Talk:Christianity

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Is Jesus the as God, Almighty?[edit]

There are beliefs such as " The Holy Trinity ". Does this mean that Jesus is the same as God-the father? the Bible has stated clearly that, no lie was found in Jesus. Erudite2020 (talk) 16:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Denominations[edit]

As for Christian denominations, having met a variation of individual interpretations here on Wikipedia, there seems to be no consensus. That is why I would like to open this discussion. I have invited followers of various talk pages to this discussion. Feel free to extend more invitations. Here are a few preexisting, prominent article examples, commented further below:

Preexistent interpretations (6 January 2016)[edit]

Ordered by number of subdivisions.

1. Christianity#Major denominations:

  • Catholic
  • Orthodox
  • Protestant
  • Restorationist
  • Other

2. Christian denominations by number of members:

  • Catholic Church - 1,272 million
  • Protestantism - 800 million
  • Eastern Orthodoxy - 225–300 million
  • Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million
  • Anglicanism - 85 million
  • Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 42–48 million
  • Independent Catholic denominations - 28 million
  • Church of the East - 0.6 million

3. List of Christian denominations:

  • Catholic Church
  • Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Church of the East
  • Protestantism (note: including Anglicanism inter alia)
  • Restorationism
  • Nontrinitarianism
  • Independent Catholicism
  • New Thought
  • Esoteric Christianity
  • Racialist groups
  • Interdenominational (ecumenical) churches and organizations
  • Other

4. Template:Christianity, and Template:Christianity footer:

  • Western
    • Adventist
    • Anabaptist
    • Anglican
    • Baptist
    • Calvinist
    • Catholic
    • Charismatic
    • Evangelical
    • Holiness
    • Lutheran
    • Methodist
    • Pentecostal
    • Protestant
  • Eastern
    • Eastern Orthodox
    • Eastern Catholic
    • Oriental Orthodox (Miaphysite)
    • Assyrian Church of the East ("Nestorian")
  • Nontrinitarian
    • Jehovah's Witnesses
    • Latter Day Saint movement
    • Oneness Pentecostalism

5. Outline of Christianity#Branches of Christianity:

Potential questions[edit]

Hopefully we can reach consensus on some of these, yet split in separate, specific relevant talk pages likely needed. Feel free to add more for overview.
  1. What would be the minimal size (members, adherents?), theological tenets, and/or organisational structure to be considered to qualify as a Christian denomination?
  2. To what extent should the main groupings in article content be WP:Consistent with the content of the templates?
  3. How to group Christian denominations?
    1. Would there be a reason to group Christian denominations in List of Christian denominations by number of members by default, rendering List of Christian denominations by number of members essentially superflouos?
    2. Are the terms "Christian denominational family" and "branch of Christianity" the same thing, and are one or both of them encyclopedically relevant and neutral?
    3. Is the Catholic Church considered part of Catholicism (or Catholic)?
    4. Is Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy considered together part of "Orthodoxy"?
    5. Is Anglicanism considered part of Protestantism, Christianity or Catholicism?
    6. Is Independent Catholicism considered part of Catholicism or Christianity?
    7. Is Old Catholicism considered part of Independent Catholicism, Catholicism or Christianity?
    8. Is Restorationism and/or Nontrinitarianism considered part of Protestantism (for historical/theological reasons)?
    9. Is the Church of England considered as having separated from the Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Catholic Church, or Christianity in England (with equivalence for other national churches in Europe)?
    10. How to group defunct ancient and medieval sects and movements?

To edit after consensus[edit]

Likely incomplete, feel free to add more.

Proposed, relevant articles to employ a WP:Consistent WP:Consensus would be:

Naturally, there would also be potential repercussions for other specific relevant article contents, such as articles on individual Christian denomnations.

No, this is very not incomplete (what is the opposite of incomplete?)... only "Christianity" can be edited on the basis of WP:consensus here at Talk:Christianity. tahc chat 18:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
That is customarly, yes. However, you seem to cross-refer content on one location to other location? At least an overview here on a case by case consensus might help. Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:09, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Comments on above questions[edit]

Please add your comments here.

