Talk:Christianity

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Changes to the article

Does anyone have any specific changes to the article they would like to suggest? I think it would be easier to gain agreement for limited, incremental improvements. Maybe we could workshop a paragraph or two here. Is converage of the Orthodox perspective adequete? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I brought up changes that I want with my reasons, as a starter, in the section called "Giovanni33's Edits." That serves, as a start, for some changes I'm looking for. Giovanni33 21:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here is one of my issues. With regard to the language, this article was using the Wikepeaia narrative voice to speak from the perspective of the Church, or rather a supposed one true Christianity, which I have endeavored to change in keeping with NPOV policy. For example, see a clear remnant of the old version with this POV coloring that is in the current article it says: "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially Gnosticism..." This is problematic because there "heresies" also contained Christians, like the Gnostic Christians. They are only heretics from the POV of some Christians, sometimes being only a matter of one vote determining who would be branded as not being "true." Wikipedia should not take sides, but report objectively. Compare with my NPOV language that gets reverted: "The church dealt with other versions of Christianity by defining these beliefs as heresies." The fact is that there were different strains of Christians and the one version, a particularly intolerant one merged with state power and tried to extterminate its rivals. This fact describing the new orthodoxy merged with State power should be placed in this connection historical accuracy, not decontexualized under the persecutions section. Giovanni33 22:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

"The church dealt with other versions of Christianity by defining these beliefs as heresies." This seems to imply there are multiple, equally valid versions of Christianity, some that accept the divinity of Christ and some that don't, for example. Do you mean Wikipedia should state as fact that "heresy" is just a name people in power use as convenient?

"They are only heretics from the POV of some Christians..." surely it would be as objective to say they are only Christians from the point of view of some heretics.

"The fact is that there were different strains of Christians and the one version, a particularly intolerant one merged with state power and tried to extterminate its rivals." This is hardly neutral language. I suppose there are academics who hold that view, but I do not think the minority view should dominate. In fact, I think all of this is far too detailed for the general article on Christianity. It might go better on History of Christianity or Early Christianity. I do not think it belongs here. I would rather see the history section made less prominent, and maybe recast along the lines of KHM03's suggestion: First century, Constantine, Schism, Reformation, Ecumenism, link to History of Christianity. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the voice of Wikipeadia should not comment about which version of Christianity is valid or not valid. It should simply report that there were different groups (list them) that called themselves Christians (maybe even list their differences), and that then one group was able to get enough votes to brand the other one heretical. This is NPOV language. And, I disagree that it would be objective to say, "they are only Christians from the point of view of some heretics." To do that assumes the POV one group--the one with the power to enforce the labels. Why do we assume their voice? We should only report it from an objective 3rd person narrative. About the particularly intolerant nature of the new Christian church after it assumed power, this is not POV, it simply a fact. It should be properly attributed, and if anyone disagrees that this is a fact, then we can talk about it. It might be time to start getting out sources for this point. And, one sentence is appropriate in the history section that gives an understanding of an important defining characteristic of this winning version of Christianity as it would have a huge impact.Giovanni33 23:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Gio, WP should not judge on this, but it should report on historical events and on what historians say, reflect historical reality and research. Not to use the accurate epithet heresy in order to kowtow before some relativistic zeitgeist is not NPOV. And this isn't about getting enough votes (as I explaine above). But even if it were, do you think we should not note Helmut Kohl as the winner of the 1994 general elections in Germany? You could call him a loser as he lost votes, but ...

What you call "the particularly intolerant nature of the new Christian church after it assumed power" (not disagreeing with the reality behind this wording) is already covered, was already covered before you appeared.

