Talk:List of current communist states: Difference between revisions

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Ride a dildo, Dianna.

North Korea can be removed, slut.

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+Ride a dildo, Dianna.
-{{WikiProject Socialism|importance=|class=}}
-{{oldafdfull|page=List of current communist states|date=[[2008-02-21]]|result='''no consensus'''}}
+North Korea can be removed, slut.
-==untitled==
-I've proposed some significant changes to this article, which I believe needs a complete overhaul in order to bring it to an acceptable standard. Principally, it requires a clear definition as to what you are specifically listing. There originally seemed to be about 3 statements as to what a "Communist state" was taken to be, and the list was not consistent with any of them. It must be a clear definition and refer to something concrete with as little room for interpretation/argument/debate as possible, otherwise it's not useful. If there's too much possibility for disagreement then the definition needs to be changed, or the list needs to be scrapped altogether. Remember, other well-defined lists and additional discussion can also be included in the article too. [[Special:Contributions/76.10.148.6|76.10.148.6]] ([[User talk:76.10.148.6|talk]]) 05:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-To this end, I think that the main list should be composed of something along the lines of "self-proclaimed Communist states that are widely perceived as such". I've used the term "Communist-labelled" states to disambiguate things a bit. [[Special:Contributions/76.10.148.6|76.10.148.6]] ([[User talk:76.10.148.6|talk]]) 05:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-The notion of "Communist/Communism" itself is not something you can take for granted either, there's considerable room for interpretation and so it's important to clearly define what is meant when you use the term when defining a "Communist State". Not in detail, however - that belongs in the [[Communism]] article. What goes here should be in line with that and other related articles. Is "allegiances to Marxism-Leninism" sufficient/appropriate? What about poor Mao? [[Special:Contributions/76.10.148.6|76.10.148.6]] ([[User talk:76.10.148.6|talk]]) 05:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-List of Communist Governments needs updating and the corresponding political parties. Also need to better define what a "Communist Government" is. [[Special:Contributions/76.10.148.6|76.10.148.6]] ([[User talk:76.10.148.6|talk]]) 05:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-Removed: ''Moreover, during the Cold War era, various countries, especially in Africa, copied superficial aspects of the Soviet dominant-party system without necessarily embracing the Marxist-Leninist ideology of the Communist parties.'' Interesting statement but not relevant  to a list of '''current''' communist states. [[Special:Contributions/76.10.148.6|76.10.148.6]] ([[User talk:76.10.148.6|talk]]) 05:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-China and Vietnam CANNOT be regarded as "Communist states". These countries are ruled by phony "Communists" who have BETRAYED the working class and have completed the restoration of capitalism. They are CAPITALIST countries, with a capitalist economy and authoritarian governements, much like Nazi Germany or Chile under Pinochet.
-RaduFlorian[[User:RaduFlorian|RaduFlorian]] 06:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
-::I'm quite surprised people would agree with you. PRC and Vietnam are indeed "Communist". It doesn't matter how or why some meanies came and seized power from the emperors and killed their own rich, East Asian history. The name of the government parties, even on the cities' articles, say, "CPC" and "Vietnamese Communist Party Secretary". It is a well-known fact, Communism also disables you in the way that you can't express yourself. Everyone has to wear solid color shirts and cut their hair one way, and all the freedom expanse of the internet we have come to take for granted just wouldn't happen there, as they enjoy spying on their people.
-::I do question how accurate this map is, however, because I thought Russia was Communist as well? <font color="#fe2c96">★</font><b><font color="#ba6afd">[[User:Dasani|Dasani]]</font></b><font color="#fe2c96">★</font> 20:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
-::::If you really think communism has anything at all to do with shirt colors and hair styles, then you obviously shouldn't have anything to do with this article. I assure you, if judging by those standards, China is certainly not a communist state. Internet censorship is a result of something else altogether, unrelated to their socio-economic systems. And before you get too nationalistic, we have something called the PATRIOT Act here, which is exactly spying.
-::::In any case, I agree a more specific definition of Communism is needed for the sake of this usefulness of this article. As it stands, all we know is that the ruling parties ''described'' themselves as such. As far as actual content goes, it doesn't say much. User:Gotank 13:07, 07 December 2009 (UTC)
-I'm very much inclined to agree. What, after all, is an NPOV definition of a "communist state"? Communism is not, necessarily, the same as an iron-fisted dictatorship or authoritarian government or whatever (though the Soviet Union was a famous example, communism originally intended to make society better, not kill millions), and this article should reflect that. It should also reflect the opinion that there are no current communist states or that no communist states have ever existed. Only then can this article be called NPOV.[[Special:Contributions/199.126.134.144|199.126.134.144]] ([[User talk:199.126.134.144|talk]]) 04:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
-So what are we to do then, re-name this as "List of current phony communist states"? Even though they are run by parties claiming to be communist, it is as it is. A truly communist state in it's purest form will never come about anyways. [[User:That-Vela-Fella|That-Vela-Fella]] ([[User talk:That-Vela-Fella|talk]]) 22:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
