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Does anyone have any specific changes to the article they would like to suggest? I think it would be easier to gain agreement for limited, incremental improvements. Maybe we could workshop a paragraph or two here. Is converage of the Orthodox perspective adequete? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I brought up changes that I want with my reasons, as a starter, in the section called "Giovanni33's Edits." That serves, as a start, for some changes I'm looking for. Giovanni33 21:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here is one of my issues. With regard to the language, this article was using the Wikepeaia narrative voice to speak from the perspective of the Church, or rather a supposed one true Christianity, which I have endeavored to change in keeping with NPOV policy. For example, see a clear remnant of the old version with this POV coloring that is in the current article it says: "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially Gnosticism..." This is problematic because there "heresies" also contained Christians, like the Gnostic Christians. They are only heretics from the POV of some Christians, sometimes being only a matter of one vote determining who would be branded as not being "true." Wikipedia should not take sides, but report objectively. Compare with my NPOV language that gets reverted: "The church dealt with other versions of Christianity by defining these beliefs as heresies." The fact is that there were different strains of Christians and the one version, a particularly intolerant one merged with state power and tried to extterminate its rivals. This fact describing the new orthodoxy merged with State power should be placed in this connection historical accuracy, not decontexualized under the persecutions section. Giovanni33 22:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The church dealt with other versions of Christianity by defining these beliefs as heresies." This seems to imply there are multiple, equally valid versions of Christianity, some that accept the divinity of Christ and some that don't, for example. Do you mean Wikipedia should state as fact that "heresy" is just a name people in power use as convenient?

"They are only heretics from the POV of some Christians..." surely it would be as objective to say they are only Christians from the point of view of some heretics.

"The fact is that there were different strains of Christians and the one version, a particularly intolerant one merged with state power and tried to extterminate its rivals." This is hardly neutral language. I suppose there are academics who hold that view, but I do not think the minority view should dominate. In fact, I think all of this is far too detailed for the general article on Christianity. It might go better on History of Christianity or Early Christianity. I do not think it belongs here. I would rather see the history section made less prominent, and maybe recast along the lines of KHM03's suggestion: First century, Constantine, Schism, Reformation, Ecumenism, link to History of Christianity. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the voice of Wikipeadia should not comment about which version of Christianity is valid or not valid. It should simply report that there were different groups (list them) that called themselves Christians (maybe even list their differences), and that then one group was able to get enough votes to brand the other one heretical. This is NPOV language. And, I disagree that it would be objective to say, "they are only Christians from the point of view of some heretics." To do that assumes the POV one group--the one with the power to enforce the labels. Why do we assume their voice? We should only report it from an objective 3rd person narrative. About the particularly intolerant nature of the new Christian church after it assumed power, this is not POV, it simply a fact. It should be properly attributed, and if anyone disagrees that this is a fact, then we can talk about it. It might be time to start getting out sources for this point. And, one sentence is appropriate in the history section that gives an understanding of an important defining characteristic of this winning version of Christianity as it would have a huge impact.Giovanni33 23:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Gio, WP should not judge on this, but it should report on historical events and on what historians say, reflect historical reality and research. Not to use the accurate epithet heresy in order to kowtow before some relativistic zeitgeist is not NPOV. And this isn't about getting enough votes (as I explaine above). But even if it were, do you think we should not note Helmut Kohl as the winner of the 1994 general elections in Germany? You could call him a loser as he lost votes, but ...

What you call "the particularly intolerant nature of the new Christian church after it assumed power" (not disagreeing with the reality behind this wording) is already covered, was already covered before you appeared.

A third person isn't objective, BTW. Str1977 00:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you agree that WP should not take sides but resport on historical events accurately based on what historians say that reflects historical reality and research. I never said not to use the word that was used against the losing Christians. We should stated that they were defined as hersies. That is what my version says. We should say who called them that, and maybe even why (noting differences probably goes beyond the space here), but we can list several groups as examples. And, then what they did to them. In this way we hold back our judgment and report what happened, from a NPOV. In some cases it was determined by a single vote. Regarding your analogy same thing (although it has limitations): we note what happened, that he won. We note how, etc. If after he wins, then then calls everyone he disagrees with "terrorists" do we assume they are terrorists and call them by that label too, as if it were a fact? No. We simply report so and so were label as "terrorists" by Kohl (maybe even give the reasons why, and and state their differences); then report the action that was taken. This is all basic NPOV langauge. I don't see why its a sticking point here. Giovanni33 01:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your proposal would bloat the section even further and would distort reality by kowtowing to relativism (as I explained above). And, please, could you provide evidence for your "single vote" legend? As regards to my analogy: we don't say according to the Bundeswahlleiter (Federal election supervisor) Kohl won the 1994 elections, we say he won the elections - and that despite the facts that the official result gives only votes and seats for parties. In our case: the relevant body issued decisions (in 2nd and 3rd century this was not one Council but a series of concurring decisions by bishops and councils) and we report them. Str1977 09:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tom, for pointing this out.

Heresy is a term used by historians. That it was heresy according to the Church is understood, but who is to decide if not the Church.

