Talk:Morisco

Barbary Privateers

Muslim pirates had been routinely causing trouble, even devastation, to Christian coastal areas on the European side of the Mediterranean CENTURIES BEFORE THE MORISCOS EVEN EXISTED, let alone after their expulsion. One of the reasons they were expelled was the strongly held suspicion that they were informing the Barbary privateers where and when to launch a raid. It was the devastation these raids caused that made Spaniards furious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.57.15 (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Number of expelled

In my reasearch, somewhat unrelated, I have come across the number 300,000 a few times, never 3,000,000. At this time it is estiamted that there were only 7-8 million people living in Spain, and there is no way that a nation would expel nearly half of its population, or if there did, other events in Spanish history would point to such a massive exodus indirectly, which isn't the case. If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss.

I agree. The figure 3 million is false. 300,000 would be a more acceptable figure. Recent studies have shown that the expulsion was more of a failure than had previously been believed. Land owners refusing to follow edicts of expulsion fearing to lose their labourers, and moriscos simply moving to different regions of Spain taking up the identities of northern colonists.

Discontinuity

There is a major discontinuity between this article and Timeline of Muslim presence in Iberia. The way the Morisco are treated in the two articles you would think they were different people. Someone with better historical knowledge than myself needs to take a look and change one of the articles to bring the accounts into agreement. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Racist Term

The use of word 'Moro/Moor/Morisco' is in fact racist and is used by spanish racists when they refer to Moroccan people. Where do Moro's come from - if you really think about it?

Having lived in Spain I soon realised that the use of the word 'Moro' is in fact racist and is used by spanish racists when they refer to Moroccan people. A Moroccan man killed a Spanish man because he called him a MORO. This happened in the Spanish city were I was living at that time. Where do Moro's come from? Here's a clue (M-O-R-Occan/M-O-R-Occo) - if you really think about it why do people have to deny this when it is a fact? Every Spanish person I know do not deny this. I even have met a Spanish man who ha said that one of their ancesters are Moroccan too! The Spanish really confess that they are too proud to admit defeat by the Moroccans who so happen to belong to a culture and different religion and who so happen not to be white so to cover this up they start inventing words such as 'the moors or moors once conquered Spain'. This is not any different to the racist terms used to refer to black people and Pakistani people.

Historically, Morocco and Spain have always had a bittersweet relationship due to the very close proximity of the two countries, where they have each conquered some parts of each other's countries. During the Spainish Civil War the dictator Franco even recruited Moroccans to join the Spainish army refering them to being strong people in regards to their colonial presence before in Spain for 800-1000 years. In the last bloody conquest of Spain the Spanish forcibly converted anyone Muslim or Jewish to become Christian or they would be killed. So ironically as if in an act of revenge, soon after the re-conquest the Moroccan sultan, Moulay Ismail was responsible for enslaving around one million white europeans [1] Most of the slaves were Spanish and just as the Spanish treated the Moroccans during the reconquest, they forced the Christian slaves to convert to Islam even though no forced conversions were made when the Moroccans were happily living together with fellow Christians and Jewish in Spain. Acquiring jobs are made difficult due to racism especially in gaining Spanish citizenship even though Spain still colonize two Northern Moroccan cities - Ceuta and Mellila! Many Spanish people were born there and have lived there without problems in regards to difference of culture and religion and celebrate Christian festivals, have their own cemeteries all on Moroccan soil with absolute no problems! In contrast to this, there are around 5 million Moroccan people presently living in Spain and who are the largest Muslim group living in Spain.To even have a Mosque as a place of worship involves a lot of bureaucracy from the local governments as well as the many racist protests held by the Spanish people as well as an ever increasing presence of Nazi Spanish movements where they grafitti on walls ' Fuera Moros' - This means 'get out Moros', aimed at the Moroccan people whose increased migration to Spain has forced these Spanish racists to come face to face with their ancestral past whether they accept it or not.