A third person isn't objective, BTW. Str1977 00:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that WP should not take sides but resport on historical events accurately based on what historians say that reflects historical reality and research. I never said not to use the word that was used against the losing Christians. We should stated that they were defined as hersies. That is what my version says. We should say who called them that, and maybe even why (noting differences probably goes beyond the space here), but we can list several groups as examples. And, then what they did to them. In this way we hold back our judgment and report what happened, from a NPOV. In some cases it was determined by a single vote. Regarding your analogy same thing (although it has limitations): we note what happened, that he won. We note how, etc. If after he wins, then then calls everyone he disagrees with "terrorists" do we assume they are terrorists and call them by that label too, as if it were a fact? No. We simply report so and so were label as "terrorists" by Kohl (maybe even give the reasons why, and and state their differences); then report the action that was taken. This is all basic NPOV langauge. I don't see why its a sticking point here. Giovanni33 01:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Your proposal would bloat the section even further and would distort reality by kowtowing to relativism (as I explained above). And, please, could you provide evidence for your "single vote" legend? As regards to my analogy: we don't say according to the Bundeswahlleiter (Federal election supervisor) Kohl won the 1994 elections, we say he won the elections - and that despite the facts that the official result gives only votes and seats for parties. In our case: the relevant body issued decisions (in 2nd and 3rd century this was not one Council but a series of concurring decisions by bishops and councils) and we report them. Str1977 09:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think changing the language for NPOV would bloat anything. Even if it did a bit, never was there a better reason to do so as its mandated by the NPOV policy. You did not explain how my simple language reflecting who said what, i.e. "The church defined as heresies,"is a distortion of reality, much less "mumbo-jumbo." What you call relativism is really just NPOV language, which is a form of relativism, quite true, but its quite needed. You have failed to provide any rational counter argument, other than simplistic name calling, which I think is telling of the weakness of your argument. To instead say (your version): "Christinaity (which is a set of beliefs), dealt with heresies" is not only POV in that it assumes the voice as one POV, but it also doesn't make sense since: Christianity is what people decide it to be, it's not an objective entity like a person that exists that can then "deal" with "heresies"---its people, its the institution, the church, which "deals" with other pepole, in this case other Christians because of their differing Christian beliefs by defining them as heresies,and thus giving them a basis to attack them. It was an attempt to get rid of differences both of non-Christians and among Christians. This is not only accurate and makes sense, but it's NPOV---reporting what who actually did what, without assuming their voice. Your version obscures reality with fuzzy language and is blatant POV. Your analogy as I explained does not fit since its not so simple as who won or lost, its about who gets the power to define another group. That is why we should report it by stating who defined who what, esp. if its negative. Those who were defined as heretics, certainly did not view themselves in such a light. In your analogy, the party that did lose, would agree they lost, no? It's clear cut and not subjective. That why when Kohl won in 1994, they didn't try to kill each other.

Irrelvant - the SPD lost regardless of whether they admitted that or not. And killing each other is totally beside the point. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

About the vote "legend" I prefer not to get into tangents, unless we are going to go into this level of detail in this aricle, although its still interesting. I know that the Council of Nicea made women "human" by *one* vote, too. I think the main point is that this was political. It was due to Constantine's desire for unity that he ruthlessly enforced his particular brand of orthodoxy among the various Christian groups - there was just no way he would allow them to be weakened as a political force through internal strife or disagreement. Constantine appropriated this authority for himself, ofcourse by declaring that he was a "bishop, ordained by God." That is why he logically moved first to eliminate the external challenges posed by paganism, destroying their temples and books. After that, he ordered that those Christian groups which had been deemed "unorthodox" also be eliminated, thus removing internal challenges. Very quickly, theological disagreements which had been a part of the Christian experience became "unchristian." For Constantine, religious differences were impediments to the power that had replaced Maxentius and Licinius. In this way, choice ("heresy") to be religiously different became defined as treason, a political crime, later to be punishable by death. This explains the differences in how Early Christianity treated "heresy". So long as Christianity itself was persecuted or powerless, greater freedom of thought was tolerated. However, once Chrisitanity became the state religion, disagreements over doctrine became threats to political and social stability in the empire. As a consequence, those who failed to uphold orthodoxy and fell into heresy were treated as enemies of the social order and tolerance of differences of opinion was no longer very great. Infact, the conflict between the some groups and the more "orthodox" Christians got so bad that open warfare erupted in cities like Constantinople and Alexandria. The violence was so extensive that historian Will Durant argued that more Christians died at the hands of other Christians in 343 than during all of the persecutions suffered by Christians at the hands of pagan Roman authorities.

About the other so-called "legends," I suppose its time to start to pull out references, again. So, I'll do that soon. First the POV issues need to be fixed, though, then I can present a list of some very important facts and argue why they are should be included, after I show they are facts as proven by cited sources. Giovanni33 09:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll keep my answer brief:

If "Christianity is what people decide it to be" then the question is who decides - and my proposal is to stick what we leave this to the Christians at the time. That doesn't mean that they were right (I guess the thought that Christianity might be wrong is not foreign to you) but only that they decided it that way. If you can provide a wording that includes both the decision making process in a concise manner without indulging in relativism.