As for preexisting groupings, I am inclined to view alternative #2 as the most appropriate one. With one exception, though: having Anglicanism grouped under Protestantism. That would be in accordance (per WP:Consistency) with alternative #3 (List of Christian denominations), as well as Category:Protestant denominational families, Protestantism#Major branches, Christian denomination#Protestant Reformation (16th century), and other similar content on Wikipedia. The least accurate one I would say is alternative #4 with the two templates, with interpretations most far from those of other contents (mind for instance a global world where "Western", and "Eastern" hold less and less significance). - Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for preparing this. I agree that #2 is most useful and that #4 is least. I'm fine with Anglicanism as a separate category, but have no strong opinion. Cheers, Majoreditor (talk) 12:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Put really broadly, a denomination is two or more local churches that together are part of a single administrative entity, whether a federation of two or more basically independent churches (e.g. a Baptist convention) or a larger church that's divided into two or more local congregations (e.g. a Presbyterian denomination, or anything episcopal). If you have just one local group meeting, it's an independent church (see congregationalism and non-denominational Christianity), but if you have more, you're forming a group, and that's a denomination, regardless of membership. Of course, we can't list all of them; if there's a dispute over how big you have to be to be a major denomination, it wouldn't be hard to create a set of criteria, and implementing that would be easy if people agree. Also, bear in mind that nontrinitarianism long predates the Protestant Reformation; see Arianism and Sabellianism, both of which began in the third century. Nyttend (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Relevant discussions[edit]

I'd suggest changing bare "Catholic" or "Catholic Church" to "Roman Catholic [Church]". In English "... holy catholic [...] church" is common to both the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds and used by Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox alike. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:45, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Please place those kind of discussions at Talk:Catholic Church, Talk:Roman Catholic (term) or Talk:Catholic Church in Armenia. Thank you! Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:48, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

The Wrong Venue[edit]

This page is to discuss improvement to just one article: Christianity. It is not the place to discuss changes for any other page. Try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. tahc chat 17:35, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps you are right. Would Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Christianity/Core_topics_work_group/Topic_list or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard be the best place? If none objects, I will move this post to your suggested venue (and then have the later discussion on splitting up the overview in perhaps yet different venues). Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:28, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you.
The core topics list can never include any sort of complete list of Christian groups; it is only for a limited number of "top-important" Christianity articles-- and can thus only include a limited number of "top-important" Christian group articles.
For any discussion of more Christian group articles-- such as those on List of Christian denominations it has to be elsewhere... such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard.
I also have to agree with others that you have too many questions to cover at once, and while we could (in theory) reach consensus (for WikiProject Christianity) on what is not a Christian group at WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, we cannot have one list of "all" Christian groups that has to be uncluded for all Christianity articles. Some pages need to go into less detail for groups and other need to go into more detail for groups.
To sum up, maybe you should cover some items of WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, and cover other template-related questions afterward at the Talk: core topics list. If we consider the two sets of questions unrelated, then the two could be done at the same time. tahc chat 18:43, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Too many questions[edit]

This is just too much to discuss all at once. If people would even bother to start discuss these questions here, the discussion is likely to end up as a trainwreck. I would suggest to split the questions and discuss each of them at the most proper place. Secondarily, the questions are better to be translated as proposals. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:33, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Most of the points listed above have alrady been discussed ad-nauseum and the current articles reflect the consensus of WP editors. By nature the subject is contentious and it is likley impossible to find a resolution that will satisfy 100% of editors. We have done our best to be both fair and accurate. As the saying goes, "God is in the details", in this case literally so. Mediatech492 (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
It is indeed a contentious subject by nature. Many of the circumfered discussions has been up before. However, it is precisely this large area that the above mentioned content aim to circumfere (along with approporiate talk pages). There is legitimacy in proposing to harmonise them if just a little bit.
No solution will satisfy 100 % of the editors. Also, it will be an ongoing process. However, none of these are satisfying arguments against an open discussion. Judging from the above preexisting interpretations and the manner with which they are individually preserved in their different locations by a few highly determinated accounts, at least I thought the discussion would bring to light an overview of some conflict lines.
Not to say that they could then subsequently be divided in different individual talk pages if that would be the only way to go about. Yet possibly at least with some refreshed perspectives on for instance whether and how templates should reflect article content. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:34, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Agree. Way too much to swallow in one bite. Break into bite-sized chunks. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
I do agree with you. However, I still think the post may serve as an introduction to more specific cases which earlier lacked an overview. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2017[edit]

Quote: "Since that time, Christian theologians have been careful to emphasize that Trinity does not imply that there are three gods (the antitrinitarian heresy of hritism),..."

The link text should say "tritheism" instead of "hritism." 79.60.19.171 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I've looked at the link and done a quick Google search - this appears to be a reasonable request. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)