In 2006 the Andalusian government had introduced a recent Article into the law to allow any Moroccan person to acquire Spanish citizenship with ease, as they are found to be descendents of 'Moriscos' (Moroccans whose ancesters are of Moroccan and Spainish mixed descent during the time of Islamic rule in Spain). The Spanish and Moroccan Academics and historians have called for equality for the Moroccan people since 1992. Currently Morrocan people have to live and work 10 years in Spain for them to gain Spanish citizenship, and only 5 years if a Moroccan is married to a Spanish person.

The Spanish tried energetically to remove historical facts as to the origin of the Muslims who ruled in Spain between 800-1000 years and have used the word Moro to hide the fact that it was the Moroccans who conquered Spain. The word 'Moro' has been extensively used within Tourist books and brainwashed into tourists to Spain to describe the historical Islamic past of Spain without realising that the word is racist. Soon after the Spanish reconquest, Spain colonized Philippines. Once again anything non-christian was eradicated to almost all parts of the Philippines where the people were forced to change their names to Spanish names and forced to convert to Christianity or be killed. No tactic was any different to how the Spanish treated the Muslims and Jewish living in Spain during the reconquest. The Spanish worked so hard to remove any evidence of pre-colonial times before colonization. The only part of Philippines which the Spanish couldn't be bothered to colonize and covert remains an Islamic part of the south of Philippines (Mindanao), where the filipinos remain Muslim. This is the greatest evidence to suggest that filipinos were once Muslim. The Spanish even had the cheek to call muslim filipinos 'Moros' which is still used in Philppines to describe a Muslim person! If you think about it, if a 'Moro' is supposedly a person of muslim/arab descent then how come the term 'Moorish' and 'Moro' are not used at all in the Middle East to describe anything Arabic or a Arab person? 81.157.160.4 (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are trying to say in what relates the present article. I didn't see a reference to any change, a suggestion, a correction, merely a lot of opinions on the pedigree of the Spaniards and the racism inherent to several terms.

In any event the terms "Moros" ("Mouros" in Portuguese) is commonly used in all schoolbooks. It describes the Berbers and the root of the name is easy to see in "Mauritania". Is it "racist"? Well, it describes an ethnic group and in general it does so when talking about open warfare, so I guess you can think of it as "racist" if you squint the right way - just has every other word that described an ethnic reality. As such it isn't a "slander" work by origin, it is historically well-defined and saying "Fuera Moros" expresses a wish that can be viewed as "racist" but the word itself is merely a qualifier.--Bellum sine bello (talk) 01:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

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What about "Mouriscos" on Portugal´s History?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.18.69 (talk) 21:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

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1. "Moro" comes after the latin word "maurus", as Morocco, Mauritania, etc. do.

2. Moors ruled _Granada_ nearly 800 years. In Asturias, northern Leon and northern Catalonia, from none to few years, depending on where. By 1000 aC, they had only the southern half of the Peninsula, and around 1200, only the kingdom of Granada.

3. The "last bloody conquest" the Spaniards mad, was in fact a REconquest. When the Moors invaded Iberia they did not find an empty land. Guess who were the former inhabitants.

4. The forced conversions happened sometimes, and sometimes not. The same thing is applicable to the Moor side.

5. Are you proud of your people enslaving Europeans? I must say that in medieval iberian Christian Kingdoms didn't exist such a thing as traffic of slaves. Not even for Moors.

6. You have forgotten too that before the expulsion, there were rumours that Moors were concentrating in North Africa in order to invade again Iberia, and the Moriscos sublevated, killing every christian they caught, man, woman or child, but only after castrating the men, raping the women and torturing everybody. It seems that you have forgotten too, that the Moriscos assisted the Berber and Turkish pirates as a fifth column. What do you thing the king should have done with a war in the Alpujarras were all the christians were being massacred? Maybe congratulating those Moors who were killing his people and giving them back Iberia? Hey, they were just spelled. In any other country of those times they would have been executed. And I reckon that they would been killed too in some countries of today ruled by the Sharia, and not for slaying thousands of innocents, but just for building a church.

7. Under Moor rule they were not "happily living together". Jews and Christians were Dhimmis, and there were periodical progroms. I wonder why the Jewish philosopher Maimonides had to run away from Al-Andalus, when he was living happily together with the Moors.