As for the one-vote legend - I don't know what books you read but they are misleading you. There never was a vote that "made woman human", let alone by one vote. There was a local council (in Gaul) sometime in the 2nd century that had to deal with the question whether women had souls. The council forcefully affirmed that women had souls. That doesn't mean that this was denied before, only that the question wasn't asked before. In Nicaea nothing of the kind was voted on - Nicaea dealt with Arianism, the Easter date, some organisatory issues - none of this was decided by a margin of one vote.

You are somewhat right about how Constantine saw himself (and later Emperors cointinued in that vain) but that doesn't mean that it was right. It was a novel thought in the 4th century. He however did not eliminate Paganism etc. Also, yes, Constantine aimed at unity and hence was displeased with these theological dispute. He therefore pushed the bishops towards making a decision (moving the council from Ancyra to his residence Nicaea) but he didn't make that decision. It was a bit like the conclave, locking the relevant men up to force them to decide - but the decision is still theirs, and it was a decision in line with previous tradition (however with a problematic wording). After that, Constantine put all his force behind that decision but also tried to achieve maximal reconciliation, re-admitting Eusebius of N., Theognis of N. and even Arius, while banishing Athanasius, who to the Emperor was merely disturbing the peace. Though Athanasius' suspicion turned out to be right, Constantine doesn't look like your exterminator to me.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom, for pointing this out.

Heresy is a term used by historians. That it was heresy according to the Church is understood, but who is to decide if not the Church.

I don't know where Gio gets the legend that heresies were condemned by mere majority rule, let alone by one vote. He should cite such an example. All Councils decided with large majorities and mostly got the consent for decisions even of those who voted otherwise before (Nicaea had two opposing votes!). This is the way Ecumenical Councils still work. But, in the cases we are addressing here there was no one decision that condemned say Gnosticism or Marcion or Montanus - it was a quite longish and thoughtful process.

In any case, Gio's suggestion is permeated by a very narrow POV (even when in accord with the Zeitgeist): "In religion there is no right or wrong but only subjectivity." Or what else is it to say there were different versions of Christianity. The real Christ only taught this and that and he didn't teach the opposite. To call both alternative different versions is relativistic POV. We should report on how Christians then saw it and how scholars think about it, but not indulge in a relativistic mumbo-jumbo.

As for "the more intolerant" made it: again any nice legend to hit those who made it (as more rewarding victims) but quite different from the truth. The first bishop who used political power for his aims was Paulus of Samosata, a condemned heretic. The Arian party, in power during much of the 4th century, was quite more intolerant than any Catholic bishop. It was the Arian Constantius II who tore down many temples, it was the Arian Valens who persecuted Pagans, philosophers, Catholics. IMHO, Arian intolerance contributed to its eventual downfall.

Finally, regarding proposals for cutting back the history section. I am open to that but I don't see much room for that, based on the current version. What is it you would want to delete? (Please anwer the last issue at the bottom of the section). Str1977 23:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The resources list is way too long. In the past, we tried to keep it relatively brief...a theology resource or two, a couple of histories, etc. There's an inordinate amount from Gio's POV. I would ask that when the article is unprotected, Gio go through and pick two or three of the best of those to keep. The mainstream side could, of course, list dozens or hundreds of resources, but that wouldn't accomplish much. If Gio can do that, it would be nice. KHM03 14:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That is fine with me. Infact, I'd even let you pick out the best three. The only reason why I went overkill with the sources was because I was being told that my view was original research or that it was fringe, etc. So, I piled on the sources. :) Giovanni33 21:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you tell us which the three best were? Str1977 23:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion...Burton Mack, Edwin Johnson, and it would make some sense to add Elaine Pagels. KHM03 23:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm much too worried about other articles to make specific suggestions right now, but I'll let you know when I have the time. I mainly stumbled around here in thinking I saw other religion articles having an informative table, finding I was wrong, but intrigued by the whole protection thing.

