Talk:Music of Russia

sentence fragment or something cut off at the end

"By the 1980s, popular folk-oriented groups had arisen. The Cossack Kazachy Krug and Pesen Zemli became most popular. A musical underground (magnitizdat)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.241.137.117 (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Church Music

Why is there nothing in this article on Russian Orthodox Church music? I am no expert on the subject, but I do own several CDs and have visited some the Solovki Monastery in Russia, and church music is a very significant part of Russia's musical history. All I really know is that it seems like it was influenced by Byzantine chants (before Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453, that is, and the center of the Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity moved to Moscow). One would think from reading this article that Russia's musical history began in the 19th century. This needs to be addressed, but as I said I'm not an expert. Can anyone more knowledgeable add something? Esn 04:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Shanson??

Shanson is one of our most celebrated music genres, Krug, Nagovitsin, Шелег don't even get a mention. A section should be added explaing shanson its meaning and popularity and even its comparisons to the wests rap music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.14.153.135 (talk) 00:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Utesov.jpg

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• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --03:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Um...sorry... dont delete this message=)))

My english is bad, but I want to talk you this: Zolotoe Koltso - is a Pop-Folk band, not Folk-Rock!!! Kalinov Most is one of most important Folk-Rock Band, but I don't see It in article.=((( Zvuki Mu - is a Rock Band, not Electronic, and It was in USSR. Only. Thank you for read this.=))) Your friend from Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.51.5.184 (talk) 15:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Sofia Rotaru

I have re-inserted picture of Sofia Rotaru as Sofia Rotaru was the most popular Russian artist in 2000's, has topped last year the Moscow airplay with her new song, and is being called in Russia as the Queen of the Russian Pop scene.

She is named the Queen of Pop Music in Russia and countries of the former USSR:

http://rus.postimees.ee/100807/glavnaja/estonija/20654.php ,

http://www.radioportal.ru/news/5173/pyatiletie-festivalya-legendy-retro-fm-otmetili-bolee-20-000-zritelei ,

http://legendyretrofm.ru/press/2009/89 .....

Rotaru has been performing for more than 40 years. According to the polls, she is the most popular pop artist in Russia:

http://rotarusofia.ru/news/events/event-7-dne.htm ,

http://www.russianamerica.com/common/arc/story.php/241372?id_cr=104 ,

http://romir.ru/en/news/res_results/68.html http://www.yalta-gs.gov.ua/en/news/detail.php?ID=1944

Rotaru topped the Moscow airplay with "Ya nazovu planetu imenem tvoim" in 2008:

http://www.rma.ru/show/news895.html;30

Rotaru has been named in 2008 the Ukrainian Show Queen as well:

http://show.oboz.ua/article/8632.htm

--Rubikonchik (talk) 10:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

None of this serves as a reason for turning the page into a fan site or a gallery. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 11:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• Rubikonchik, you misinterprete what images in Wikipedia are used for. They are used just to illustrate how music performers looked like at the era (here: 30's jazz, 70's pop, and 80's rock). Not to give credit for past or present popularity. If we put there images of every popular artist in Russia (including those, who, like Rotaru, is from Ukraine), there will be no space for the text at all. Garret Beaumain (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning regarding the representation of a specific era. The picture of Sofia Rotaru is clearly not from 70's. However, Rotaru is not "every popular" artist. She is indeed the most popular artist as per numerous official references above. I also agree with you that she, being of Ukrainian citizenship, is the most popular artist in Russia. And yes, I will not respond to the perosnal attacks of user Erikupoeg below.--Rubikonchik (talk) 11:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

None of the reasoning is useful with Rubikonchik. He will not respond anyway. Just like this discussion (whether to include an image of Sofia Rotaru or not) - if you do not eliminate Rubikonchik, it will go on forever. I am speaking from my ample experience with him (or her?) - he is a raving fan and should be dealt as such. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 11:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The above comment is also a call for immediate attention at the Sofia Rotaru article - the Russian news reporters' wild fantasies it features (Rotaru earning $100 mln a year and her being a rapper in the 1970s), the unencyclopaedic content (entire paras of her impersonators and friends), the weasel words, the edit warring, genre warring and constant removal of maintainance tags. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 09:03, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Personal interpretation of sources by User:Erikupoeg cannot be considered as a reference, unless there is a new rule on Wikipedia and we can therefore reference personally biased edits of User:Erikupoeg to himself.--Rubikonchik (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Early history

A section on early history is needed. Something about which instruments were used in Kievan Rus, Muscovy (Gusli, Svirel, Gudok for example), about Skomorokhs, as well as about church music, and bells.Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

• Bandurist, some of your edits do not improve the article. You claim it to be "language" edits, while actually you make erratic factual changes.

