Talk:High fantasy

2004 comments

should we seperate high fantasy from heroic fantasy ? Imran 00:04, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

i dont think Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy is high fantasy, the first book ain't more than sword and sorcery. camara

why is george rr martin on both the high fantasy and low fantasy pages as an example?

perhaps because it's possible to write books in two different genres? -Norph

The A song of Ice and Fire cycle of novels have several features which makes it acceptable to think of it as both high fantasy and low fantasy. It is high fantasy because it focuses on nobility, it deals with epic themes and has a larger-than-life scope. But there are equally valid reasons to call it low fantasy: The amount of magic is far less than in the majority of high fantasy novels(this is the most important reason). Characters are not "protected" by fate, as they are in, say, the Wheel of Time cycle. And also, the feudal system is not glorified. This is why I wrote on the low fantasy page that A Song of Ice and Fire belongs to the high fantasy GENRE, but often is categorized as low fantasy. sindreman

Twenty book maximum

I realise your ambition, but please consider that 20 titles are enough. Please stop putting any more books or authors' exemples, because I will subsequently delete them. Please be so kind and do not this anymore. 20 books and authors, are completely enough for such an article. Thank you for your attention: Painbearer 23:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Since my edit was reverted on the grounds that "twenty books was enough", I produced a new one. Obviously, it is more important to put the really major works at a higher priority, but the question is, which ones are they, and whose opinion determines? But I think it's clearly idiotic to leave E. R. Eddison off, and insist that D&D books such as Salvatore and Dragonlance go on. An an article just on gaming inspired fantasy would be nice, actually. I suggest if someone wants to both insist that the list be kept to twenty books {\it and} that they determine which books, they are not being reasonable. If someone wants to insist that the list be limited to twenty books, but doesn't like my present suggestions, that would be reasonalbe. But if someone decides to boot one selection in order to return The Sword of Terrible Writing to the list, they should justify it here. Gene Ward Smith 03:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I've split the list off into its own article, List of high fantasy fiction. It can now grow or shrink to whatever size is appropriate without impacting this article about the genre in general. Bryan 06:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be useful to categorize works of fantasy by the period they were written? Eddison has a special role because he was an early author of fantasy, influencing later authors. Roleplaying or other game influenced fantasy could be a special category, too.

Saga or series

I've reworded this section. Perhaps some sections of the original text were not written by a native English-speaker? I tried to clarify the meaning of some of the sentences.

The opening sentence remains somewhat vague, in my opinion. It states "Role-playing campaign settings like Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance [1] are an excellent basis for many fantasy books and many authors continue to contribute to the settings." I think this could be clarified somewhat.

Does the sentence mean that the settings in the books are a basis for many fantasy books? That would seem like putting the cart before the horse. Or does it mean that, once written, the settings provide a basis for many additional books in that series? I would imagine it's the latter. If the original author would care to clarify, please do so. If not, I may change the sentence structure to more clearly convey the latter interpretation.--Dunedan 05:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Generic Fantasy

I think there should be a topic concerning criticism of High Fantasy. All those "Tales of the Forgotten Magic Dragonlords of Darkness" books (usually trilogies) are widely considered as pulp fiction. Here's a good aritcle about it: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/gulliver.htm

'Excellent' Basis

Matter of opinion, that. Changed to 'common' basis instead.

Article needs dates

There is no indication in the article about when high fantasy as a genre started. At the very least, someone needs to track down when the term "high fantasy" was FIRST used, as that would at least give some context to all this. Personally, I would date the start of high fantasy as a recognisable subgenre to the 1950s (when Lewis and Tolkien were publishing), and the explosion in imitations of this style to the 1960s - but I am just guessing here, really. Some sourced statements would be nice. Carcharoth 15:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Image in Genre Overview

The image currently in the Genre Overview section really should have some sort of caption. I would give it one, except I have no idea what its supposed to be an image of, exactly, or where the image is originally from. Unless someone can give this image a good caption, I think we should replace the picture with a different one. - Runch 19:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Subgenres

The article says:

'In some fiction, a contemporary, "real-world" character is placed in the invented world, sometimes through devices such as portals to other worlds or even subconscious travels. Purists might not consider this to be "true" high fantasy, although such stories are often categorized as high fantasy due to the fact that they've yet to be classified as their own distinct subgenre, and often resemble this subgenre more closely than any other'

I'm nigh on certain I've seen this named in more than one place as a 'secret garden' fantasy, or something very similiar, but the search is swamped on google by the novel. Anyone else heard anything like this, maybe with a source? I will have a look through some of my books on fantasy and see if I can find anything. --KharBevNor 01:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Danny Birt