KV 17:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "table"? What examples can you suggest? KHM03 18:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Coverage of the filioque looks fine to me (for this article). Two small changes I would make in the Nicene Creed section would be removing the quotes from the phrases "sin and death" and "General Resurrection", as the quotes seem to suggest that these exact phrases appear in the Creed, while in fact they do not. "General Resurrection" could be replaced by "resurrection of the dead" since that's the phrase used, but it's not really a big deal. Wesley 18:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

My view is as previously stated.Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to succinctly summarize that view for my benefit? Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

That it should be factually accurate, NPOV and helpful to people who may not know much about the subject. That's the answer to the question, but to help things along a few key points that I'd like to see mentioned are that there were many creeds in the Early Church. That the Nicene creed was not the earliest. That the term Nicene Creed is now used to denote any one of three different texts. That there should be some indication of the Orthodox position on the filioque (as per Orthoxox Wikipedia). I'd also like to see references inter alia to the books: The Making of The Creeds and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. Trollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I got this idea from KHMO3, who is not at fault if I misunderstood him, or express it badly. My concern is that the article as a whole has become too retrospective. I think we might limit the history section to five paragraphs: The First Century; Constantine; The Great Schism; The Reformation; and Modern Times. We would give up most of what is now in the second and fourth paragraphs, and some of what's in the fifth. This looks more radical than it really is. None of the material would be lost, just moved to History of Christianity or Early Christianity. I hope this new outline would be more accessible to the casual reader who is not interested in arcane theology and ancient politics. Having fewer handles to latch on to, it might also be more resistant to bloating. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Tom, as for your proposals:

• 2nd paragraph: we need the spreading sentence IMO and Gio will certainly oppose the removal of the rest.
• 4th paragraph: we can get rid of Beowulf, but we cannot get rid of the conversion of Western and Eastern Europe.
• 5th paragraph: we cannot ommit the secular conflict with Islam.

I hardly see arcana theology in the current version. But please specify what you want to cut.

Str1977 09:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Add more Teachings, Summary of Christianity

There are many notable differences between this article and other articles such as Buddhism and Hinduism, which both provide much more information about the beliefs of those religions. The Christianity article, however, consists mostly of historical information.

I think that the sections on the teachings of Christianity should be expanded, with significant references made to the books of Luke, Acts, Romans, and Hebrews, which summarizes the Christian beliefs. Basic beliefs which should be discussed include:

• Original Sin
• The call of Abraham
• The exodus from Egypt
• The Ten Commandments and the Law
• Fighting the indigenous people to claim the Holy Land
• The birth of the Jewish nation
• Priests and Judges
• Prophecies concerning the Messiah
• The 400 years of silence between the Old and New Testaments
• The writing of the Septuagint
• The birth of Jesus
• Jesus defeats the devil's temptations in the desert
• Jesus' public ministry
• Jesus' death on the cross
• Jesus' ressurection and ascension
• The missionary journeys of Paul
• The prophecied Second Coming

DanielMcBride 00:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Depending on how its organized, I'd like to see a secular thought to balance the POV balance added to the interpretation and meaning of teachings where appropriate. I'm not sure if its appropriate but it's something we can think about how to do. Giovanni33 21:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with some of that; the history section here should be abrief overview...4 or 5 paragraphs hitting the major points (1st century, Constantine/Nicea, Great Schism, Reformation, maybe modern ecumenism), with a link to the History of Christianity article, where there's more space for development.

I also think we should talk about beliefs, and would concur with some of your suggestions. I guess I wouldn't go too far in talking about Abraham through the 400 years of "silence"...that's better discussed elsewhere (we should explain the strong connection to Judaism, of course, but concisely). A brief overview of Jesus & Paul, then important historic doctrines (Grace, Sin, Salvation, Incarnation, Trinity, Bible, Resurrection, Eschatology, Parousia). Worship, too, and a few modern things (ecumenism, maybe Pentecostalism).

Of course, we could redirect the article to Methodism, too.  ;) KHM03 01:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the history section should be kept promiment, if not expanded. To imbue Historical thinking in general is always a good thing. Hence my pushing for the Beowulf point. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we can cut much of the history section (with the exception of Beowulf), as we even have to put quite some energy into defending it from further bloating (see above). However, I always thought that the history section should be moved down to just above the persecution section.