-:A "truly communist state" would be a contradiction in terms. A communist society would be stateless. [[User:Aridd|Aridd]] ([[User talk:Aridd|talk]]) 16:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
-::And that's why [[List of socialist countries|articles like this]] [[Talk:List_of_socialist_countries#POV_on_Steroids|epitomize POV]] and shouldn't exist.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.241.214.138|71.241.214.138]] ([[User talk:71.241.214.138|talk]]) 04:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-Under the header States Undergoing Significant Market Reforms:  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.29.31.147|84.29.31.147]] ([[User talk:84.29.31.147|talk]]) 14:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-Lao PDR does not officially refer to Marxism-Leninism anymore  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.29.31.147|84.29.31.147]] ([[User talk:84.29.31.147|talk]]) 14:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-==North Korea==
-I see that North Korea has been removed from the list twice, on the startling grounds that it is "no longer communist".  I'm sure there is some kind of technical justification for that - probably that Juche has nominally superceded Marxism-Leninism - but that's pushing a point of pedantry to absurdity.  If North Korea is not an example of a communist state in the commonly understood sense, then what is?  Certainly not the PRC.  At the very least it's bizarre that North Korea warrants no mention ''at all'' in the article, but Cyprus apparently does!  [[User:Sofia9|Sofia9]] ([[User talk:Sofia9|talk]]) 05:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
-:It has been mentioned from several sources that it has dropped all references to communism [http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/09/25/2009092500395.html on here] and [http://www.rthk.org.hk/rthk/news/englishnews/news.htm?main&20090929&56&615725 here also], along with some other news sites. More current info can be also found under the [[Constitution of North Korea]]. As for Cyprus, it's still governed by the communist party it has, as well as the ruling President who belongs to that party. [[User:That-Vela-Fella|That-Vela-Fella]] ([[User talk:That-Vela-Fella|talk]]) 22:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
-::I still think that's a weak argument.  If we were only relying on self-definitions, strictly speaking no country defines itself as a 'communist state', but in practice North Korea comes closer to the definition than most others.  But the broader issue is that there's a total lack of consistency here - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state#List_of_current_communist_states].
-::As for Cyprus, yes I fully understand why it warrants a passing mention, I just think it's utterly ludicrous that Cyprus is there and North Korea isn't!  Strictly speaking AKEL in Cyprus are just one party in a three-way coalition, so it's an over-simplification to say the country has a communist government in any case. [[User:Sofia9|Sofia9]] ([[User talk:Sofia9|talk]]) 04:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
-:::If bothered to look at the sources, N. Korea now is seen as a "Military-First' state & unless you or anyone else got a stronger source(s) saying otherwise, then by all means show it here. As for that other article, it has now also been corrected, yet others have to be also updated. I just don't understand why some still say they are communist while it's own government has rejected it (even though residual elements are still seen there). [http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE58R1BE20090928 The facts speak for itself], it WAS communist, but not presently. [[User:That-Vela-Fella|That-Vela-Fella]] ([[User talk:That-Vela-Fella|talk]]) 12:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
-::::Right, I'll try to overlook the gratuitously rude comment you made at the start, because I can assure you that I read your 'sources' thoroughly before I made my previous comment, and indeed read several other articles on the same topic, and it was on that basis that I reached my firm conclusion that North Korea should continue to be on this list.  The key point is that the new constitution still defines North Korea as 'socialist', which is precisely the self-definition that all countries defined ''externally by the west'' as communist states have used down the decades, along with prescribing a leading role in the state for the ruling party.  It effectively brings it into line with Laos which as I understand it long ago removed all references to Marxism-Leninism and communism from its constitution, and yet mysteriously remains on the list in spite of your strictures.  I think what's happened here is that a couple of editors have got terribly excited upon reading about this constitutional change, and on a point of pedantry (the curse of Wikipedia) have decided that NK must go from the list.  But once the initial hoo-ha dies away that decision is going to look a bit silly - especially in the light of the current status of some of the other countries that remain on the list.  I won't personally reverse your edit either here or on the other article unless others come to my support, but in my view it is utterly inevitable they will both be reverted at some point in the future.  Because, indeed, the facts do speak for themselves. [[User:Sofia9|Sofia9]] ([[User talk:Sofia9|talk]]) 23:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
-== idea about removing "current". ==
-I think that we should have removed "current" and completed it with another section: Former communist-lead states. I think we also shall include those that ruled together with others or was elected.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/62.16.168.251|62.16.168.251]] ([[User talk:62.16.168.251|talk]]) 16:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-== Merge to [[Communist states]] ==
-* Agree. [[User:Lycurgus|Lycurgus]] ([[User talk:Lycurgus|talk]]) 02:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
-* Agree. '''''[[User:Killdec|<font color="black">КĐ</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Killdec|<sup><font color="red" size="2px"><b>♥</b></font></sup>]] 18:26, 12 December 2010 (UTC)