Is this author a good example? Me, I would think The Tough Guide to Fantasyland would be a better cite of the satirical attacks on this genre. Goldfritha 03:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Out he goes, then. Goldfritha 21:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

fix this paragraph, sheesh

This is pretty bad, clearly written by several editors putting in their own two cents:

The term can also distinguish between high fantasy and low fantasy—or to be more precise, low fantasy can be contrasted with high fantasy, as the term "low fantasy" has been defined in varying ways that contradict each other—but all contrast with high fantasy. In the commonest, "low fantasy" is distinguished by the relative amount of supernatural forces in the world—low—or by its setting in the real world with fantastical elements intruding. Brentt 04:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. This paragraph is awkward, makes almost no sense, and has been sitting for a year and a half without having the circular structure addressed. I'm trying to reword the sentence so its structure isn't so circular. If I miss the meaning and mis-edit, which would be easy to do with as unreadable as this is, feel free to revert, but then please edit the sentence so it makes sense.

Jamesfett (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

oldest?

"While it is far from being the oldest fantasy subgenre"

Does anyone have any references to the relative ages of the subgenres? Goldfritha 04:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

P.O.V. Issues

I deleted the following paragraph from the end of "genre fantasy" because it injected too much p.o.v. into the article, although the criticisms are certainly common. Maybe there's a better way to make this point? "Recycling of ideas sometimes makes high fantasy dull or repetitive. Many of the novels are strongly influenced by Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, which is considered the groundwork of the genre. Others lift generously from real-life myths and legends, which can also result in a very familiar feel." Chris Hall 14:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

D&D

I changed the D&D example from Forgotten Realms to Greyhawk. This is the standard D&D Setting and follows the high fantasy concept more strictly than the Forgotten Realms. They are much more oriented towards magic users, not in a mentorway but as main characters. The Forgotten Realms are the most popular example, but not the best for high fantasy. --Sturmwolf 16:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Gender issues

I added Lyra Belacqua to the list of heroes, since I felt that this was a boy's club from reading the article. Except for two authors and two sources, all the characters and authors are male. Other possibilities would be Beagle's Amalthea, Hodgell's Jame, Lackey's Talia, McKinley's Aerin, or Moon's Paksenarrion. Actually, most of the examples cited on the page are strongly sword and sorcery (with maybe the exception of Tad Williams, which I read long ago.) There seem to be many other examples on the list of high fantasy fiction which are not S&S. Kvon 02:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)kvon

I agree with this statement, and I think it's an unfair underrepresentation, since the examples seem to be random rather than illustrative of anything (periods, styles, age group, etc.). I think the examples should use a criterion like, "examples of "pure fantasy are ..." or something along those lines. The article cites a source written by Patricia A. McKillip but doesn't even mention her work in the examples?! Also, couldn't it be argued that David Edding's Belgarion, due to his often less-than-heroic actions, doesn't exactly qualify as high fantasy? There should at least be an explanation of examples. --Mistsrider (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I am inclined too agree with you on the count that female protagonists are a highly undeveloped aspect of fantasy and need better recognition. But scince the begining of human kind, men (like myself) have devloped a tendancy to be very teritorial when it comes to including women in fine arts (like writing). Altho this tendancy was eraticated as womens writes came along men are still in preference to male protagonists as this reassures us of our (subconcious) dominace. Please forgive us when we display are preferance to "Boys clubs" as this is a display of our (subconcious) dominace. Please forgive me if this addition in any way seems sexist belive me I didnt intend it to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swissblade13 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Origins and predominant style

High fantasy as a genre that we recognise today has its roots in British/Northern European myths. Indeed the majority of "High fantasy" output today is still centered on fictional Nordic/European Medieval universes. Is it worth mentioning this? At the moment readers are not given much of an impression of the clear cultural influences on the genre. I know there are exceptions, which should be noted, such as oriental influences, but at the moment readers are not told much of the "feel" of High fantasy 16 August 2007

Image

What does that image show? It looks like some piece of impressionist art. Surely there's something more relevant, like something related to a high fantasy book or film. Thanks, George D. Watson (Dendodge).Talk^{Help and assistance} 00:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Parallel/invented worlds