As for the points raised by Daniel, some are already mentioned in the article but could be expanded (Jesus' death on the cross, Jesus' ressurection and ascension, The prophecied Second Coming). Some are difficult to include (Jesus' public ministry or missionary journeys of Paul). I don't know as they might be too detailed a redendition of the Biblical account (Jesus' temptations). Even more questionable are retelling of the Old Testament history (Abraham, exodus, Ten Commandments ...) - if this should be done most summarily. "Writing of the Septuagint" is completely irrelvant IMHO, and a "400 years silence" is POV.

Str1977 09:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm a pro History bloater, and I don't think we should move it down. It should be the starting point---to undertand what is, we have to understand what was. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree and disagree. The History of Christianity is so important that it deserves its own article; but it should not dominate every article. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, not dominate just remain prominent. Giovanni33 23:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with KHM03 that the history section is too long. I wonder if it might enjoy broader support and be more bloat-resistent if it were shorter. I also think moving it further down the page is a good idea. If I could make only one change, I would make the article less retrospective. I also like Daniel's suggestions, subject to the constraints of space and neutral presentation. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess I'm in the minority on this question, unless all my alleged sockets chime in, as Im sure they will in due time. Giovanni33 21:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind covering history first, but we just should keep it to a general summary, with a link to the main history article. KHM03 23:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Request for Giovanni33

Giovani33, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at trollwatcher@gmail.com and then the following day make a note below confirming the title of the e-mail so that I can be sure its from you. Thanks. Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovani33, Apologies, that e-mail address should have read trollwatcher@hotmail.comTrollwatcher 17:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, has anyone noticed that text on this page has been moved around and in some cases deleted? Anyone know who's doing it ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trollwatcher (talk • contribs)

What does the page history say? Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Mr T, if you are referring to my edits - it is called archiving. The page was very large and I archived various sections [1] into the archives 24 [2] and 25 [3]. I moved your request for Gio, which would have been archived, down to the 2nd section called "A Simple Question" to ensure that Gio could read it. [4] Sorry, if I have confused you. Str1977 18:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

So, it now turns out that you have in fact been deleting material without consulting anyone else and also inserting bogus section headings. You have failed to post any note to indicate what you have done, and your response claiming that you've been merely archiving is, let us say, slightly less than the whole truth. I hesitate to call this troll-like behaviour, but no other description springs to mind. Trollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

A Simple Question

Just a question about the users on the Christianity page and this discussion page:

Are you a non-Christian who habitually contributes to this page ?

If you are, would you mind noting your own userID below and optionally adding "yes" or "no" to the following question: Do you feel that the Christianity page succeeds in being NPOV and that the majority of principal contributors to it genuinely try to be NPOV ?

If you do not fall into the category being addressed, or want to add anything further, please start another section so as not to complicate responses.

I'm non-Christian, and I do post on the discussion every so often.... in the past week... and I think the whole problem with POV is that Christians and non-Christians alike are in conflict over points that neither documents, so no gain towards the truth happens. The Christians keep out Giovanni33's posts, he reverts them, neither documents and so we have deadlock. So, documentation is the key to any POV.

KV 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with that analysis; we all need to be better at documentation. KHM03 20:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Questions for AnnH

AnnH, I have been reviewing your contributions on the question of sockpuppets. I notice references to similar IP addresses. I wonder if you could explain to us less technical types what this means and what significance it has.Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, I would appreciate your observations on the fact that almost all of the main contributors to this page are accused of being either sockpuppets or trolls, and that any apparently normal people (Sophia is just the latest of many dating from well before Geovani showed up) soon give up and go away. Why do you think that is ?Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, I noted your observations that any user on this page could be a sockpuppet and also the criteria you use to start an investigation into whether they are. Just wondering if you've ever checked KHM03 and DJ Clayworth ? Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

KHMO3 and DJ Clayworth the same!? Nah! Have you never heard of the Documentary hypothesis?

Article talk pages

Article talk pages are used to discuss changes to the particular article.

Not sure what you're getting at here. There has been a couple of weeks of intense accusations about sockpuppets, including a comment that that two IP addresses were similar - clearly designed to suggest something about the contributors in question. I'm wondering why you didn't make this comment during the weeks and pages of witch hunting - but you do now, as soon as someone pitches in in with a genuine question which might be of interest to all non-techies.