I don't know where Gio gets the legend that heresies were condemned by mere majority rule, let alone by one vote. He should cite such an example. All Councils decided with large majorities and mostly got the consent for decisions even of those who voted otherwise before (Nicaea had two opposing votes!). This is the way Ecumenical Councils still work. But, in the cases we are addressing here there was no one decision that condemned say Gnosticism or Marcion or Montanus - it was a quite longish and thoughtful process.

In any case, Gio's suggestion is permeated by a very narrow POV (even when in accord with the Zeitgeist): "In religion there is no right or wrong but only subjectivity." Or what else is it to say there were different versions of Christianity. The real Christ only taught this and that and he didn't teach the opposite. To call both alternative different versions is relativistic POV. We should report on how Christians then saw it and how scholars think about it, but not indulge in a relativistic mumbo-jumbo.

As for "the more intolerant" made it: again any nice legend to hit those who made it (as more rewarding victims) but quite different from the truth. The first bishop who used political power for his aims was Paulus of Samosata, a condemned heretic. The Arian party, in power during much of the 4th century, was quite more intolerant than any Catholic bishop. It was the Arian Constantius II who tore down many temples, it was the Arian Valens who persecuted Pagans, philosophers, Catholics. IMHO, Arian intolerance contributed to its eventual downfall.

Finally, regarding proposals for cutting back the history section. I am open to that but I don't see much room for that, based on the current version. What is it you would want to delete? (Please anwer the last issue at the bottom of the section). Str1977 23:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The resources list is way too long. In the past, we tried to keep it relatively brief...a theology resource or two, a couple of histories, etc. There's an inordinate amount from Gio's POV. I would ask that when the article is unprotected, Gio go through and pick two or three of the best of those to keep. The mainstream side could, of course, list dozens or hundreds of resources, but that wouldn't accomplish much. If Gio can do that, it would be nice. KHM03 14:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is fine with me. Infact, I'd even let you pick out the best three. The only reason why I went overkill with the sources was because I was being told that my view was original research or that it was fringe, etc. So, I piled on the sources. :) Giovanni33 21:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could you tell us which the three best were? Str1977 23:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm much too worried about other articles to make specific suggestions right now, but I'll let you know when I have the time. I mainly stumbled around here in thinking I saw other religion articles having an informative table, finding I was wrong, but intrigued by the whole protection thing.

KV 17:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "table"? What examples can you suggest? KHM03 18:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage of the filioque looks fine to me (for this article). Two small changes I would make in the Nicene Creed section would be removing the quotes from the phrases "sin and death" and "General Resurrection", as the quotes seem to suggest that these exact phrases appear in the Creed, while in fact they do not. "General Resurrection" could be replaced by "resurrection of the dead" since that's the phrase used, but it's not really a big deal. Wesley 18:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My view is as previously stated.Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to succinctly summarize that view for my benefit? Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I got this idea from KHMO3, who is not at fault if I misunderstood him, or express it badly. My concern is that the article as a whole has become too retrospective. I think we might limit the history section to five paragraphs: The First Century; Constantine; The Great Schism; The Reformation; and Modern Times. We would give up most of what is now in the second and fourth paragraphs, and some of what's in the fifth. This looks more radical than it really is. None of the material would be lost, just moved to History of Christianity or Early Christianity. I hope this new outline would be more accessible to the casual reader who is not interested in arcane theology and ancient politics. Having fewer handles to latch on to, it might also be more resistant to bloating. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tom, as for your proposals:

2nd paragraph: we need the spreading sentence IMO and Gio will certainly oppose the removal of the rest.
4th paragraph: we can get rid of Beowulf, but we cannot get rid of the conversion of Western and Eastern Europe.
5th paragraph: we cannot ommit the secular conflict with Islam.

I hardly see arcana theology in the current version. But please specify what you want to cut.

Str1977 09:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Add more Teachings, Summary of Christianity

There are many notable differences between this article and other articles such as Buddhism and Hinduism, which both provide much more information about the beliefs of those religions. The Christianity article, however, consists mostly of historical information.

I think that the sections on the teachings of Christianity should be expanded, with significant references made to the books of Luke, Acts, Romans, and Hebrews, which summarizes the Christian beliefs. Basic beliefs which should be discussed include:

Original Sin
The call of Abraham
The exodus from Egypt
The Ten Commandments and the Law
Fighting the indigenous people to claim the Holy Land
The birth of the Jewish nation
Priests and Judges
Prophecies concerning the Messiah
The 400 years of silence between the Old and New Testaments
The writing of the Septuagint
The birth of Jesus
Jesus defeats the devil's temptations in the desert
Jesus' public ministry
Jesus' death on the cross
Jesus' ressurection and ascension
The missionary journeys of Paul
The prophecied Second Coming

DanielMcBride 00:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on how its organized, I'd like to see a secular thought to balance the POV balance added to the interpretation and meaning of teachings where appropriate. I'm not sure if its appropriate but it's something we can think about how to do. Giovanni33 21:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with some of that; the history section here should be abrief overview...4 or 5 paragraphs hitting the major points (1st century, Constantine/Nicea, Great Schism, Reformation, maybe modern ecumenism), with a link to the History of Christianity article, where there's more space for development.