Actually Tolkien explicitly said that his stories were set in the past of our world. To be true, this was essential to his conception, because one of the inspiration for his works was to provide a genuine anglo-saxon mitology (beside creating "speakers" for his imaginary languages). So, saying that a feature of high-fantasy is to be set in parallels or invented worlds is plainly wrong just for the most prominent writer cited. [excuse me for poor english] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.100.146.29 (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this. For example, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more quintessential High Fantasy story than the tales of King Arthur, especially Le Morte d'Arthur and The Once And Future King, yet they are both set on earth, during the Age of Camelot. Now, while there is no clear time as to when Camelot is supposed to have existed, it is still understood that Arthur is part of "history," and is universally accepted to be part of our world (again, whether or not Arthur actually lived is irrelevant - he is considered a "true" part of history, and no one will debate that Camelot is to be considered from another world). What may be more intuitive is to say that High Fantasy is set in Parallel or Invented Worlds or TIMES, as the Age of Camelot can be said to be an invented/parallel time period, and the same is true for the Ages of Middle Earth, as well as the Cimmerian time periods presented in the Kul and Conan series'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.18.57 (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

NOPE. >> Yes, the story of King Arthur was written with the intention to "convince us" that it was a real happening, BUT, this is another genre of fairy tale, its ishistorical fantasy.--189.102.230.12 (talk) 22:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Paolini was not born when High Fantasy came to fruition.

Paolini was not involved in the beginning of high fantasy in the 1950s, so it doesn't really make any sense to add him to the intro paragraph where it talks about High fantasy coming to fruition under Lewis and Tolkein. I've reverted that change. Psychobunny2412 (talk) 20:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Unclear intro

"...one of the two genres most commonly associated with the general term fantasy." So what's the other? Low fantasy? Clarityfiend (talk) 17:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Lol, not quite. Read the whole sentence, my dear: "While it is far from being the oldest fantasy subgenre, high fantasy, along with sword and sorcery, has become one of the two genres most commonly associated with the general term fantasy." (yes, I added the bolding!) How should this be changed? —the_ed17— 17:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

D'oh! Clarityfiend (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sword and Sorcery is Low Fantasy Psychobunny2412 (talk) 17:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It is! I didn't know that! Low fantasy is a term that encompasses a few different genres, one of which is S & S...thanks, Psychobunny...By the way, have I said anything about your awesome name? —the_ed17— 17:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Lord Voldemort's most loyal servant

I don't think Peter Pettigrew makes a good example of Lord Voldemort's very loyal servants. He is mostly driven by his cowardice. A good example, IMHO, would be Bellatrix Lestrange. Any ideas? Hom sepanta (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't even know why voldemort is mentioned at this article since harry potter is not high fantasy, it is contemporary fantasy, we should take that out of the article (I know it is a cliche dark lord but it just does not fit the genre) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.173.147.73 (talk) 03:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

FTA:"By contrast, low fantasy is characterised by being set in the primary world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements." I agree that sounds like harry potter (not meant as a slight to H.P. fans) and so I don't think any elements from that mythos should be included in this article.

I'd recommend removing it from this article. Alan16 (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC).

I must side with Hom & the rest on. Harry Potter while a good modern work of Fantasy is not really high fantasy. If we clamed that it was then Artemis Fowl would also mbe mentioned with the Lord of the RingsApplechair (talk) 07:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree... harry potter (and all "worlds within worlds") are exactly low fantasy..

His dark materials in genre overview

In the genre overview it states that "The secondary world of high fantasy exists, or may be entered, in three different forms" and in the first form "where the primary world does not exist". His Dark Materials is listed here. However in the series, one of the main characters goes from her fantasy word (secondary world) to the primary world (or seems to be from what we see) then leaves again. This means that although the character goes through a portal as in the third form it is the reverse going from the secondary to the primary then back again. As such would this merit A) a fourth form B) a rewording of the third form or C) just leaving the series out all together?

Sorry if my wording is confusing. :)

92.10.202.25 (talk) 17:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Primary world doesn't exist in Tolkien's universe?

While it's not clear from Lord of the Rings and Hobbit, that Arda is actually "Earth". Actually if you go into some of ther writings of Tolkien such as comments in his letters, and the HoME series one finds out that Arda is actually earth. In Tolkien's vision, Middle-Earth represents distant ages in Earth's past.

One example is in Letters 169 (P. 124), in which Tolkien discusses that he devised the geography of Middle-Earth dramatically rather than geologically or paleontologically. He mentions that he sometimes wished that he had some how incorporated some of the ideas with the ideas from geologists, but knows that it would have only caused more trouble with human history.

Furthermore in Letters 211, he discusses that Arda (meaning 'realm') is the name given to our world, since it would be the seat and special domain of the King, because the Children of God would appear there. He also goes onto say that if his stories were history, it would be difficult to place the locations, but that Middle Earth is more or less in the location of modern Europe, with the Shire expressly stated to be in that region. He mentions he could have tried to tie things into known history even more but feels that the time gap between the Fall of Barad-dur and his present to allow for his history to fit into our own. He states specifically that he "...constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place." He places his present in what he calls the end of the Fifth Age (pg 283), and that the events of LOTRO occured about 6000 years before, though the present might be near the end of the Sixth Age or Seventh.