Mediation requests are filed at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, and you can also contact the the Mediation Cabal for assistance.

Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Many thanksTrollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Odd Goings On

At 11.45 on 18 February Str1977 appears to have deleted an entry on this page (ie the talk page) inviting new arrivals to visit this user page.

I wonder if it is permissable for any individual user to do this. I can't believe it is, otherwise anyone could simply delete anything they didn't happen to like. For example can Giovani delete any comments that he finds offensive or insulting ? Can I ? Shall we all start doing it ? Is there a formal Wikipedia policy on this ?

Also, if it is permited to delete material, can there ever be a justification for not leaving a note on the page mentioning the deletion, or even a note on the relevant user's talk page explaining it. Or is this just another example of one rule for members of the Federation and another for everyone else ? John1838 23:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did remove this attack on other editors: [5] Deleting personal attacks or spam is, as far as I know, in line with Wiki policy. BTW, your linked page and your edit summary is a personal attack as well, which goes against Wiki policy to say nothing about decent human behaviour. Apart from that, what purpose did your "link" serve in regard to editing this page? However, I am submitting this to the community - what do others think about this? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 23:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think John's contributions to this page are inflammatory and have nothing to do with discussing possible improvements to the article. I have often seen such remarks removed from talk pages by users, administrators, bureaucrats, arbitration committee members, and even, on one occasion, a steward. The vast majority of John's contributions are inflammatory attacks on other users, and do a lot to undermine his credibility as a genuine new Wikipedian here to build up the encyclopaedia, and with no axe to grind. AnnH ^(talk) 00:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Ann, Good to see you back. I guess you missed the following questions:

AnnH, I have been reviewing your contributions on the question of sockpuppets. I notice references to similar IP addresses. I wonder if you could explain to us less technical types what this means and what significance it has. Trollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, I would appreciate your observations on the fact that almost all of the main contributors to this page are accused of being either sockpuppets or trolls, and that any apparently normal people (Sophia is just the latest of many dating from well before Geovani showed up) soon give up and go away. Why do you think that is ? Trollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, I noted your observations that any user on this page could be a sockpuppet and also the criteria you use to start an investigation into whether they are. Just wondering if you've ever checked KHM03 and DJ Clayworth ? Trollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Editting the Article

Tom Harrison asked for my input on the article, and so I'll give what little I can. Now I should state that I am not Christian, though I was raised Roman Catholic, I'm Hermetic. These are the views of a non-Christian on the article.

The article is currently at 38.3kb, which allows it another 11.7 kb approximately to be within the realm of suggested Featured Article size. As such, it should be added to where there are multiple views.... to make the article NPOV, it must include several, well-documented POVs. History and Origins seems to be the part of the article under controversy, and so there should be multiple views put into that, perhaps seperated by different subheadings.

1. Specifically, I think that Hypathia might be mentioned, seeing as she was an early opponent of Christianity, specifically a pagan martyr on the subject, being killed in 1415 CE for preaching against the church.
2. Gnosticism is misrepresented in my opinion, as it wasn't so much a belief that secret knowledge would lead to salvation, but rather that raising one's knowledge of God (much surely coming from secret mystery schools) and through gnosis of God, and reality, came ascension. Also, calling it a heresy is rather POV, rather it should be said that it had been deemed a heresy by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which is what I believe happened, but also why we look for documentation.
3. The roots of Christianity beyond Judaism may want to be explored, or at least pointed to another article right away for Judaism's roots and so on. Much of that can be traced to Ancient Egypt and the Hermetic Mysteries actually, as explained in Hermetism#History.
4. The geography and split of the Roman Empire which was behind the schism in the church should also be explained.
5. There's no mention of Peter and Simon Magus, and their battle (which it is interesting to note that the text of the battle is pretty much the same in the mainstream Christian and Gnostic texts, only the names are flipped, including who won.)
6. The challenge of converting the northern tribes should be mentioned, and it's impact on the Church using a lot of idolatry it hadn't prior to that. The Catholic Church has statues of Jesus's crucifixion and the Orthodox their pictures, as I remember finding from a History professor, as a way of signifying to the new converts, who were seen as too stupid to understand, when to sit, stand, and kneel by way of "Christ on a stick", as the professor put it.
7. There were many cases of politics playing the reason for conversion to Christianity..... such as Poland converting for the sake of preventing invasion by Germany, and subsequently, the high importance of Mary in Poland who was seen as similar to the fertility goddess of high popularity prior. Such political moves changed how Christians saw Christianity.
8. There is also no mention of the Crusades and Inquisition, which is POV by way of whitewashing history. A primary facet of Medieval Christian was blind faith and fanaticism (coupled with the whole blind, not understanding what you say you believe, faith part which was prominent then) which led to horrible events. To keep it from seeming as POV against Christianity, mention the apologies put out.
9. The early Christian Church, according to the book of Acts, was a strict and authoritarian, communal society. This should be mentioned, at least simply in passing. The early ideals of the Church and the Christian societal values are important in understanding the rest.
10. The decline of a central Christian organization through Protestantism should be mentioned, noting primarily that many of the Christian religions of today would be considered heresies back then, and would have been wiped out.... without putting a spin on whether or not this is good or bad.