• "establishment" of Muscovy is not a decisive point of Music. Muscovy was established in 1283, and article tells about the whole long period of Muscovy from 13th to 17th century.
• Stalin's cult of personality is not related to music at all. It is his regime (e.g., his reign) that influenced culture, and music in particular.
• "In the late 19th to early 20th centuries, exotic Russian, Caucasian, Gypsy and Italian styles—became very popular." - the sentence has no meaning after you remove "...romance songs". The term Romance songs, or Romances is rarely used in North America when applied to Russian Romancy. Recent recordings tend to prefer the use of art song.
• "Other instruments in common use include flutes (svirel), tambourines (buben) and percussive instruments such as the treshchotka." - isn't tambourine a percussive instrument too? Then why do you simply replace "unique" (e.g. that has no western equivalent) with "percussive"?
• "rigorous", an emotional word.
• "Tradition" should not always be plural.
• "Bardic" is not a proper genre name. Nowhere in sources "bards' music" is given as "bardic".
• "Musical culture is documented in ancient Rus'. Its most popular folk hero and character of several epics was Sadko" - Sadko was not the most popular folk hero of the whole Rus, but only of the Novgorod Republic, which you remove for no reason. Perhaps, only because it is not in modern Ukraine?
• Similarily, there's no reason to delete information about song lyrics that survived to this day.
• "Whereas the Orthodox church only allowed vocal music to be produced in church" - a large and unsourced claim. And erratic, because Orthodox church used bells.
• Tatu "grossing more money and popularity than any other Russian band to date" - a large and unsourced claim

The rest I have saved.Garret Beaumain (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The early period material is in Zguta's book on Skoromokhy. I also have a number of other books and this can be added, although much of the information is not very accurate from a Western perspective.

• "establishment" of Muscovy is not a decisive point of Music. Muscovy was established in 1283, and article tells about the whole long period of Muscovy from 13th to 17th century.

  May not be a decisive turning point in Music, but for the establishment of Modern Russia and Russian culture it is.

  At the time Muscovy was established, it didn't play any big role. Your edit is misleading, because it says that as soon as Muscovy was established, music has changed just because of it. It needs clarification.

• Stalin's cult of personality is not related to music at all. It is his regime (e.g., his reign) that influenced culture, and music in particular.

  I disagree. I can cite numerous cases where the Stalinist cult influenced and in fact directed music and musical taste.

  A person's cult and music censorship are two unrelated things. Article describes music censorship under Stalin, not that he was gloryfied. I restore the original context.Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• "In the late 19th to early 20th centuries, exotic Russian, Caucasian, Gypsy and Italian styles—became very popular." - the sentence has no meaning after you remove "...romance songs".

• "Other instruments in common use include flutes (svirel), tambourines (buben) and percussive instruments such as the treshchotka." - isn't tambourine a percussive instrument too? Then why do you simply replace "unique" (e.g. that has no western equivalent) with "percussive"?

  It is a percussive instrument although it is not really a tambourine in the modern context of the word. It is like calling a balalaika a guitar. Changes were made. The Treshchotka is not unique to Russia.

• "rigorous", an emotional word. - No.
• "Tradition" should not always be plural. I agree. It depends on its placement. There is tradition and traditions.
• "Bardic" is not a proper genre name. Nowhere in sources "bards' music" is given as "bardic". - Bards's music is not used in English. Bardic is .
• "Musical culture is documented in ancient Rus'. Its most popular folk hero and character of several epics was Sadko" - Sadko was not the most popular folk hero of the whole Rus, but only of the Novgorod Republic, which you remove for no reason. Perhaps, only because it is not in modern Ukraine?

  No. Your supposition is wrong.

  Then the original context should be restored. Your edit made it misleading about who is Sadko.Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• Similarily, there's no reason to delete information about song lyrics that survived to this day. - The term lyrics is used for pop songs. It is not correct to use this term here.
• "Whereas the Orthodox church only allowed vocal music to be produced in church" - a large and unsourced claim. And erratic, because Orthodox church used bells.

  Although contemporary organologist now classify bells as being musical instruments, the orthodox church did nt. It treated it like a signaling device like the horn on your car or a a flashing signal light.

  You're wrong. Specific compositions were written for bells. As your POV that "bells were not considered music" is not supported anything, it is better not to add such claims, they are quite big and potentially misleading. Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• Tatu "grossing more money and popularity than any other Russian band to date" - a large and unsourced claim

  I did not make ths claim. I have little interest in studying contemporary Russian pop music.

  But it is your version that contains it.Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

--Bandurist (talk) 16:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• I have to note, your english does not appear to be native. My first revert was inspired by yours "Archeologists have found examples these instruments" "Glinka was took his inspiration", "It was also saw the rise of individual pop stars", and some of this stuff you are still trying to add.Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• I propose the current version as a consensual. The most contraversional points are made unambiguous, and language errors of both sides are fixed. Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your English is very good, but it does contain "kalky" from Russian in some of the phrases and some Russian constructions that are atypical. I however, had some typos, main because of the interruptions I had during my writing. I will endeavour to check the typing before posting. Let us work toward consensus. My interests are in Early Russian music and also folk music, particularly organology. I am being pressured by Prof. Igor Matsiyevsky to come come to Piter to do defend a post-doctoral dissertation on ergo-organology there. --Bandurist (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• Not the whole article was written by me, and I agree it needed a style revision, but when I saw your typos, my first idea was that they are made by a russian user. I hope we may collaborate on this article together.Garret Beaumain (talk) 19:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If my Russian was as good as you English I would be very happy. Do you have the 6 volume Russian Music Encyclopedia? I picked up the 6 set on New York for $750 about 10 years ago. A bit pricey, but I had to have it.--Bandurist (talk) 00:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Deleted the line "The quantity of musical projects in modern Russia is enormous."

The quantity of musical projects is enormous in all developed countries, this isn't anything exclusive to Russia worth noting.