He mentions that many of his reviewers thought that Middle Earth was on another planet, but that that was never his intent.

If i'm understanding the wiki article correctly then it wouldn't fit into the idea of being in a "secondary world" with the primary world in non-existence, but rather he viewed Middle Earth being in the past of the primary world. Granted that would sort of tie it into one of the definitions of "Low Fantasy" which places the story in the "primary world" with elements of magic added. But Tolkien's works really can't be definied by either definitions. 76.232.176.26 (talk) 21:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The source for that is "Exploring Children's Literature" by Nikki Gamble and Sally Yates. I hadn't noticed the fact tag so I didn't expand the citation templates to each entry. I know that Middle Earth is supposed to be in pre-history, like Howard's Hyborian Age, but I believe the reasoning is that it is so far removed from the primary world that it counts as the secondary world (in a similar way that Hogwarts counts as the secondary world for Harry Potter despite being in Scotland). I won't revert for a while just in case this is to debated. The book can be read through Google Books if you are interested. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 00:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it can't. Three of the 216 pages from the Gamble & Yates book are available through Google Books. 96.35.172.222 (talk) 14:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure Gamble's interpretation is necessarily accurate, and the end all and be all definition, its much too restrictive to shoe horn every type of high fantasy out there into those three spaces. Tolkien himself spent years writing letters to his critics "correcting them" whenever they assumed his books were somehow in a "secondary world", when he intended for them to fit into "our world" in a distant epoch. He argued that it fit into the themes he was going for essentially set in Midguard the inhabited lands, in North West Europe its own age.

Beyond that I know there are other books out there with different authors giving there interpretation of what "high fantasy" is, so it would help to give alternative views in the article.137.222.231.108 (talk) 14:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Star Wars?

While it indeed follows the general storyline for high fantasy, I think you'd need a cite to establish it as belonging to that genre. It's normally regarded as space opera science fiction.

I was going to cut all references to it, but maybe that's best left to a regular editor, if there's agreement. 192.91.147.34 (talk) 02:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

What?

One question... What subgenre is Peter Pan? Is it not high fantasy?? :O —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.230.12 (talk) 06:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Ways to enter

I have altered a phrasing claiming that there are three ways to enter a secondary world (clearly too restrictive) and removed the incorrect example of Thomas Covenant. Notably, the latter moves by losing consciousness and there is some room for interpretation whether his adventures really do happen. Similarly, Narnia (at least in some books) could be interpreted as children playing. Similarly, Stephen King's The Talisman could be a case of alcohol abuse.

Other possibilities include transportation by means of e.g. a spell rather than a portal (IIRC, Kay's Tapestry of Fionavar and Dickson's The Dragon Knight---which is on the border line between alternate reality-time travel). Other possibilities yet could likely be found on closer investigation. 88.77.180.185 (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, etc. "real world" issues

I can't shake off the feeling that the numbered list in the genre overview clashes rather a bit headlong with the definition of the genre. The issue is later adressed in the "Settings" section, but rather inelegantly, and I'd say the problem still remains. As far as the traditional definition of High Fantasy is concerned, it just seems wrong to try and extend it to include works like Harry Potter and Percy Jackson. They are rather unambiguously defined -- though not explicitly -- as "low fantasy" just a few lines above. As a fan of High Fantasy (i.e. Secondary World fantasy), I can't help cringing to find the definition made to fit those books, even though I quite like them. Trigaranus (talk) 11:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

There are some problems with Gamble's interpretation and definition of high vs. low fantasy, and as you said its much too restrictive. She is clearly at odds with definitions, and comments made by the authors and other literary critics. For example she apparently claims that Tolkiens works exist in a "secondary world", when Tolkien himself spent years writing to his critics and fans telling them, no they were wrong it was in our world. Rowling has stated that Hogwarts exists in a secluded spot in Scottland... rather than in "another world". While I certainly would agree that these fall into high fantasy rather than low fantasy. They don't fit into the molds that she defined, and they can't be 'sho-horned' in either.137.222.231.108 (talk) 14:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Sword of truth

Currently classified under type one "primary world does not exist" but in fact its type two or three if anyone has finished it. Shouldnt it be changed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.216.86 (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You can change it, sounds like you know the series better, and can cite directly from the books.137.222.231.108 (talk) 14:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)