Look over Giovanni's changes, and try to find what might be valuable and could be implemented in...... I suggest you all go on a citation hunt to cite everything you possibly can in this controversial section. Myself, I'm working too hard on Hermetic stuff to bother with doing that for you, or to implement any of these changes should this become unprotected. Wherever there are multiple views, one Christian, one non-Christian....... try to show BOTH, noting the difference.

This should be a guideline to begin with, until you see too much information being a problem with size, then it's time to look at how to condense. A larger article called History of Christianity may also allow for less detail in that section if it is immediately linked as Main Article: etc.

Think over my reccomendations and I'll see what you discuss about them.

KV 05:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Vegita, let's see:

ad 1. Hypathia is mentioned (though quite frankly I believe she is given too much prominence) as an example for persecution, in the section on persecution (which I guess you haven't read).

ad 2. If Gnostic doctrine is misrepresented it should be rectified. However, calling Gnostics within Christianity a heresy is not POV - I have already argued this over at Talk:Early Christianity.

ad 3. We have already covered theories about non-Jewish roots and influences - any further bloating would be wrong, apart from the dubious nature of anything associated with Hermetism (with all due respect).

ad 4. Further explanations of the split should be very brief and concise.

ad 5. Well, some might call this battle a legend and I would call it a detail (and possibly a legend).

ad 6. KV, please be careful what you are saying. "Idolatry" is something else, even if what you wrote were accurate. And again to much detail.

ad 7. Again too detailed and partly POV and peculative (fertility goddess).

ad 8. The Inquisisition is covered, though not mentioned, in the persecution section. The crusades, which are no subject for whitewashing anyway, are mentioned in the history section in the context of the conflict with Islam. Your classification of Medieval Christians itself is POV and worse and complete inaccurate.

ad 9. Too detailed.

ad 10. We can mention that Christianity was broken asunder by the Protestant Reformation (but I don't know what others think), but the rest is pure speculation.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 08:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to trim the history section, not enlarge it. A lot of that could probably be effectively included at History of Christianity. In a brief overview, I can't see mentioning Hypathia, for instance; hardly more important than the Great Schism or the Reformation. Ditto Simon Magus, Poland/Mary. Also, if Hermetism influenced Judaism, it needs to be discussed at Judaism, not here or Islam or any other religion which had been influenced by Judaism (maybe it is already mentioned there). We should mention the Crusades, though, and perhaps the Inquisition. KHM03 11:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

List of suggestions

This is just a summary of where I think we are now; it is not an invitation to vote. If I have misunderstood anyone's suggestions, please correct me. This is meant to be a succinct list for reference, not a general statement of each editor's philisophy. I would appreciate it if additions could be kept to one or two lines. It might be easier to read if discussion took place in another section.

These are what people have suggested:

• Change "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially Gnosticism..." to "The church dealt with other versions of Christianity by defining these beliefs as heresies."
• Remove the quotes from the "sin and death" and "General Resurrection" and replace "General Resurrection" by "resurrection of the dead."
• Shorten the History section.
• Move the history section down the page.
• Add more on Christian teachings and beliefs.
• Add material on the secular interpretation of Christian beliefs.
• Shorten the list of resources.
• Include more in-text citations.

In addition to these, King Vegita has provided a list of suggested changes that we can refer to without my summarizing them here, but if someone wants to include them here for completeness, that's fine too. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)