matter how ridiculous -- can be accomodated the only cost is that the "web" of surrounding beliefs must be altered. Depending on the nature of the belief the whole web may have to be changed. This provides an episetemic understanding of how an adult can believe the Xenu story of the CoS. Clearly, accepting the Xenu story as true will require a massive re-organisation of one's web of beliefs: science will be one of the main casualties. You too are doing the same thing as the Scientologists which you are so desperately attempting to distance yourself from. You too have re-organised your web of belief such that NLP remains true regardless of any contrary evidence. You have in fact gone one step further, you -- following the lead of Grinder laid out in Whispering and to be further elaborate in Red Tail Math have redefined the very concept of evidence. The notion of evidence has been reconstructed in an attempt to invalidate all negative scientific finds against NLP and to preserve its apparent truth value in the face of any future criticism. I'm interested to read from you what your position is regarding the epistemic status of the content of the Grad. Cert in NLP. Do you deem Grinder to be infallible? Is it possible -- according to you -- that Grinder is wrong about NLP? This cuts to the heart of the matter of whether you are entirely rational and worth my (or anyone elses) time and effort. If you do regard NLP as a perfect doctrine in the same way that Fundamentalist Christians regard the Bible (i.e. as inerrant and absolutely authoritative) then your position is one of faith and you are being disingenuous with all your "research". Do you have any criticisms about any of the content imparted to you during the Grad. Cert. in NLP? Is New Code NLP perfect and by implication Grinder infallible? flavius 03:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice one Flavius. Sure, Devilly needs some more airtime in the article. I seem to remember a similar paper that had Scientology in the same list as the other bullshit therapies. I'll see if I can find it. Comaze seems to be begging for it, bent over, trousers round ankles etc. Cheers DaveRight 03:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Overviews (criticism and overview)

I've removed the overview text and the intro the the criticism section. Both section were biased. Sathnam Sanghera is a newly appointed columnist (London Fin. Times) and if you include this author it opens the gates for a whole host of authors from similar publications (pro and con). Harry Edwards' Skeptics Guide to the New Age is also inappropriate for the overview of NLP -- it should be written from a Neutral Point of View. --Comaze 02:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, Sanghera's view and Edwards' views both converge towards the same view as the experts. This convergence suggests where the truth of the matter lies. You are attempting to manufacture an illusion that your views are something other than fringe. flavius 03:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)