I also think we should talk about beliefs, and would concur with some of your suggestions. I guess I wouldn't go too far in talking about Abraham through the 400 years of "silence"...that's better discussed elsewhere (we should explain the strong connection to Judaism, of course, but concisely). A brief overview of Jesus & Paul, then important historic doctrines (Grace, Sin, Salvation, Incarnation, Trinity, Bible, Resurrection, Eschatology, Parousia). Worship, too, and a few modern things (ecumenism, maybe Pentecostalism).

Of course, we could redirect the article to Methodism, too. ;) KHM03 01:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think the history section should be kept promiment, if not expanded. To imbue Historical thinking in general is always a good thing. Hence my pushing for the Beowulf point. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can cut much of the history section (with the exception of Beowulf), as we even have to put quite some energy into defending it from further bloating (see above). However, I always thought that the history section should be moved down to just above the persecution section.

As for the points raised by Daniel, some are already mentioned in the article but could be expanded (Jesus' death on the cross, Jesus' ressurection and ascension, The prophecied Second Coming). Some are difficult to include (Jesus' public ministry or missionary journeys of Paul). I don't know as they might be too detailed a redendition of the Biblical account (Jesus' temptations). Even more questionable are retelling of the Old Testament history (Abraham, exodus, Ten Commandments ...) - if this should be done most summarily. "Writing of the Septuagint" is completely irrelvant IMHO, and a "400 years silence" is POV.

Str1977 09:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a pro History bloater, and I don't think we should move it down. It should be the starting point---to undertand what is, we have to understand what was. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and disagree. The History of Christianity is so important that it deserves its own article; but it should not dominate every article. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, not dominate just remain prominent. Giovanni33 23:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with KHM03 that the history section is too long. I wonder if it might enjoy broader support and be more bloat-resistent if it were shorter. I also think moving it further down the page is a good idea. If I could make only one change, I would make the article less retrospective. I also like Daniel's suggestions, subject to the constraints of space and neutral presentation. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I'm in the minority on this question, unless all my alleged sockets chime in, as Im sure they will in due time. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Giovani33, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at trollwatcher@gmail.com and then the following day make a note below confirming the title of the e-mail so that I can be sure its from you. Thanks. Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Giovani33, Apologies, that e-mail address should have read trollwatcher@hotmail.comTrollwatcher 17:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, has anyone noticed that text on this page has been moved around and in some cases deleted? Anyone know who's doing it ?

A Simple Question

Just a question about the users on the Christianity page and this discussion page:

Are you a non-Christian who habitually contributes to this page ?

If you are, would you mind noting your own userID below and optionally adding "yes" or "no" to the following question: Do you feel that the Christianity page succeeds in being NPOV and that the majority of principal contributors to it genuinely try to be NPOV ?

If you do not fall into the category being addressed, or want to add anything further, please start another section so as not to complicate responses.

I'm non-Christian, and I do post on the discussion every so often.... in the past week... and I think the whole problem with POV is that Christians and non-Christians alike are in conflict over points that neither documents, so no gain towards the truth happens. The Christians keep out Giovanni33's posts, he reverts them, neither documents and so we have deadlock. So, documentation is the key to any POV.

KV 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with that analysis; we all need to be better at documentation. KHM03 20:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for AnnH

AnnH, I have been reviewing your contributions on the question of sockpuppets. I notice references to similar IP addresses. I wonder if you could explain to us less technical types what this means and what significance it has.Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AnnH, I would appreciate your observations on the fact that almost all of the main contributors to this page are accused of being either sockpuppets or trolls, and that any apparently normal people (Sophia is just the latest of many dating from well before Geovani showed up) soon give up and go away. Why do you think that is ?Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trolls?

User:Musical Linguist|AnnH]]], I noted your observations that any user on this page could be a sockpuppet and also the criteria you use to start an investigation into whether they are. Just wondering if you've ever checked KHM03 and DJ Clayworth ? Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

KHMO3 and DJ Clayworth the same!? Nah! Have you never heard of the Documentary hypothesis?

Article talk pages

Article talk pages are used to discuss changes to the particular article.

Mediation requests are filed at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, and you can also contact the the Mediation Cabal for assistance.

Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 95: / Line 95: @@
 ::I guess I'm in the minority on this question, unless all my alleged sockets chime in, as Im sure they will in due time. [[User:Giovanni33|Giovanni33]] 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
-== A Simple Question ==
 Giovani33, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at trollwatcher@gmail.com and then the following day make a note below confirming the title of the e-mail so that I can be sure its from you. Thanks. [[User:Trollwatcher|Trollwatcher]] 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
+:Giovani33, Apologies, that e-mail address should have read trollwatcher@hotmail.com[[User:Trollwatcher|Trollwatcher]] 17:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
+By the way, has anyone noticed that text on this page has been moved around and in some cases deleted? Anyone know who's doing it ?
+== A Simple Question ==
 Just a question about the users on the Christianity page and this discussion page: