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Link to the Oral Gospel tradition[edit]

Dunn, and Ehrman have taken the position that Since the Oral Tradition was reliable, then the Synoptic Gospels (which were based on the oral tradition) are accurate. Then "Jesus did exist" and we have an historically "accurate picture" of this Jewish Rabbi from the line of Judah. Dunn 2013 p 360, Casey 2010 p 12 & Ehrman 2012 p 22, p 25, & p 21 p 117

Please see Talk:Oral gospel traditions. Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Link to Kingdom of Aksum in the lead[edit]

User:Pass a Method wishes to add a mention of Kingdom of Aksum to the lead. I reverted it, so it should be discussed here. The factoid wasn't mentioned anywhere else in the article, so that would indicate it shouldn't be in the lead. StAnselm (talk) 23:02, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

You clearly misunderstand wp:lead which gives other criteria for inclusion such as "prominent controversies", facts which are "trivial", or other info relevant to a particular paragraph or an important event. The keyword in the last sentence I will highlight: "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article". Note the word "significant" there? The info i added was merely a couple of words; this clearly means it does not qualify as being significant. It qualifies as being notable enough for the lead because its the first major empire in history to adopt Christianity. Pass a Method talk 23:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
If this fact is apparently worthy of being deemed notable enough for the lead, why isn't it already mentioned/linked in the main body of the article? Not even a few words. It should be noted first in the History section of the article. Otherwise the lead becomes clogged up with teeny tiny mentions of "notable" facts which don't have any place in the main article. -- Hazhk Talk to me 23:51, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
I was planning to add content to the body but StAnselm keeps me preoccupied with this though. Pass a Method talk 23:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Before I saw the reply I added information to the appropriate section. It might benefit from a slight rewording and expansion. -- Hazhk Talk to me 00:00, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
As it stands, it contradicts the statement in the previous section, which says "Armenia is considered the first nation to accept Christianity in 301 AD". StAnselm (talk) 00:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
In any case, Pass a Method, you should not keep adding content after it has been reverted. Instead, per WP:BRD, you should discuss it here first. StAnselm (talk) 00:55, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
If it's merely "trivia", then it shouldn't be in the lead anyway. If the Kingdom of Aksum is mentioned in the lead, then Armenia should be mentioned too, since (according to the body of the article) it is recognised as the first Christian nation. StAnselm (talk) 00:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
I have added Armenia to the lead. We still have the issue to sort out about the first Christian nation, and it is a matter of some dispute. StAnselm (talk) 03:14, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
On the other hand, that sort of discussion doesn't belong in this article, but in History of early Christianity. StAnselm (talk) 03:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
I also note that History of Christianity mentions Georgia in the lead as adopting Christianity in 319 - i.e. before Ethiopia. That means it should either be in the lead in this article, or this article's lead should omit the list of early Christian nations entirely, reverting back to the previous wording. I lean towards the latter option. StAnselm (talk) 03:20, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's helpful to name the first christian country in the lede, given the broader sweep of history; the lack of good evidence (although each country has had its own scribes carefully rewriting history); and the fact that "Armenia" then was a very different territory then to Armenia now (and then there's Osroene). Save it for a section further down in the article where complex issues can be discussed in more depth. bobrayner (talk) 03:48, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, if we mention Armenia, we need to be clear it's the "Kingdom of Armenia". StAnselm (talk) 03:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm also concerned about the use of words like "Nation"; we must be careful. Contemporary Armenia was not a nation-state in the modern sense (few kingdoms were), and christianity wasn't adopted by referendum. Before the age of mass media, efficient government, and mass education, popular religious activity in the provinces would lag a long way behind any proclamation from the palace... bobrayner (talk) 11:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan Africa[edit]

Similar to the discussion above, I also disagree with this edit. This is undue weight for the lead: Christianity has certainly not influenced Sub-Saharan Africa in the same way and to the same extent it has influenced Western civilization. StAnselm (talk) 20:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

If you revert two editors, it means you are editing against consensus. Pass a Method talk 11:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Anselm makes a good point. Two editors is not a consensus.--Rbreen (talk) 11:35, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
I think it's a matter of weight. Christianity certainly has shaped sub-Saharan Africa; we just need to find the best way to phrase that, relative to the influence on Western civilisation (where it has had much more time to put down deep roots). bobrayner (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Who was the other editor, Pass a Method? StAnselm (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
The bulk of the content you deleted from the body was added by Hazkh, and i slightly tweaked it. Pass a Method talk 19:34, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
I think you're referring to the Kingdom of Aksum discussion in the previous section. In any case, as that discussion demonstrates, that claim is disputed. StAnselm (talk) 19:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps a sentence about Sub-Saharan Africa can go at the end of the "Christian culture" section. StAnselm (talk) 20:22, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2014[edit]

Please change the sentence "The creeds further maintain that Jesus bodily ascended into heaven, where he reigns with God the Father." in the second paragraph of the abstract to "Christian doctrine maintains that Jesus was resurrected in the flesh before ascending to heaven, where he shares dominion over all creation with God the Father." For the following reasons: a) the current sentence is poorly phrased and is inaccessible to many readers–the definition of 'creed' as pertaining directly to Christian beliefs is not in keeping with the more common use of the word, which simply denotes belief in X. b) the wording of the phrase 'Jesus bodily ascended to heaven' is both awkward and communicates a potentially erroneous message: there is no consensus that Jesus ascended to heaven in the flesh after his resurrection, rather, scholars tend to agree that the body of Jesus was resurrected and visited with disciples on earth for a period of time before Jesus left earth for heaven. DCBlumenthal (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 19:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed[edit]

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