8. Adquiring jobs is difficult for everybody, but when you have broken illegally into a country, I guess it's a bit more. In the rest of the world, you don't get a job either, and besides you get spelled as an illegal alien. Be happy that millions of your fellow countrymen -as you have previously stated- can stay in Spain even without papers.

9. Ceuta and Melilla were already Spanish centuries before a country called Morocco even existed. They never have been Moroccoans, because they are older than Morocco itself. What makes you think then that they belong to Morocco?

10. How many churches are in Morocco?

11. Five millions? Officially there are 3.5 millions of Moroccoans in the whole Europe, so you admit that there are millions and millions of Moroccoans illegally staying in Spain. And you are so shameless to ask Spain to give them privileges for violating Spain's borders! A mosque, a shop, a church of whatever involves a lot of bureaucracy. Why do you think you are so special to skip in Spain what Spaniards, whatever their religion is, must do? And anyway, opening a church in Morocco is completely forbidden. I guess you wouldn't be happy if a bit of reciprocity is applied.

12. The Andalusian government hasn't made a right thing since it came to existence. Opening the door to people who say openly that they want to take over your land and rule over you usually is not a good idea.

13. I wonder why there were Muslims in Philippines. I thought Islam appeared thousands of kilometers far away in Arabia. I bet you whatever you want, that they were not islamized by the means of love and nice words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.16.30.100 (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

I see several problems in the head of the article

 "A morisco (Spanish) or mourisco (Portuguese), meaning "Moor-like", was a nominally Catholic inhabitant of Spain and Portugal of Muslim heritage.
Over time the term was used in a pejorative sense applied to those nominal Catholics who were suspected of secretly practicing Islam.
Similarly, converted Jews (conversos) who secretly held to Judaism were called marranos."

Firstly, there is no translation of the word, therefore the use of "moor-like" only contributes to misunderstanding.

Secondly, there is no clear reference to the fact that they were moors converted to christianism. However, it should be clearly termed, because the historical definition of morisco is: baptised moor who remained in the Peninsula after the Christian conquest. In addition, it is a term used since the 16th century (1502), the moors not converted into christianism and living in Christian territory were called Mudéjares. Thus, it is clear that only when the Christians forced them to conversion (1502) they received this name.

Thirdly, the term was used both for those who converted voluntarily and those who were compelled to.

Finally, I see absolutely no need to talk about the converted Jews. If any it should be included in the text. But actually I don't see the point of the reference nor the fact that this article is part of the WikiProject: Judaism. The jews were expelled in 1492, and the moriscos come to existence in the 1502 (as a group termed like that). Apart from being both in the Iberian Peninsula I see no other connexion. --Grimelhausen (talk) 20:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC) (I had edited it for clearness, hope it is understandable)

On last point an opinion only; I find it helpful to see briefest mention of [Marrano] on [Morisco] page (and reverse), for a link to quickly refer to each. They were both [conversos] as I understand the term, they shared centuries of interdependence, and then a mutual suffering connexion as victims of the [Inquisition] and ever-growing intolerance. That actions upon them in that era are separated by a decade does not need to preclude a link. The connexion can be seen as far more than "on the Iberian Peninsula at the same time." Thanks---Look2See1 (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Quinquis

I removed the following speculative trash:

"Scholars have suggested that the Mercheros (also Quinquis), a group of nomadic tinkers traditionally based in the northern half of Spain, may have had their origin among surviving Moriscos."

The older members of my family remember the "Quinquis" well. Most were quite pale or even very pale and quite a few were blonde and blue eyed. They were solidly, unmistakably of ancient European ancestry. There is no way, as a group, they were largely of Morisco descent, regardless of what "some scholars" may "think", that is, speculate.Provocateur (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Source

Hi, I would like to know, why , according to The Ogre, Collective work under the direction of Louis Cardaillac, Les Morisques et l'inquisition, Publisud, 1990, preface of the book cover is not an acceptable source ?!--Morisco (talk) 13:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)